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Do not train to fly battleships

Author
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2015-06-08 15:34:10 UTC
Ignoring the last 10 pages.

If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.

The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.

If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#202 - 2015-06-08 23:13:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
Battleships are the victims of cumulative module nerfs:

ECM.
Nos.
Webs.

These utility modules meant that the pure slot-advantage of a BS allowed them to be useful and effective where frigates/cruisers could not. I'm not saying these modules shouldn't have been nerfed, just that the consequences are now apparent.

Now they have weapons that can only hit other BS or heavily tackled smaller targets, they are too hard to move long distances and logistics for re-arming a fleet with lost BS are insanely impractical.

Long story short battleships don't have anything they do well enough to justify them being used over HAC's or attack battlecruisers.

13kr1d1 wrote:
Ignoring the last 10 pages.

If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.

The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.

If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.


I applaud your pointing out the stupidity of some of the statements in the thread but the fact remains that other than drone boats, HAC's and T3's make up 90% of eve fleet combat. It's not an argument; If BS where better, they'd be used more... they aren't, so they don't get used in PVP.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#203 - 2015-06-08 23:49:17 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:


I applaud your pointing out the stupidity of some of the statements in the thread but the fact remains that other than drone boats, HAC's and T3's make up 90% of eve fleet combat. It's not an argument; If BS where better, they'd be used more... they aren't, so they don't get used in PVP.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png
(from this dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla?_ga=1.32444796.391044756.1431445780)

Only Cruiser (assume this means t1) and HAC do more overall dmg in PvP than battleship, T3 Cruisers are slightly behind and frigates behind there again is longer behind battleship than battleship is behind HAC.


Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...

Miss Moist
I is a Ferret
#204 - 2015-06-09 01:40:45 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66946/1/STEVE_7.png
(from this dev blog http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla?_ga=1.32444796.391044756.1431445780)

Only Cruiser (assume this means t1) and HAC do more overall dmg in PvP than battleship, T3 Cruisers are slightly behind and frigates behind there again is longer behind battleship than battleship is behind HAC.


Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...



Got to wonder how much of the BS damage is made up entirely of the Dominix and POCO bashing.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#205 - 2015-06-09 05:37:24 UTC
SHADOWWALKER shadows wrote:
You clearly have not been in a marauder, train for a kronos with t2 fit and you will be amazed at its effectivness(talking in terms of pve) over 1000 dps for my kronos on another toon of mine. I live in wormholes and use the kronos to solo c4 sites which is making me easily 200mil an hour (does depend on the number of combat sites are in the hole at that given time. Some other examples of battleships being used in pvp though, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parsL-K9l6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYHdM0sqLDk and an example of how my kronos fitted(similar but not exact) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waACuI-T3X8

Nope not talking about a marauder. T1 battleships for the cost and skill points are only good for station bashing and PVE content. PVPing in one is a liability. Sure, they are fun to fly, but not as effective as other options for the cost and Skill points. Since you like them, and have not experienced all of them, let me show you how the empire's battleships measure up against each other in PVP:

Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2015-06-09 05:42:59 UTC
13kr1d1 wrote:
Ignoring the last 10 pages.

If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.

The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.

If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.

Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too.
BeeHaw Bocadotsu
Doomheim
#207 - 2015-06-09 06:37:30 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:


I have more knowledge about the subject .


https://beta.eve-kill.net/character/90226855/


Doubtful


LOLOL, Dis killboard gave me back my 6 pack abs, LOLOLOLOL
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2015-06-09 11:14:28 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:

Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...



Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash.

If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#209 - 2015-06-09 11:17:51 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Ignoring the last 10 pages.

If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.

The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.

If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.

Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too.



Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go.

Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#210 - 2015-06-09 11:34:14 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:

Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...



Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash.

If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck


Cruisers are clearly the most used ships, but saying battleships are terrible when its just Cruisers + HAC that do mor eoverall PvP damage is just wrong.

T3 Cruisers do less than Battleships, Dreads do less (10x paper dps), Supercarrier do less (10-20x paper dps).


