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Tengu, Golem, Rattlesnake or Navy Raven for Solo PvE Missions 4/5

Author
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-06-23 20:57:24 UTC
Lady Nadra wrote:

Or the Rattlesnake as many others suggest, but I find it kind of cumbersome. It will clear out a room of npc's faster then just about anything with great skills though, if you micromanage it so your drones don't shoot things they can't track etc.


Use a gecko and you will not have to manage it in any way, easily hit frigates (i use tracking script :P) and i see no point in sniping when its so easy to tank the spawns.

Release Gecko (aggresive ofc) and start shooting anything larger than frigates with your fury missiles.
Lady Nadra
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2015-06-23 21:11:02 UTC
Meh I used the gecko against angel frigs with two faction drone omni tracking links, with tracking scripts, and it still couldn't hit the frig after about 20 tries, so i gave up and released light drones.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-06-23 21:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
HoruSeth wrote:
afkalt wrote:
If you have the skills, golem is the winner


because you say that or why? Roll

I mean no doubt the race is between RS and Golem, but for me RS is a little in advance.

@Rexxorr: You don't get anywhere close to eft dps because of what? Maybe you fly the passiv fit? I know the MJD-Sentry fit is very pupolar due to the fact you can be very lazy with it. But try an active fit, where you can brawl as well and get back with your opinion. :) And please do not use Gecko ;)



It can tractor as it goes, it has a better cargo bay (rogue slave trader), it's less micromanagement, it's got MJD cooldown bonuses, it has proper omni damage, missile speed buffs mean volley counting is non-existent at under 100km ranges and it can and will one shot elite angel cruisers. AND it natively warps faster.

Marauders are the final word in L4 mission running if you're killing all the things. Vargur is the best, golem is still very strong.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#24 - 2015-06-23 22:18:18 UTC
some lv5s have neut towers so a passive tanked rattlesnake is a good option. then again a triple ASB golem might work, although it is super easy to probe out, so you may not want to use one.

I would pick between the rattlesnake and the golem. Personally I don't like flying the rattlesnake as the missiles are slow and the delayed damage from them is really annoying to deal with. With how much damage the sentries can do it makes it hard to reliably volley count. Each volley that doesn't connect is dps lost and isk out of your pocket. plus I feel like the ship is slow, and that can be especially annoying with sentry drones, if you have to burn to a gate. Golem is not bad, but Kinda boring to fly. and kinda low dps compared to some other ships. On the plus side that probably gives you time to loot/salvage. Maybe the new missile tracking comp thingys will help with that a little.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#25 - 2015-06-23 22:26:55 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
Lady Nadra wrote:

Or the Rattlesnake as many others suggest, but I find it kind of cumbersome. It will clear out a room of npc's faster then just about anything with great skills though, if you micromanage it so your drones don't shoot things they can't track etc.


Use a gecko and you will not have to manage it in any way, easily hit frigates (i use tracking script :P) and i see no point in sniping when its so easy to tank the spawns.

Release Gecko (aggresive ofc) and start shooting anything larger than frigates with your fury missiles.

gecko has to fly to each target, that wastes a lot of time and lowers DPS. when you are cleaning up the last few ships alive and have to move to a gate it is useful, but outside of that I'd rather stick with sentry drones.
afkalt wrote:
HoruSeth wrote:
afkalt wrote:
If you have the skills, golem is the winner


because you say that or why? Roll

I mean no doubt the race is between RS and Golem, but for me RS is a little in advance.

@Rexxorr: You don't get anywhere close to eft dps because of what? Maybe you fly the passiv fit? I know the MJD-Sentry fit is very pupolar due to the fact you can be very lazy with it. But try an active fit, where you can brawl as well and get back with your opinion. :) And please do not use Gecko ;)



It can tractor as it goes, it has a better cargo bay (rogue slave trader), it's less micromanagement, it's got MJD cooldown bonuses, it has proper omni damage, missile speed buffs mean volley counting is non-existent at under 100km ranges and it can and will one shot elite angel cruisers. AND it natively warps faster.

Marauders are the final word in L4 mission running if you're killing all the things. Vargur is the best, golem is still very strong.

vargur dps and range is kinda meh. The dps is not bad at all, but once you factor in falloff it just looks weak.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-06-23 23:19:37 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

gecko has to fly to each target, that wastes a lot of time and lowers DPS. when you are cleaning up the last few ships alive and have to move to a gate it is useful, but outside of that I'd rather stick with sentry drones.


