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[AEGIS] Fleet Warp Changes - Please see devblog!

First post First post First post
Author
Pure Delirium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#521 - 2015-06-12 08:09:36 UTC
RIP wh pvp, RIP Bombers, RIP Providence. Thank you CCP for another great game change.
Unsubs incoming.

p.s. When you will make an improvement to this game ill will re-subs my accounts.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#522 - 2015-06-12 08:09:56 UTC
The fun part is, this won't hurt bombers much. A slight modification to the default bombing tactic (one additional BM per grid for the FC, one additional warp for bombers) negates the nofleetwarp with a side effect of making it possible to bomb into bubbles and insta warpout.

For everything else it's just adds more annoyance and a very fun and rewarding dedicated cloaky nullified prober gameplay.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#523 - 2015-06-12 08:14:08 UTC
News flash to CCP: real people who play the game are the most precious asset in this game.

Your changes, however, make the game increasingly tedious and obnoxious to play, which drives away the real people.

There is no FC on the cluster who would rather have another alt in fleet than a real person. I already delegate every possible task to my corp mates that I possibly can - the ones I keep for myself are the ones that I cannot delegate to someone who only has one account and will have no fun filling that role.

Come up with some truly rewarding roles for people in fleets. As it is, you keep multiplying the number of thankless roles that are best done on an alt - because your business strategy seems to be to squeeze as much out of the existing humans as possible.

At the same time, you consistently nerf the ability for one player to control multiple ships doing the same task (a way of reducing the tedium of running the same stale sites, anomalies, and missions over and over again).

Small gang FC's already rely heavily on bookmarks and probers. It is already hard enough to nail down some elite PVP nano/kite fleet with off-grid boosters. Now you are making it even harder to get a decent warp-in on top of them and their OGB. You are making it harder to avoid their drag bubbles as they run away because they couldn't get any kills against your counter fleet.

You are encouraging players to rely more and more on individual bookmarks. Don't those create some issues for the hamsters? When every player in the alliance needs to have all the pings on every celestial bookmarked at all times, so they can warp themselves to the right point and avoid a drag bubble as they run from a larger gang, that's going to add up.

Additionally, in place of warping a gang to bookmarks, I'll be fleet warping them at range to a cloaked alt. It will just be more tedious. I'm perfectly happy to ask a new player to be the +1 or +2 scout. They get some experience and fun out of it (unless space is totally empty, as it all too often seems to be). Asking him to warp to his bookmark 200 off the gate, so I can warp the fleet to him is not a rewarding role for anyone. I'm not maintaining multiple accounts so I can have another alt sitting off the gate where I know I will need a ping - I maintain multiple accounts so I can get through the grind part of Eve faster and get back to leading small groups in search of content.

In the past I described Eve as "white-knuckled, trembling hands, exciting." I'd literally sweat during a fight. Now the words I would use are "tedious, a chore, like a second job." The only reason I still play or stay at all engaged with Eve is because I feel I owe it to my friends to keep logging in and participating. My masochism is steadily wearing thin. Playing Eve should not be an unpleasant or boring experience, yet that is what you have been doing over the course of the past year. I accepted jump fatigue because it promised good things - it was bitter medicine that might save Eve. Now we have fatigue, entosis, and this nonsense.

You have a very narrow idea of what is fun in Eve - not everyone enjoys your pseudo-solo/small gang elitist PVP mentality. Most people just want to log in and have fun playing Eve with their friends. Make Eve easy to play - not another chore. The challenge should come from the other players, not from the interface or silly restrictions.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#524 - 2015-06-12 08:15:23 UTC
Querns wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
And then land the capitals and ask themselves why te grid is empty.

Your capitals, maybe. Mine warp faster than cruisers.


Your point being?
If you are flying in a big enough blob so individual pilots´ contribution does not matter and are only fighting meaningless fights you are able to ignore anything. Yeah, everybody already knew that. Also almost everybody does not enjoy that playstyle, though many suffer through it.

