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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

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xeddyx
Capts Deranged Cavaliers
#881 - 2015-06-12 18:01:56 UTC
Remove fleet and wing warps for those, leave squad warps alone.
Brother Mercury
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#882 - 2015-06-12 18:08:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Brother Mercury
Please do not implement this in its current form or even before fozzie sov comes onto TQ in its entirety. I don't think you've appreciated all the adverse effects that it will cause, with little to no benefits.

CCP wrote:
The goal of these changes is to encourage more individual fleet member participation and reduce the speed at which fleets can get on top of targets (e.g bombers).


This will not encourage more individual fleet member participation, but rather it will make FCing with a covert-ops alt mandatory. At BEST it makes a non-alt covert-ops fleet member mandatory. Thus, literally, your goal to encourage more fleet member participation results in the "participation" of exactly ONE added person playing the, more often than not boring, role of probing/scouting.

Fix bombers specifically, instead of implementing this change which will have drastic impacts many other gameplay areas.

CCP wrote:
Q: CCP, why you do this?
A: We want transfer more responsibility for the success of a fleet from its FC to its members.


Again, you're not transferring ANY responsibility besides making it mandatory for one fleet member to be a covert-ops scout, and you should know very well CCP that this just makes this a mandatory role for the FC, aka another alt.

Potential positive changes:

- Bombing runs take slightly longer to perform/are harder to pull off.

- Exactly ONE fleet member potentially has more ability to help fleet engagements, unless the FC just adds another alt -- which 90% of the time he will.

- Makes dictors/hics stronger -- is this good?

Negative changes:

- Time for a battle to take place INCREASED. If you can't find your target or your desired location to warp-in, it will only make engagements more boring and drawn-out, if not prevent a fight from happening outright. To go along with this point, it makes it that much more difficult to catch nano fleet comps/gangs and really engage, rather than the nano fleet poking you twice and running, resulting in a waste of an hour trying to probe them/catch them down. This is your idea of fun?

- Contrary to what you believe a result will be -- that is, to make meta shifts away from nano fleets -- it will only increase their power due to fast movement and the inability to catch them. No one will even consider (not that it happens often) using a slow speed/warp fleet.

- I don't think anyone (at CCP) has realized how drastically this will impact arrival times of ships on grid. No more fleet warping to fleet member. OK, so now when your fleet of cruisers, frigs, battleships (haha not anymore), etc. have to warp individually the landing times on-grid will be extremely varied.

- Makes gameplay/moving a fleet that much more tedious than it already is.

- Makes it mandatory to have MANY more bookmarks. Having a timer come out? Better get your entire alliance to make the same perches around the timer objective! RIP the hamsters.

- Off-grid boosters are even safer, contrary to what your intentions are.

- I'm not a WH player, but from what I've read the way it takes bookmarks to propagate, this change just makes their gameplay even more tedious, boring, and alt filled.

- Makes dictors/HICS stronger. Bad?

edit* - Creates more barriers for new players to learn and participate in fights.

Overall the changes give little to encourage the type of behavior you're seeking, while taking away good gameplay and increasing tedious and boring gameplay.

I'm quoting a part of this post as well because it is very accurate. The whole post is spot on as well.


FT Diomedes wrote:
News flash to CCP: real people who play the game are the most precious asset in this game.

Your changes, however, make the game increasingly tedious and obnoxious to play, which drives away the real people.

There is no FC on the cluster who would rather have another alt in fleet than a real person. I already delegate every possible task to my corp mates that I possibly can - the ones I keep for myself are the ones that I cannot delegate to someone who only has one account and will have no fun filling that role.

Come up with some truly rewarding roles for people in fleets. As it is, you keep multiplying the number of thankless roles that are best done on an alt - because your business strategy seems to be to squeeze as much out of the existing humans as possible.


In the past I described Eve as "white-knuckled, trembling hands, exciting." I'd literally sweat during a fight. Now the words I would use are "tedious, a chore, like a second job." The only reason I still play or stay at all engaged with Eve is because I feel I owe it to my friends to keep logging in and participating. My masochism is steadily wearing thin. Playing Eve should not be an unpleasant or boring experience, yet that is what you have been doing over the course of the past year. I accepted jump fatigue because it promised good things - it was bitter medicine that might save Eve. Now we have fatigue, entosis, and this nonsense.

You have a very narrow idea of what is fun in Eve - not everyone enjoys your pseudo-solo/small gang elitist PVP mentality. Most people just want to log in and have fun playing Eve with their friends. Make Eve easy to play - not another chore. The challenge should come from the other players, not from the interface or silly restrictions.


*edit: added potentially more negative consequences.
Xzeratuhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#883 - 2015-06-12 18:09:58 UTC
Change "Defender Missiles" to destroy Bombs?

Never see in my eve time Defender Missiles. Was that a CCP prank?
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#884 - 2015-06-12 18:18:18 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
What you need is a bandaid for a few hedge cases of large fleet encounters, and you instead order a brain surgery. Ugh

This change would be horrible. You should encourage the smashing of fleets onto each other more; half the problem of big fleet fights is the ease of disengagement because every damn thing out there worth flying doesn't brawl. Higher body count encounters where fleets can't just wisp away from each other easily is a GOOD THING, and this change more or less helps fleets be really picky about engagements. It continually amazes me how little ISK in ships is lost in fights in null compared to what is fielded; the meta does enough work to keep fleets alive, why would you exacerbate this more and take one of the few tools that lets kiting fleets be punished?

