Player Features and Ideas Discussion

wait! wait!
are you guys saying that after this buff to missiles we will need 3 rig slots and 1 med slot to get the stats you now have with only 3 rig slots???

if so, man. this is a hell of a buff

im more surprised they left HAM's at the same range as torps...

i don't know i don't fly any missile ship bigger than a frigate

And the golem dudes running double rigor II, with no third rig are stuck

I suppose I can take solace in being right about a nerf with these mods.

And that I fly all the marauders lol

Here's something to lighten the mood: Gunship Pr0n!

I'm quoting this only because you seem to be assuming that a T2 flare is better than a 3rd T1 rigor.



There's a single problem with your math: you haven't looked at the missile formula. Improvements to explosion velocity literally do nothing outside of point-range kitey PvP.

Examples of situations, and quick blurbs on the impact of explosion velocity:

• Long-range fleet battle on a non-bonused hull. Explosion velocity would be a big problem here. Which, I imagine, is why there are no fleets that fall into this category.
• Long-range battle on a non-battleship bonused hull (such as the Cerberus). Explosion velocity is almost entirely a non-factor.
• Short-range battle. Short-range means you will have tackle; specifically, web. Explosion velocity is a complete non-factor already.


• Capital ships (solo or fleet). Thanks to Fozzie, explosion velocity will never be a problem, though you still won't be able to apply full damage to stationary triage'd carriers.
• Sniper-range solo PvP. This is not a situation that exists in Eve, nor one that ever will. Not only is travel time a major factor, but your target will find it easy to break whatever tackle they're under and warp off.
• Close-range non-Golem solo PvP. Once again, you have tackle, which means scram+web, which means explosion velocity is always a non-factor.
(this is already covered by the above, but Stealth Bomber solo PvP, not only will explosion velocity always be a non-factor, but this play-style will get hit particularly hard by the explosion radius nerf)


• Cruiser+Frigate point-range kitey PvP. Explosion velocity matters a lot, and your math is accurate
• Close-range Golem solo PvP. Against frigates and frigates alone, explosion velocity would help, and your math is accurate.
• Sniper Golem fleet. Nobody runs these today, so who knows, maybe this could actually benefit from explosion velocity bonuses if they want to take on Ishtars. But I personally don't see such a fleet being run un-ironically.

It won't have the same efficiency now. You've run the numbers: you get 11% less damage application after stacking penalties, and, most importantly, there's literally no way to get that 11% back. An 11% damage nerf is huge, not "pretty much [the] same".

And all of this is ignoring the fact that if stacking penalties are added, Crash will also be stacking penalized. Everyone who uses capital missiles uses Crash, and a good chunk of the people using large missiles also do. Drug usage is more subjective though, since you can't approximate it from just Jita + Amarr sale volume.

Yeah the range... I think I agree with you there, the missiles that are hurting won't benefit much from it but lights and stealth bombers just become stupid with range buffs so maybe they should drop that or there are other options:

Someone above mentioned the mordu's legion bonus which is a great idea, so a script that halves flight time and doubles missile velocity could be unique and useful without affecting range. Maybe not as strong as that but just for example

Another idea could be make the low slot modules only affect missile velocity ~12%? and the mid slot mods only affect damage appliaction. I know some minmattar ships have extra lows but really 10-12% isn't much when you realize that rigs can already do 15-20% and this would be at the cost of raw damage or tank or speed, all significant trade-offs for range.

Or like you say just remove the range bonus altogether and let people use rigs for that like they are now, and make these significantly better at dmg application than the existing pwnage set ups.

It's less strange when you look at their killboards, okay for everyone else to use but not good enough for them... except nobody else is using them either.

t2 flare is better than t1 rigor unless target is extremely small for missile type, scrammed and highly immobile.

Don't even try to blame me for not knowing missile formula when you have no understanding on how it works.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Missile_Damage

There're 3 key components in play:

1) 1 - its role is to never let missile do more damage than it does according to its stats (i.e. make sure damage multiplier never goes more than 1)
2) target signature / explosion radius - its role is to not let "big" missiles reliably hit frigates for 100% of damage even when they're highly immobilized
3) ((target signature * missile explosion velocity) / (missile explosion radius * target velocity)) ^ (ln drf / ln 5.5) - it defines missile application vs relatively mobile targets

Unless you're brawling and applying multiple webs or shooting big ships with small missiles, 3rd part of missile formula will be in play.