Querns wrote:
You need to be a large wormhole group to afford interceptors?

You need to be in a large group to afford 1-3 throwaway pilots per engagement. If I have a full fleet of 200 I can get someone to sit on every possible hole for warpins and throw some into the enemy for every warp-in. If I do the same with 10 pilots I end up with 3 ships in combat.
Jezza McWaffle
Night Crawlers.
#525 - 2015-06-12 08:15:30 UTC
Might as well re-post it here, this is how I see it negatively affecting Wormholes becuase there is NO POSITIVE side for wormholes with this change, absolutely zilch.

The three biggest issues I see with this change which are a day to day thing. Most of these apply to groups who run with more than just 1 corporation.

1.
If you have multiple corps either from being in an alliance or on a joint op, when your going down the chain, especially if its a long chain currently you fleet warp or provide a warp in to the WH, fleet warping is preferred since you don''t have to worry about the character ahead getting caught and this while annoying I could get used to just continually warping to someone to get the chain I haven't bookmarked, it will just require more scouts all the time.

2.
If your warping into a hostile fleet, this is the worst part of the change in my opinion. Currently we can fleet warp either directly into the hostile fleet or at a tactical spot and then warp down to engage them, this relies on just the fleet commander having the bookmark because often if your running in an alliance or with multiple groups then not everyone is going to have the bookmark because you bookmark so much **** in wormholes (CCP please try living out of WH's for once). After the change this is going to resort in either getting a scout at the position which if its tactical is no problem but if your warping directly to the WH no scout is going to put himself 2km away from the entire hostile fleet and their bubblers. So we'll have to resort to WAITING for the bookmarks to propogate, thank you CCP for FORCING us to wait even longer now for any chance to have some decent PvP.

3. When your going to kill some site runners, when I kill site runners who are on their own I either warp to my scout alt or fleet warp using my scout out (obviously with warp with fleet turned off) to the enemy at zero either by bookmark I made or with probes. Having to warp to my scout alt means I have to get my scout alt dangerously close, and because of the changes you CCP have made to Wormholes almost everyone scans with Covops not T3's because of frigate holes and the importance to scan quickly given how easy it is to spot new holes. If your going to kill an escalation fleet (which is actually hard if the site runners put an ounce of effort into defending themselves), then a usual thing to do is for the bubblers to be switched to a squad where the commander is the scout, scout then fleet warps the bubblers to the hostile fleet either through probes or a bookmark, and given how hard it can be (and time consuming) for a scout to manually pilot close to the enemy fleet (which is very dangerous because of the all the objects in sites) and the amount of time it consumes, giving the hostiles more time to extract once they IMMEDIATELY spot the new sig appearing. You are just making site running even safer, which is not something we want!

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Kontrahage
Perkone
Caldari State
#526 - 2015-06-12 08:15:41 UTC
As one of the few role players in eve I care more about wether changes designed by CCP make sense in the lore,
which seems to be an aspect neglected most of the time.

A bookmark or probe result is information about a specific coordinate in space required for a ship navigation system
to warp to.
If one member of the fleet has this information, especially one in a leadership position there is no reason why this member
could not share this information with the others.
Especially if there is a command ship in the fleet with warfare link modules that are actually supposed to optimize the distribution
of information among the fleet.

I don't much care about the mechanical changes. The idea to involve the individual fleet members more is very good
as their participation in blobs has been more or less reduced to click stuff in the broadcast window but this approach
does not really make sense.

If you allowed fleets with established communication networks (command ships) to still warp to any location warpable by
a leader, this would be an acceptable compromise.
It would also give a more directly felt impact to the loss of such a shipt to the way the fleet has to be lead.
Loss of command ship = loss of command capability.

Whatever you decide to do, please consider wether it makes sense in the lore.
Johnny Twelvebore
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#527 - 2015-06-12 08:19:06 UTC
I see where this is coming from, you want to reduce reliance on one guy driving a whole fleet of F1 jockeys about and I can understand and support that.