Fix bombers separately. Jesus.



The same could be said for SC/Titans, instead we got Fatty Gay
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#885 - 2015-06-12 18:22:46 UTC
Has the general trend of FC'ing really devolved so much to 1 man his alts and a handful of bored line pilots?
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#886 - 2015-06-12 18:24:02 UTC
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
Imataki Nobuno
Household Stair Manufacturing Association of Amarr
Gundam Factory Workers Union
#887 - 2015-06-12 18:28:12 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!

Would you be able to address mixed corp/alliance fleets in the OP as well, or will that be addressed next week?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#888 - 2015-06-12 18:28:42 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!

Just curious, as sometimes I see a pattern, is the right before the weekend post release an intentional thing or unfortunate consequence of how dev work goes?

Or am I just off point there
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#889 - 2015-06-12 18:28:48 UTC
Leoric Firesword wrote:
Sparrow Creature wrote:
this change will kill wormhole just saying..


not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.


you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :)



And al the different ship classess arrive in dibs and drabs and are obliterated because there was no logi or support for the logi.

Brilliant.

Or did you forget they all warp at different speeds now? You did, didn't you.....
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#890 - 2015-06-12 18:31:03 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!



You really need to address a way to allow people to coordinate warp speeds because you're crippling/killing the ONLY way we currently have to do this.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#891 - 2015-06-12 18:31:40 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Leoric Firesword wrote:
Sparrow Creature wrote:
this change will kill wormhole just saying..


not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.


you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :)



And al the different ship classess arrive in dibs and drabs and are obliterated because there was no logi or support for the logi.

Brilliant.

Or did you forget they all warp at different speeds now? You did, didn't you.....

In what world do you live in where ships die instantly upon loading grid?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Servanda
Liga Freier Terraner
Northern Coalition.
#892 - 2015-06-12 18:31:56 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Leoric Firesword wrote:
Sparrow Creature wrote:
this change will kill wormhole just saying..


not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.


you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :)



And al the different ship classess arrive in dibs and drabs and are obliterated because there was no logi or support for the logi.

Brilliant.

Or did you forget they all warp at different speeds now? You did, didn't you.....



1. Cloaked alt warps first
2. FC warps Fleet to that alt

Fixed
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#893 - 2015-06-12 18:32:10 UTC
Imataki Nobuno wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!

Would you be able to address mixed corp/alliance fleets in the OP as well, or will that be addressed next week?

If you are referring to the bookmarks thing, it's addressed in the OP update
Jeff Kione
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#894 - 2015-06-12 18:33:02 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!


Fleet participation =/= sitting in space pretending to be a bookmark. That's not very engaging.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#895 - 2015-06-12 18:34:06 UTC
Jeff Kione wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!


Fleet participation =/= sitting in space pretending to be a bookmark. That's not very engaging.

Sitting in space pretending you are bookmark = not using brainpower
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#896 - 2015-06-12 18:34:29 UTC
Jeff Kione wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!


Fleet participation =/= sitting in space pretending to be a bookmark. That's not very engaging.

It is when you are in the middle of an enemy fleet, desperately keeping traversal up to survive.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Dun'Gal
Myriad Contractors Inc.
#897 - 2015-06-12 18:35:18 UTC
Bad change overall - though I guess I should thank you for saving the subscription fee I pay for my probing alt?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#898 - 2015-06-12 18:37:22 UTC
Servanda wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Leoric Firesword wrote:
Sparrow Creature wrote:
this change will kill wormhole just saying..


not really, after you align to your next site, instead of your FC warping you he gives the command "warp now" or "warp to b" and boom, you're doing the same thing you did before.


you're welcome that I fixed wormholing for you :)



And al the different ship classess arrive in dibs and drabs and are obliterated because there was no logi or support for the logi.

Brilliant.

Or did you forget they all warp at different speeds now? You did, didn't you.....



1. Cloaked alt warps first
2. FC warps Fleet to that alt

Fixed



Well god knows that adds 'depth' to WH gameplay. It's totally not a points ******* speedbump.

Still, at lesat they are reviewing it because they're not happy. Although why the hell it was posted in that state I'll never know....it's almost as if they didn't think it through.
Jeff Kione
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#899 - 2015-06-12 18:38:27 UTC
Querns wrote:
Jeff Kione wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Mates,

The original post has been updated with a few more Q&A's answering some of your questions. We've got a lot of amazing feedback and we're going to go back to the CSM with some ideas. Expect an update next week.

Have a great weekend!


Fleet participation =/= sitting in space pretending to be a bookmark. That's not very engaging.

It is when you are in the middle of an enemy fleet, desperately keeping traversal up to survive.


Getting warp ins is not something new from this change. Having to have a ship sitting at a tactical in order to be able to move the fleet there is, however, and that's boring for the pilot tasked with that mundane job.
Headhunter JAX
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#900 - 2015-06-12 18:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Headhunter JAX
Dear CCP, u destroyed :


- Jump mechanics for capitals (range)
- recently ICONS :F
- now destroying another cool mechanics for fleets


Eve is becoming

like :

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/1/24/1390568266206/cat-jump-fail.gif

or like this :

http://www.killthehydra.com/wp-content/uploads/cat-jump-fail-gif.gif

#bringOldeveback :F