For example, you're shooting mwd'ing vexor w/o links or TPs applied (870 sig, 1677 speed) with HML tengu with 3 rigors (2 t2, 1 t1 - 57.1 explo rad, 122 m/s explo velocity using CN ammo) or 2 t2 rigors and 1 t2 flare (67.2 explo rad, 146 explo velocity).

1st component - constant of 1
2nd - 3 rigors: 870÷57.1 = 15.23, rigors + flare: 870÷67.2 = 12.946
3rd - 3 rigors: ((870×122)÷(57.1×1677))^(ln(3.2)÷ln(5.5)) = 1.072, rigors + flare: ((870×146)÷(67.2×1677))^(ln(3.2)÷ln(5.5)) = 1.085

Okay this is probably bad example because both components are bigger than 1 and will be capped by 1st part of equation, let's use full skirmish-linked plated ishtar (1698 m/s, 332 sig) instead:

1st component - constant of 1
2nd - 3 rigors: 332÷57.1= 5.8, rigors + flare: 332÷67.2 = 4.94
3rd - 3 rigors: ((322×122)÷(57.1×1698))^(ln(3.2)÷ln(5.5)) = 0.53987, rigors + flare: ((322×146)÷(67.2×1698))^(ln(3.2)÷ln(5.5)) = 0.546

As you can see, for rigors + flare multiplier is slightly bigger. Now, why is that happening and when rigors are actually better?

- 3x Rigors are better strictly when you're shooting target which has signature radius (after all TP modifications) smaller than your missile explosion radius AND it is highly immobilized (usually means scram + couple of webs on frig w/o AB vs HMs). For brawling HAM ships which want to kill frigs faster and don't have tons of external TPs 3rd rigor can be better indeed.
- 3rd part of equation comes in play when ships are moving freely, and all of its 4 main variables (missile ev, missile er, target sig, target speed) are mutually multiplied/divided, it means that increase by 2 times in explo velocity is equal to 2 times increase in target signature, decrease by 2 times of target speed or decrease by 2 times in explosion radius. If converting rigor value to flare equivalent, you get 1÷(1−0.15) = 1.176 factor for t1 rigor, and 1.2 for t2 flare. T2 flare clearly wins, it provides bigger multiplier, which will be raised to a positive power, and resulting number will always be bigger for 3rd part of equation.

Get your math straight dude. I will repeat comparison (and let's assume base value is 100, although it doesn't matter which we pick for base):

TQ 2 t2 rigors + t1 rigor: 1÷(1−0.2)÷(1−0.2)÷(1−0.15) = +83.8% accuracy
TQ 2 t2 rigors + t2 flare: 1÷(1−0.2)÷(1−0.2)×(1+0.2) = +87.5%
Penalized 2 t2 rigors + t1 rigor: 1÷(1−0.2)÷(1−0.2×0.87)÷(1−0.15×0.57) = +65.5%
Penalized 2 t2 rigors + t2 flare: 1÷(1−0.2)÷(1−0.2×0.87)×(1+0.2) = +81.6%

For case with t2 rigors + t2 flare, 181.6÷187.5 = 0.968533333 (-3.15%)
For case with just 2 t2 rigors, 151.33÷156.25 = 0.968512 (very same -3.15%)

Your issue here is that you compare bonuses, but not final values. +1% to dmg will not be 2 times weaker than +2% to dmg, they will differ by a factor of just 1.0099 - which is completely different significant order.

Also you have to remember that this is all just multiplier for 3rd part of formula, which is then raised to a power, which further reduces difference between different values. For example:

151.33^(ln(3.2)÷ln(5.5)) = 30.715979323
156.25^(ln(3.2)÷ln(5.5)) = 31.393875425

1st is less than 2nd by 2.2%. This almost always depends on missile type (different drf values), but difference in final result of 3rd part will always be smaller than difference in its primary factor before raising to a power.

No, this all taking stacking penalties into consideration. No, crash will not be stacking penalized because it belongs to Implant category (which is immune to penalization).