When your drones have to travel any meaningfull distance, the ships are not orbiting you anywhere close to the range sentries have problems tracking. Its not like i use my gecko at 70km, most ships either get close enough that travel time mean next to nothing or they stay at ranges where tracking is irrelevant.

Lady Nadra wrote:

Meh I used the gecko against angel frigs with two faction drone omni tracking links, with tracking scripts, and it still couldn't hit the frig after about 20 tries, so i gave up and released light drones.


I think you need to train some more drone skills, i have not seen more than 2 miss in a row for my gecko and most of the time its 2 hit frigates. When a frigate orbit you the gecko follow behind it and have very little problem landing hits, most missies are when it MWD in range. If we were talking something like a Dominix or Ishtar i would support using light but light drones vs RS bonused Gecko is not even a close match, land 1-2 hits and any non elite frigs are dead and most elite frigs are well into armor. Find a mission with 2 equal frigs, time how long they last against Gecko and lights (kill other stuff while they close orbit)
Lady Nadra
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2015-06-24 00:04:01 UTC
It could be that the gecko just has a problem vs angel frigs since they are faster and smaller? The frig i had the gecko targeting was orbiting at 3km, and it just couldn't hit it. That wasn't the only time it was having issues either, but it did connect other times.

I have about 4 mil sp in drones and there isn't a skill that helps drone tracking to my knowledge. My gecko had 1.5 rad/sec tracking, which is pretty far from terrible.
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-06-24 03:12:15 UTC
Physik wrote:


1. Tengu
I fly that at the Moment. Active Tank. Heavy Missile Launchers. No Drones. Can do Level 4 Missions (including Angel Extravaganza). But the kill speed fells a bit slow. Just a feeling. I salvage afterwards.

Couldn't comment as I haven't flown this ship

2. Golem
My First Idea because salvagind while destroying sounds great (if you have the time while punching the enemys). It should save a lot of time if you clean the rooms directly.
Equipped with torps, micro jump drive, bastion mode and small drones. Jump in a group, activate bastion mode, kill and salvage. Active Tank but not stable.

I use a cruise Golem and it performs fine. Cap stability is not necessary and while salvaging as you go is fine, coming back with a noctis is faster.

[2. Rattlesnake
Second Idea. Long Range, Cruise Missiles and Sentry Drones. Micro Jump drive. Jump out, snipe, jump, snipe... salvage afterwards. Sounds slower but if the killspeed is better maybe its worth it. I have a bit of a problem with the cpu if I choose an XL Active Shield Booster.

High dps boat. Sniping works well with cruises. Missile application is poor due to dual weapon system, should you choose to increase your drone tracking and not use as many target painters.

Brawler RHML are an option. You can use 2x rigor/1x flare and use furies that apply well to everything but frigs or stick with t1/faction heavy missiles for anything not a BS/BC but have the option of triple warp speed rigs that let you warp around as fast as a Mach. I'm still testing this option.


3. Navy Raven
Putting it Number 3 because it is popular and a lot of threads recommend it but i personally do not see any advantage over the golem. Maybe I looked wrong.

The only advantage of the CNR vs the Golem is that the CNR can remain mobile while the Golem usually fields a small out of bastion tank(huge tank while in bastion) for much better application through target painters. Also note that the hull application bonus + rigs work and is not impacted by targets beyond 45 km(at which point your target painter may miss)

Conclusion:
What would you do? I actually use several ships for missioning just to keep things interesting. I haven't flown the CNR after I got the Golem though, just because of the ammo savings.
What is the fastest ship (overall time) for solo PvE Missions 4/5 - Mach or a RHML warp speed rigged RS probably. I don't use the mach though since I'm not trained into guns and dislike the reload time on the RHML. I find that I have enough in my clip to kill 2 BSs before I need to reload. It's probably more efficient to kill cruiser/frigs with the RHML and pew pew BS/BC with sentries? I'm still in the RHML testing phase.
What is the safest? 9/10 the Golem but the other 1/10(should you lose internet connection) is that if in bastion mode and you disconnect, it gets dangerous. It is stuck in place for the full cycle of bastion and will not attempt to warp out until Bastion ends.
(I want it to be fast and safe. So if I loose Internet Connection or it is a bad connection, I do not loose me ship immideatly).

Thanks for your help! :)
I hope my questions are at the right spot.!

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2015-06-24 10:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:

vargur dps and range is kinda meh. The dps is not bad at all, but once you factor in falloff it just looks weak.


It's actually not, I charted it in EFT. I was (genuinely) disgusted at how well it puts the DPS out.