It does however impact those of us who use probes to catch mission runners in lowsec as now it will take longer to get on top of him and increase his chances of getting off grid in time. There are a lot less of us though so I suppose we will have to live with it.

Bloody hell, another eve blog! http://johnnytwelvebore.wordpress.com

Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#528 - 2015-06-12 08:23:19 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
+1 this is a excellent change that will help to open up combat/fleet tactics. I supported and pushed hard for this.


Opens up jack squat, just makes things more painful, so thanks for nothing Manfred.

F1 monkeys will always stay F1 monkeys as long as their is no intrinsic motivation to improve. If you / CCP actually believe forcing people to warp on their own will lead to a better gaming experience for anyone - short term or long term - you're extremely naïve.
Kim Khardula
Archetype Industries
#529 - 2015-06-12 08:24:26 UTC
Jaqen Ahai wrote:
You could even have a 'real' person doing the probing and scouting.

You mean you have to interact with other people in the MMO ? Erk.
Eva Peacemaker
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#530 - 2015-06-12 08:31:40 UTC
I'm gonna be constructive and tell you that this change sucks. Thanks
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#531 - 2015-06-12 08:32:35 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Budrick3 wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
+1 this is a excellent change that will help to open up combat/fleet tactics. I supported and pushed hard for this.


Good luck getting re-elected.



I am not a politician. I am not here to kiss anyones ass. If I run and I don't get re-elected so be it. I support measures , mchanics , changes that will make eve more exciting more dynamic more balanced and more deadly. Destruction is the lifeblood of Eve. Nearly every profession and activity in Eve is fueled by things exploding. More explosions means people in space doing things playing the game. More interaction which is the foundation of a MMORPG.


I'LL GIVE YOU DEATH AND YOU WILL LOVE ME FOR IT.


Bullshit, how does it make EvE more dangerous and deadly? Why would there be more killmails? If anything, this makes it harder for one group of ships to get on top of another (group of) ship(s). In fact, this is stated as a desired effect of these changes. Now, why would there be more explosions? More strugglers will be caught and picked off, but that's about it.
Cayden Til
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2015-06-12 08:36:04 UTC
Dumbest idea ever from CCP without having the Corp BMs appear instantly to every player.
This is so lol, do they even play their game? Kills the whole WH gameplay.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#533 - 2015-06-12 08:38:04 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:


Bombers were retardedly op and combat probing was very op


Hey there is a fix for bombers. Reduce bomb damage by ~80% and make them apply equally across all ship classes / signatures ... you know, like smartbombs do.

You're welcome :)
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#534 - 2015-06-12 08:39:17 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Pyralissa wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
I am not a politician. I am not here to kiss anyones ass. If I run and I don't get re-elected so be it. I support measures , mchanics , changes that will make eve more exciting more dynamic more balanced and more deadly. Destruction is the lifeblood of Eve. Nearly every profession and activity in Eve is fueled by things exploding. More explosions means people in space doing things playing the game. More interaction which is the foundation of a MMORPG.


I'LL GIVE YOU DEATH AND YOU WILL LOVE ME FOR IT.


You are not a politician, but you sure talk like one. You're asked to explain why you think this change is good for the game and you offer a bunch of nonsense platitudes by way of response.

How does this lead to "more explosions"? It makes Slippery Petes, the most cowardly block-level doctrine in the game, almost impossible to engage. It reduces the power of bombers, literally the most 'explosive' ship in the game. It makes combat probing more difficult, meaning that kiting shoot-and-run tactics (Garmur and Orthrus pilots will love this change) even more powerful because they can obliterate tackle, roll safes and be assured that they'll never have to worry about being outnumbered when the counter-attack comes. And of course it makes life more tedious, boring and unnecessarily difficult for wormholers, explorers and mission runners.