Could Battleships use some buffs here and there, sure, but they are largely used in PvP and do 3rd most pvp dmg of any class of ships in the game.
If battleships are not worth training but battlecruisers and large weapons (Battlecruisers+Stealth Bombers) are worth it and capital ships are worth it (need BS skill to fly...). What makes Battleships so bad?
Eridon Hermetz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2015-06-09 11:47:39 UTC
IMO , the only one classes of BS worth to train are the black ops , no need to roam gate to gate , possibility to cloack easily , reduced jump fatigue etc etc etc

Marauders are worth to train to , for high end pve in Wh for exemple (or high end pvp like big maker do with nanovargur xD)
T1 battleship need a complete rework to be worth to train/invest to it (pvp or pve)

my 2 cents
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#212 - 2015-06-09 14:51:41 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
SHADOWWALKER shadows wrote:
You clearly have not been in a marauder, train for a kronos with t2 fit and you will be amazed at its effectivness(talking in terms of pve) over 1000 dps for my kronos on another toon of mine. I live in wormholes and use the kronos to solo c4 sites which is making me easily 200mil an hour (does depend on the number of combat sites are in the hole at that given time. Some other examples of battleships being used in pvp though, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parsL-K9l6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYHdM0sqLDk and an example of how my kronos fitted(similar but not exact) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waACuI-T3X8

Nope not talking about a marauder. T1 battleships for the cost and skill points are only good for station bashing and PVE content. PVPing in one is a liability. Sure, they are fun to fly, but not as effective as other options for the cost and Skill points. Since you like them, and have not experienced all of them, let me show you how the empire's battleships measure up against each other in PVP:

Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar



How exactly is it a liability to pvp in one? My typhoon begs to differ, both t1 and FI. Also you have insurance, after insurance a t1 BS costs roughly 60-80m depending on fit. Show me a cruiser that can shoot 800-1k dps out to 60km, that has 100k+ EHP, 24km neut(s) and can fit an MJD to escape from things faster than you. All the while costing 60-80m. You won't find one.

Just the past couple days ive killed t3d, AF, and faction cruisers in my phoon. While doing this ive been chased by blobs, fought linked ships, got around gate camps and avoided many attempts at being probed down (70 SS FI phoon.. heh gl prober). So, ive avoided all the usual compliants about BS and came out on top.

Im sry your PVE phoon keeps dying because you dont know how to be aware of your surroundings, but that is not the BS' fault, but the pilot flying it.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#213 - 2015-06-09 15:00:21 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
So, the real question is:
What can be done to fix this horrendous issue?

A game that provides 22+ years of skilling, should not top out at cruiser hulls.


Double their EHP. For starters.

Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2015-06-09 16:38:59 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Double their EHP. For starters.

Otherwise in the rock/paper/scissors environment of EVE it will always be necessary to bring friends to fight things outside of your role. In the meantime a couple of destroyers shouldn't be pasting a mid-range battleship in 30 or 40 seconds.
If you go that route, you'd have to increase repair/boost amount, otherwise the Hyperion and Maelstrom might fall behind horribly

That said, I've had some success with battleships in PvP with mixed fleets with battleships as support. No, you probably can't catch a cruiser gang with your battleship gang, but the cruiser wing of your gang can catch them and then you drop the hammer with your Armageddon, Megathron or Tempest. They're good when speed isn't an issue, and when you have stasis webs and sometimes target painters to make sure your guns can hit.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2015-06-09 19:06:49 UTC
Haatakan Reppola wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Haatakan Reppola wrote:

Battleship is the class of ships that does 3rd most PvP dmg, they cant be all that bad at it...



Considering the DPS a typical BS should put out, that's really pretty bad. Doubly so when one considers how many structures they are wheeled out to bash.

If a BS has 2x the DPS of a cruiser and they are tied on the charts that suggests cruisers are used 2x more. For them to be 3rd....yuck


Cruisers are clearly the most used ships, but saying battleships are terrible when its just Cruisers + HAC that do mor eoverall PvP damage is just wrong.