This is from memory, don't string me up if the values are not precise.

What I found was that a 425mm kronos was better beyond somewhere in the 50-60km ballpark, inside that range, the vargur smokes it (and everything else).

The thing about that range cut off is if things are sitting outside that, unlikely in the main for most missions, a hit of the MJD puts you into better DPS range and has almost no cooldown to a marauder.

I'll try and toss a chart together over lunch and post here.

Here we are: http://i.imgur.com/2LJ9RsJ.png

Paladin green
Vargur light blue
Golem red
kronos dark blue (rails, I know...I know...the point is projection)

I slightly mixed up fittings in terms of damage mods (var/paldin have 2/4 faction, kronos is 3/4 faction and golem is 3/3 faction) but dont want to redo chart tbh.

Ammo was all faction short range and fury for the golem

Target is a non prop mod caracal (141 sig) at a pretty light angle because rats are dumb.

So the paladin does very slightly edge the paper DPS but since the vargur gets to pick ammo, for me it wins every time.

They're all fits I use, no weird shitfitting going on to exaggerate (golem has >4< painters)
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#30 - 2015-06-24 12:06:04 UTC
If in doubt, hop on SiSi and try them all out. This way you get a picture of how the ships fly and feel like in our hyper-fluid and you can choose and pick what you like.

Make your fit there and export it to file so you can import it back on TQ and have it ready for your next shopping-spree.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2015-06-24 14:32:50 UTC
afkalt wrote:

I'll try and toss a chart together over lunch and post here.

Here we are: http://i.imgur.com/2LJ9RsJ.png

Paladin green
Vargur light blue
Golem red
kronos dark blue (rails, I know...I know...the point is projection)

I slightly mixed up fittings in terms of damage mods (var/paldin have 2/4 faction, kronos is 3/4 faction and golem is 3/3 faction) but dont want to redo chart tbh.

Ammo was all faction short range and fury for the golem

Target is a non prop mod caracal (141 sig) at a pretty light angle because rats are dumb.

So the paladin does very slightly edge the paper DPS but since the vargur gets to pick ammo, for me it wins every time.

They're all fits I use, no weird shitfitting going on to exaggerate (golem has >4< painters)


That graph doesn't really tell the full tale as it's against a cruiser hull. Switch the ammo to t1/faction/precision and you'll apply full damage with the Golem(I.E do more damage with a lower alpha missile).
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-06-24 14:47:13 UTC
afkalt wrote:
[quote=Chainsaw Plankton]
Here we are: http://i.imgur.com/2LJ9RsJ.png


Target is a non prop mod caracal (141 sig) at a pretty light angle because rats are dumb.


This may be a noob querstion, but what does the "Transv: 976 m/s" and "Rad: 1891" m/s at the bottom of the picture mean?
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-06-24 14:52:20 UTC
[/quote]
This may be a noob querstion, but what does the "Transv: 976 m/s" and "Rad: 1891" m/s at the bottom of the picture mean?[/quote]

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Transversal_and_Tracking
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#34 - 2015-06-24 15:04:42 UTC
I have 3 out of 4 of the Marauders. Vargur is the best I own (Vargur, golem, pally). Slap a nano, MWD, and MJD and you never have to be out of range for more than 15 seconds. Insane tank for any level 4. Pally and Golem are both really good also, just not as mobile.. If you're flying a marauder in a l4 the way to go is MTU and salvage drones. I almost never need light drones in any of them. Drop the unit as soon as you start shooting, then release the drones. Just remember to recall them for spawns with frigs. Still feel Machariel + Noctis is the fastest way to go in l4's. If you can do missiles + drones another good one is Typhoon Fleet Issue. You have to spend some ISK and skillpoints for that one.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2015-06-24 15:35:50 UTC
Amanda Chan wrote:
afkalt wrote:

I'll try and toss a chart together over lunch and post here.

Here we are: http://i.imgur.com/2LJ9RsJ.png

Paladin green
Vargur light blue
Golem red
kronos dark blue (rails, I know...I know...the point is projection)

I slightly mixed up fittings in terms of damage mods (var/paldin have 2/4 faction, kronos is 3/4 faction and golem is 3/3 faction) but dont want to redo chart tbh.

Ammo was all faction short range and fury for the golem

Target is a non prop mod caracal (141 sig) at a pretty light angle because rats are dumb.

So the paladin does very slightly edge the paper DPS but since the vargur gets to pick ammo, for me it wins every time.