Who it will benefit, especially once alliance bookmarks are deployed, is tightly nit organizations composed of single alliances that frequently engage coalition fleets composed of multiple alliances, who will still have to come up with annoying work arounds. You've championed a change that benefits cowards, hinders literally every facet of the benefit of the game all for the benefit of making bombing slightly more difficult. Well done, you really should consider running for office.



FWIW I am pushing to see unprobeable™ ships destroyed as a thing forever. I have suggested to CCP that they limit 1 eccm per ship hull. But however allow people to fit as many remote eccm's as they want. That way you could still achieve really high sensor strength. However you would first have to land , lock , activate the module. During this time those ships are all very probeable.


Another quality proposal.
Dongjun1225 Yan
Fuxi Legion
Fraternity.
#535 - 2015-06-12 08:40:58 UTC
I am a rookie ,the eve is so hard to play,
I am a Java Developer,I wanna know what do you think to make the game so hard, It is not funny.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#536 - 2015-06-12 08:42:35 UTC
Kathy Iron wrote:
Shilalasar wrote:
Joran Jackson wrote:
I think this is a fantastic change for wormholes. Anything that makes it harder for 50 man WH fleets to function gets a thumbs up from me.


You do realize this does nothing to those fleets but hurts the smaller ones way more? Starting with the fact that the almost all big groups are in one corp only and will have access to corpbookmarks from the initial scout.

What this change does is it kills NPSI fleets., esp in wormholespace. Have fun giving everyone in fleet the bookmarks beforehand. Multiple people from the same corp in fleet might help not a bit since they need to have corproles for bookmarks.
This is especially true in wormholespace where you need a ****-ton of bookmarks just of the holes.
Flying through a big system or even thera? "FC, call me in 5 minutes when you land so we can warp too"
Forgot to copy one of the bookmarks? well, sucks to be you.
Someone went the wrong way? You are stranded alone until someone comes back to get you. OFC that will polarize this person and force it to do nothing for 5 minutes and be left behind.
Corpbookmarks haven´t updated yet? Well, see you in 5 minutes.
You found someone in a sig you do not have a bookmark for? Combatprobe him down and hope he is still in there not just by the time you warp there, but everybody warps to you too. You better scanned in a tanky T3 and not came through one of these great only-the-smallest-of-ships wormholes. Also huge boost to WCS, everybody love those.

As enough people have stated it also really hurts group PvE that isn´t anomrunning. Bestcase it double the traveltime (superfun with the most popular PvE ships being BS sized), worstcase "have fun tanking the site alone for 30 sec until our RR gets here too".

For PvP this is a huge boost to kiting. You get a cloakyprober next to a kitingfleet, by the time your buddies land near you the kiters have made at least another 10km and are out of webrange. You use a noncloaky to keep up with them, free killmail thanks to the addition of RLMLs.

Things will never warp at the same speed, tackle lands and gets faceraped, logi lands and looks stupid, mainfleet lands and is in exactly the same position as pre-warp. And then land the capitals and ask themselves why te grid is empty. Unless you are flying ishtars, T3s or mordus´ ships, because all of those are so little used anyways compared to BCs and BS who get shafted again. Oh, and you better hope everybody has all lvl5 navigationskills, if you FC some new players you will be out of warp long before they are.

It takes away the homefield advantage of FCs with 20+ tacticals around every gate in the homeregion. Good and bad at the same time but again a huge boost to kiting.


Again, this change only supports blobbing and excessive use of multiboxing, like so many other changes we have seen lately.


CCP Larrikin wrote:
Both of these points are solid. Corbexx brought these up while we where talking to the CSM about the change.
Regarding slowing down the speed of sites, given the potential profitability of wormhole space, we don't consider this a major negative.
Regarding movement fleets though WH space, we have something we're working on for this. That said some of the feedback we've received is mixed. Reducing power projection though WH space (for both WH residence & passes though) not seen as all bad.