T3 Cruisers do less than Battleships, Dreads do less (10x paper dps), Supercarrier do less (10-20x paper dps).


Could Battleships use some buffs here and there, sure, but they are largely used in PvP and do 3rd most pvp dmg of any class of ships in the game.
If battleships are not worth training but battlecruisers and large weapons (Battlecruisers+Stealth Bombers) are worth it and capital ships are worth it (need BS skill to fly...). What makes Battleships so bad?

Read the OP.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#216 - 2015-06-09 19:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
But it's wrong....

Just because they're not represented doesn't mean they can't be. A disgusting amount of PvP DPS is spent grinding structures, which means Ishtars and VNI....it's a huge skew, domis contribute but are less agile so tend not to be as much.

You see a good number of battleship videos where they're smashing entire gangs and that's ONE battleship. The usually don't have more because everyone would just run away.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2015-06-09 20:19:27 UTC
afkalt wrote:

Just because they're not represented doesn't mean they can't be. A disgusting amount of PvP DPS is spent grinding structures, which means Ishtars and VNI....it's a huge skew, domis contribute but are less agile so tend not to be as much.



Indeed this is true. Being less agile in EVE means being a punching bag. Again VNI has an advantage that although a battleship can do more damage, makes it less preferred. In other words the risks aren't really worth it.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2015-06-09 20:26:54 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:
Ignoring the last 10 pages.

If you think a battleship is a glass cannon, you've done the whole "battleship" thing wrong. Put some damn tank on it next time. The large size of guns are just a bonus to the point of battleship hulls themselves. Develop a theory of use, trial and error, make adjustments, and then profit.

The volley of battleship guns is the main draw. Trying to pump a few hundred more DPS wastes the tanking and ewar potential of all the mids and lows. It is essentially a point that the battleship guns are there to nuke something off the field, such as cruisers who get double webbed by your tacklers.

If you have issues with your battleship being slow and being a glass cannon, then perhaps you need to redesign your modules and rigs.

Greatest tank in the game is sig/speed tank. Worst weapon system is a large weapon system. It will rarely hit it's target for all the damage those weapons can do on paper. Battleship electronic systems are pretty bad too.



Are you a Fuzzy alt? It's all clear now. You like high speed kiting ships. Nothing else matters to you. So, since you can't make a high speed kiting BS you can't fly them, you don't understand them and you're 2 narrow minded to listen to 30 guys and 10+ pages of stuff. You're that special kind of forum guy that holds onto his (wrong - see previous many pages) notions and just won't let go.

Please - you're right - BS are totally the suxors and should be removed from the game. Your stupid has tanked our factual reason. You win! Please - go away.

Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#219 - 2015-06-09 21:05:01 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Read the OP. 10 pages of gang theory, and t2 battlships, high sec POS bashing, and some snark. No one has said a way battleships are designed superior to other ships for the ISK and SP invested in them. They are fun to fly, good at PVE, and are your best option for high sec POS bashing.


The isk argument goes out the door when you start flying t2/t3 cruisers, after insurance they cost 2-3 or more times as much as T1 battleships.
For SP invested i once again ask you to show us a Cruiser (t2/t3) fitting with X number of SP so the people defending battleships can counter you argument (that you felt the need to make this post for)

Give us a baseline for ISK/SP/Fitting (dps/tank/whatever).
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#220 - 2015-06-09 21:19:18 UTC
You read the OP. Then check out that dudes KB history. It makes me wonder why we would even discuss the issue with him. He has zero experience flying BS, so he really doesn't have a basis for anything he says. Not old enough to fly a BS and zero pvp experience.

If you know the guy, do him and the rest of us a favor.... pull him to the side and quietly tell him that ranting on some theory that he doesn't even have actual experience with is kind of.... not good. It's no wonder we can't reason with him. He doesn't even have a reasonable base of understanding to build on.

Shame on us all for this. (I especially blame Baltec1 - of all people he should know better)