They're all fits I use, no weird shitfitting going on to exaggerate (golem has >4< painters)


That graph doesn't really tell the full tale as it's against a cruiser hull. Switch the ammo to t1/faction/precision and you'll apply full damage with the Golem(I.E do more damage with a lower alpha missile).



Yes, but that's a hassle and downtime from shooting. Mostly the golem is capable of alphaing NPC cruisers, however what this means is that there is a lot of wasted damage potential. Something like the vargur and its fast cycle time reduces the impact of these and not needing to change ammo between targets saves precious seconds. It actually gets worse at frigate level, but I picked cruiser because a golem can still alpha them.

I'm such a fan of the vargur because of that damage line, selectable damage means any mission is a go, fast cycle time for popping frigates is outstanding. A machariel WILL rival it, however is typically less tanky and chews through ammo almost twice as fast making faction ammo a substantially higher overhead.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-06-24 15:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Quote:
Quote:

This may be a noob querstion, but what does the "Transv: 976 m/s" and "Rad: 1891" m/s at the bottom of the picture mean?


http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Transversal_and_Tracking


Transversal is logical number, no idea at what range the lsited transversal is but it have to be fairly close to get almost 1k ms transversal from a 287 ms ship.

Rad is generaly an angle measurement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian and have nothing to do with m/s (meter/second) as its listed on the linked screenshot.
Amanda Chan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-06-24 16:10:22 UTC
[quote=Haatakan Reppola]
Quote:

Transversal is logical number, no idea at what range the lsited transversal is but it have to be fairly close to get almost 1k ms transversal from a 287 ms ship.

Rad is generaly an angle measurement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian and have nothing to do with m/s (meter/second) as its listed on the linked screenshot.


1) Here it is on a silver spoon - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage. You should consider skilling Googlefu atleast to level 2.

2) I don't know if you know how math works...m/s is pretty important for calculating a Radian in this game. Without knowing the m/s you would only know 1 our of the 3 required points to calculate an angle. Having m/s gives you 2 points to plot after 1 second of travel.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-06-24 16:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Haatakan Reppola
Amanda Chan wrote:
[quote=Haatakan Reppola]
Quote:

Transversal is logical number, no idea at what range the lsited transversal is but it have to be fairly close to get almost 1k ms transversal from a 287 ms ship.

Rad is generaly an angle measurement, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radian and have nothing to do with m/s (meter/second) as its listed on the linked screenshot.


1) Here it is on a silver spoon - http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage. You should consider skilling Googlefu atleast to level 2.

2) I don't know if you know how math works...m/s is pretty important for calculating a Radian in this game. Without knowing the m/s you would only know 1 our of the 3 required points to calculate an angle. Having m/s gives you 2 points to plot after 1 second of travel.


you link for 1) only show "There is currently no text in this page. You can search for this page title in other pages, or search the related logs."

If you use 1891 ms as velocity for calculating the angle makes no sence at all when the target have a max speed of 287.5ms (we re talking about a Caracal with no prop mod). We still dont know directions and speed is impossible to read from the graph as the numbers are several time higher than the can possibly travel.


Its therefor safe to assume that the target ship in the graph is an afterburning cruiser that is approaching (favor gun over missile)

EDIT:
Gun tracking formula use Angular Velocity (rad/sec) the only value that is listed on the graph with anything related to this would be: "Rad.:1891 m/s" when we know that a full orbit = 6.283 (2*PI) that number could be 301 full orbits each sec (unrealistic) or its transversal velocity and the "Transv.: 976 m/s" thing on the graph is some unknown mythical number.
When transversal Velocity is used to descripe movement comapred to you, and Marauders are stationary (bastion, or the ranges would be way off for that graph) there is no logical reason for a target to more 3.4 times as fast comapred to you than its base speed (976 vs 287.5)
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#39 - 2015-06-24 20:19:32 UTC
You will need a very different setup to be efficient between lvl4 and lvl5 missions. Lvl5 missions solo will mean you need to be passive tanked, or you will die as you will get neuted. I personally would not take a RS to low sec solo.. but it will work passive fit.

As for HS lvl4's.. a golem will out perform the RS. I have tried both. A properly fit golem will inst pop cruisers with one cruise missile volley, well the angel ones not always. The bastion makes it immune to ewar.
So on paper a RS look better, but once you jammed/damped to death, you would be wishing for the bastion.
The only ship, subcap of course, that works better than a golem is a Paladin, but that is very situational and only against em/therm weak NPC.

Can't remember my golem fit as I am at work, but evemail me and I will send it through.

... What next ??

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