And again, lowend residents get the shaft because C5/6s. "Potential profitability" with nanoribbons creeping around 2M a piece...
Warping to fleetmembers 0 on a hole needs them to be decloaked, let´s also anounce it in local, just in case they do not have a scout out. Sneaking up on someone in a site only works if it is not littered with asteroids, LCOs, huge gasclouds or just sleepers spawning and burning around.
This change effects 5 man escalationfarmers NOT AT ALL, it is even a boost for their security.

I'm glad I read through this whole thread because this is my exact feeling. Put into words exactly what I was thinking.


Just put a guy on a WH for a warp in, is that really hard to do???

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#537 - 2015-06-12 08:43:25 UTC
This is a very bad change for wormhole space. I will try to eplain:

Let's say we just found a new wormhole in our homesystem (we either rolled, or we got a random connection w/e). We send out scouts and soon scouts are splitting up as the connections and chains expand.

This image is a fairly common scenario, let's say a scout from corp A is scanning subchain-1 and a scout from corp B is scanning subchain-2. So, all members of corp A have bookmarks for subchain-1 and all corp members from corp B have them for subchain-2 (assuming both scouts use corp bookmarks ofc).

Now, the scout from corp B jumps in to the next wormhole, hit's his dscan and see's npc wrecks and some ships. Our fleet, from members of both corp A and corp B forms up in the home system while the scouts pinpoints their location. Speed is important here, any wrong move, or take to long and they might get scared and move away before we can get there.

The scout finds them and the fleet begins to move. Corp B members have bookmarks, but corp A members to not (remember it was a corp B scout that did the scanning, the corp A scout is scanning a different part). So, you put a corp B member in squad/wing and warp the fleet to all the holes. Corp A makes bookmarks along the way. If we wouldn't be able to do those fleet warps, that means someone from corp B must warp to the next wormhole, land, before corp A members can warp to the next wormhole. This more then doubles the response time of our fleet. By the time we get there, our targets will most likely be long gone.

The only way I can think of to solve that, would be to distribute the bookmarks from corp B to corp A while the fleet is forming up. However, it can take anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes before all bookmarks are propagated for all corp members. By that time, the targets will be long gone as well.

Unless we either get alliance bookmarks, or bookmark propagating becomes instant, this change is ver, very bad for wormholespace.

I hope that made sense...
Xzeratuhl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#538 - 2015-06-12 08:44:21 UTC
Honnestly CCP?!


this change will really suck! only big alys / corps will have enought "scout chars" to have warpins.

-1
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#539 - 2015-06-12 08:46:29 UTC
So I woke up and apparently didnt dream this trainwreck.

"get a scout on grid"

Brilliant, and how are they going to keep up with a manuevering fleet when cloaked? Or do you think they'll last 5 seconds on grid, alone.


Also, different warp speeds of ships makes this an absolutely stupid idea, unless you ALWAYS AND FOREVER warp to an alt.


Net effect:

Bomber inconvenience (the closest I can find to a "justification" for this)

Complete pain in the arse for rest of eve. Slows everything down and/or needs sacrificial lambs to be added to a fleet.



Seriously, for once can you just fix what was broken instead of burning down the whole house to solve a spider in the bathtub? Just once.


And the notion this helps small gang is preposterous - by their very nature they are short on warm bodies and alts are used to make up for this shortfall.

I'm stunned, genuinely stunned at this move. So much collateral damage for a problem with so very many more ways to fix.


I'd have a hell of a lot more time for it if it was presented "here is the problem, here is why a,b,c,d,e...x,y,z wouldn't work to resolve this so we are stuck with this fix for now. We're sorry about the impact to other elements but there is no other way". As it is, it's just....I don't even have words for how backwards this is.

This is the kind of reaction to a post I've exclusively reserved for bad PLAYER ideas before.

/dismayed.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#540 - 2015-06-12 08:47:53 UTC
Xzeratuhl wrote:
Honnestly CCP?!


this change will really suck! only big alys / corps will have enought "scout chars" to have warpins.

-1


That is not true, 99% of small groups will do just fine with the scouts. And that 1% will adapt pretty quickly because the entry level for that role is very small.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.