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Warfare & Tactics

 
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People complaining about boosters

First post
Author
Domino Vyse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2015-06-26 09:22:32 UTC
When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2015-06-26 09:24:57 UTC
I am aware of both the cap and that they can be caught. HOWEVER the fleet warp changes mean that punting a properly fast tackle onto them becomes impossible.

So a booster moving at the speeds I've show mean that, unless the pilot is literally dead at their desk, it'll never be caught, ever.

What was challenging today steps into the realms of wholly unreasonable and unrealistic when the fleet warps change. CCP even acknowledged this as a problem with the changes.

CCP Larrikin wrote:
Aebe Amraen wrote:

2. My second concern is about a very particular, but rather common, scenario: trying to catch cloaky, nullified, nearly-unscannable off-grid T3 links ships. In some configurations these can perma-AB at over 1km/s, aligned out to another safespot. The current best practice is to get a prober with perfect skills, a bonused ship, and virtue probes and have him warp a squad of fast tackle (T1 frigates/interceptors or specialized tackle bombers) on top of the boosting ship, hoping that one of them will be able to catch him before he reacts and warps away.

Catching these ships is already extremely difficult, and will be nearly impossible under the proposed changes. No bonused scanning ship will be able to tackle them, as they have at a minimum 5s lock delay after decloaking. No unbonused ship will be able to scan them down. In the time it takes for the prober to warp to the target and then have the tackle squad warp to him the 1km/s probing ship will be out of range.

I have interests on both sides of this scenario, having hunted PL off-grid boosters with my perfect scanning alt during the recent Catch wars and with two of my own perfect combat boosting alts. I guess I won't mind having my boosting alts be effectively invulnerable for a while, but it does seem like poor balance.


This is a really good point. Awesome post in general. I don't have an answer for you just yet, but we're working on it.


From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5812875#post5812875
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#63 - 2015-06-26 09:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Domino Vyse wrote:
When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn?


Wouldnt bother me, i dont mind the mechanics as they are.

But i accept that suspect timers/weapons timers would bring boosts into play for people who are willing to put as much effort into catching them as their owners did in creating them.

Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :)
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#64 - 2015-06-26 09:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
afkalt wrote:

What was challenging today steps into the realms of wholly unreasonable and unrealistic when the fleet warps change. CCP even acknowledged this as a problem with the changes.


Unreasonable to dedicate a ship to tackling another ship that is dedicated to boosting?

[Helios, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Co-Processor II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Scan Rangefinding Array II
[empty med slot]

Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe

Small Targeting Systems Stabilizer II
Small Targeting Systems Stabilizer II

3.7 seconds recal, will probably take that long to warp from its initial warp in 150km away so align, decloak as you hit warp, land and tackle.

If he warps, he would have warped before or after any change.

In regards to the warp changes themselves, which is massively off topic, i have to say i dont know what problem they are trying to fix. I dont see a lot of people asking for this change and its stated goals of increasing individual piloting, making bombing harder seem to be edge cases when considered against the effect this will have on every single fleet movement, compounded by ships warping at a wide range of speeds.

Its just a buff to the fleet that is stubborn and refuses to warp in to an enemy and instead waits for them to warp in piecemeal.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2015-06-26 09:59:40 UTC
The margin for error is now too huge. The best way was slingshotting proper tackle hulls over, that's dead. You'll not get anywhere near them now, too much warning. It's questionable that you'll even be able to land close enough tbh. Maybe with your own links, heat, faction point.

You know it, I know it and CCP knows and acknowledges it.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#66 - 2015-06-26 10:09:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
afkalt wrote:
The margin for error is now too huge. The best way was slingshotting proper tackle hulls over, that's dead. You'll not get anywhere near them now, too much warning. It's questionable that you'll even be able to land close enough tbh. Maybe with your own links, heat, faction point.

You know it, I know it and CCP knows and acknowledges it.


What are you talking about?

As i have said 3 times.

- Warp to scan result
- Wait for booster to reach 150km
- Align to booster
- Run another cycle on probes (~8 seconds)
- De-cloak and warp (3-4 seconds)
- Land within 15km of booster with OH sebo and point.
- Point, or watch him warp away.

If he didnt see the probes, its likely he wont see the cov ops.
If he did see the cov ops, its likely he would have seen the ceptor.

I dont really like the fleet warp changes, but saying boosts are uncatchable is just not true.
Zappity
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2015-06-26 10:16:27 UTC
OGB will go on grid and I will be glad. Off grid boosters are ridiculous from a game play perspective - it is so clearly in opposition to CCP's direction toward inclusive and active play that it will certainly be nerfed.

In the meantime I would love for links to get a weapons timer to reduce the pathetic gate and station hugging.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Domino Vyse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2015-06-26 10:18:38 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Domino Vyse wrote:
When will you nerds accept the fact that CCP doesn't give a damn?


Wouldnt bother me, i dont mind the mechanics as they are.

But i accept that suspect timers/weapons timers would bring boosts into play for people who are willing to put as much effort into catching them as their owners did in creating them.

Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :)


I fully agree with that.

Its just a shame that CCP are useless. Same goes for the way that they have abandoned FW, which also shares the fact that certain accounts will get unsubbed if they fixed it.
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#69 - 2015-06-26 10:56:30 UTC
What's a booster

@lunettelulu7

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#70 - 2015-06-26 14:29:33 UTC
If he's aligned to spot A, you can also warp to your covops at respective range...
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#71 - 2015-06-26 15:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Ares Desideratus
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :)

I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is.

Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb.

An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous.

I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something.

Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#72 - 2015-06-26 15:03:10 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:

I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something.

Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.


Nah, that would just make everyone look like a "trusoloer".
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#73 - 2015-06-26 15:30:48 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :)

I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is.

Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb.

An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous.

I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something.

Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.


So your saying logistics dont help with the fights or that boosters dont help the fleet?
Logistics and boosters change the outcome of an equal fight, they dont to much for blobbers tho
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#74 - 2015-06-26 15:30:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
[quote=Domino Vyse]Putting boosts (and logi) on killmails is really just to appease the lazy vocal millennial soloists a little. So they can at least take some solace in that they are much better than the skilless guy that just killed them even though he is in a pod reshipping and that guy still has his ship :)

I hope you realize how unreasonable that line of reasoning is.

Killmail hoaring should only be possible when you activate a module on somebody's ship, or damage or affect their ship in some way, for example with a smart bomb.

An argument could be made that a logistics ship should show up on the killmail if the person they were healing dies (for all I know they already do). For a logi to show up on a killmail for which they had no direct interaction would not make any sense. But the idea that a neutral alt who just happens to be in fleet with a person, and just happens to giving his fleet members in the same system warfare bonuses, should show up on killmails that his fleet members get, is simply ridiculous.

I would argue that per each kill that happens in this game, only one player should be on said killmail, or earn a "kill" from it on their killboard, and that is the player who actually got the kill. In other words, get rid of killmail hoaring so that kills actually mean something.

Now THAT would be a meaningful change if we are trying to appease trusoloers.


Of all the batty ideas out there regarding boosters, bringing them onto mails is one of the sanest. If mails are supposed to be an honest representation of what happened then its very fair to expect boosters to be there given their contribution. As for killmail whoring, ill say yet again, any contribution, not matter how minor is useful. It isnt misrepresented, its very clear to see at a glance who were the main participants in an engagement.

If it were possible (which is probably isnt), id even go s far as to put specialist roles on the BR too. Perhaps someones roll is just to stay out of range and jam a loki to minimise the hostile fleets ability to apply damage. Somehow that griffin should be recorded even if that loki did not die since its role is very important.

There is a mechanic for POS killmails that already does something like this. If you are on the POS km, you are automatically registered on the modules km even if you didnt shoot them (assuming they die). If fleet members could be grouped and treated the same way a cluster of pos mouiles and tower are, then batle reports would be a better indication of events.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#75 - 2015-06-26 15:48:35 UTC
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.
Domino Vyse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#76 - 2015-06-26 16:33:36 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.


Crosi uses links btw. He supports links on killmails.
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2015-06-26 16:50:44 UTC
Domino Vyse wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.


Crosi uses links btw. He supports links on killmails.


I know, and he has no issues with bringing them onto killmails. I'm referring to those who do use links, but don't want them on killmails.
Domino Vyse
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2015-06-26 19:09:09 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Domino Vyse wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.


Crosi uses links btw. He supports links on killmails.


I know, and he has no issues with bringing them onto killmails. I'm referring to those who do use links, but don't want them on killmails.


And what are you saying about them?
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#79 - 2015-06-26 19:45:23 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.


Whether the killmail shows my booster or not, I don't care. Not even uploading kills to begin with, boosters on killmails is just asking for lame excuses to show to your friends to reason why you lost an engagement.

It's like whining about 1v(1+Falcon). We do it, love to do it and deep down we know we suck at scouting as shown by evidence A (the killmail).
Estella Osoka
Perkone
Caldari State
#80 - 2015-06-26 20:47:19 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Only people who don't want booster alts to show up on killmails, are the ones who are using booster alts; but claiming they fly solo. They know once the lie is revealed, no one will 1v1 them when they see their booster is in system.


Whether the killmail shows my booster or not, I don't care. Not even uploading kills to begin with, boosters on killmails is just asking for lame excuses to show to your friends to reason why you lost an engagement.

It's like whining about 1v(1+Falcon). We do it, love to do it and deep down we know we suck at scouting as shown by evidence A (the killmail).


Except the Falcon shows up on the killmail. A boosting alt does not, even though it is providing increases to your ship's performance by providing better armor resists, shield resists, longer points, etc. Thereby making a 1v1 matchup very lopsided, even though the 2 involved have same skills.

So when the one person loses and sees a killmail, he doesn't know why he lost; but if the killmail showed the OGB, then he would know exactly why and would be better prepared in future engagements against that opponent.