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Do not train to fly battleships

Author
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#181 - 2015-05-25 15:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break.


It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament.
I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship".


1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships.
2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.

Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck".

My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web.



Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.


First of all you are excluding all of PvE, including the fact that most PvP is paid for by PvE. Second of all, to win PvP is a good reason. You have been thoroughly schooled in your own thread repeatedly by multiple people.

I dont need to own a car. I could walk the 8 miles to work everyday if i wanted, and carry groceries from the store one meal at a time on my back. You dont need to own an air conditioner in the summer in Phoenix Arizona, you can just drink a couple of gallons of water a day.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#182 - 2015-05-25 17:30:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.


I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone.


Arguably, they should of lost 1 ship (the first one pointed) and cut their losses at that point. The most funny stuff I find in that video is how long people bash their head on the brick wall of his tank somehow never realizing they are fighting a losing battle.
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2015-05-25 18:58:09 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.


I just showed you a golem ripping apart entire fleets alone.


Arguably, they should of lost 1 ship (the first one pointed) and cut their losses at that point. The most funny stuff I find in that video is how long people bash their head on the brick wall of his tank somehow never realizing they are fighting a losing battle.


They are all waiting for his Ancillary Shield Booster to reload, not even thinking that he could be using a normal booster + cap booster !

He was also very good at taking some armor dmg to make people think he almost died (even if not planned that way)

When you see a heavy shield tank start taking armor dmg you dont leave and cut your losses you throw all you have at it to get that kill
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2015-05-26 01:12:09 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
A fleet of frigates vs a fleet of battleships isn't a question, its a ridiculous, unpractical hypothetical. As I've already stated, a BS can be part of a well balanced fleet. A bowl of cereal is not a nutritious breakfast. Its part of a well balanced breakfast. And it would be a stalemate at very best no matter how the BS's were fit, because Drones. What do you think, the cluster of battleships is going to all be within 15k of the center of the mass? so that no frig is within range of any battleship? and no BS has drones? or a web? Give me a break.


It happens all the time. at gatecamps null, high sec wars and hell even the alliance tournament.
I see the problem here. You all fly Gallente battleships that fit neuts, web, and high damaging drones. I understand. As I said earlier, "the Domi is a really good ship".


1. Show me the tournament match of a fleet of frigates beating a fleet of battleships.
2. Show me a gatecamp involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.
3. Show me a HiSec war involving a FLEET of battleships vs a FLEET of frigs.

Oh wait, those examples all involve a bunch of frigs ganging up on a BS with no utility? Yeah, a fleet of vets will beat a smaller fleet of noobs pretty much every single time. You changed your argument from "battleships suck" to "battleships not fit for PvP in a fleet not fit for PvP suck".

My Armageddon fits drones, neuts, and a web.



Its not about fleets and fits though. Its about necessity. There is no good reason to fly battleships.


First of all you are excluding all of PvE, including the fact that most PvP is paid for by PvE. Second of all, to win PvP is a good reason. You have been thoroughly schooled in your own thread repeatedly by multiple people.

I dont need to own a car. I could walk the 8 miles to work everyday if i wanted, and carry groceries from the store one meal at a time on my back. You dont need to own an air conditioner in the summer in Phoenix Arizona, you can just drink a couple of gallons of water a day.


That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships.
And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law.
link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#185 - 2015-05-26 04:05:18 UTC
Quote:
...

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships.
And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law.
link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514


Its actually an excellent analogy. It would take 2 hours to walk to work at 4 mph or 15 minutes driving the speed limit. Doing a level 4 mission in a Vargur vs a Hurricane would produce a very similar ratio of completion times.

A situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game has already been presented, bashing a POS in a C1 - C4 wormhole, or hisec. level 4 missions are another. Running sites in a c3 wormhole is another. Rattng in many low and null systems is another. Incursions are another. There are numerous killmails where a lone battleship is the victor.

And dont try to change the argument to t1 battleship, as everything above a t1 battleship requires training BS in the first place.

Your answer to my air conditioning analogy is yet another strawman fallacy. You do not have to rent your dwelling in AZ. It is neither a legal nor actual requirement to live there.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#186 - 2015-05-26 04:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Aza Eban wrote:

That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. A battlecruiser compared to a battleship is not like walking v. driving. Its more like taking a H2 Hummer v. your fuel efficient sedan to the grocery store. The Armageddon was mentioned earlier, and did not always have drone bonus. Noobs will lose to veterans regardless because, they are noobs. Burden of proof is on you to find a situation where a battleship is better than any other ship in the game. The rationale is based on sig/speed of ship v. SP req and usablity. The truth is: there is no benefit to flying a T1 battleship over another ship. Smaller ships, and cap ships do the job better than battleships.
And if your landlord doesn't provide AC in the summer, his slumlord ass is breaking the law.
link to AZ/AC:http://www.azlawhelp.org/viewquestions.cfm?mc=3&sc=24&qid=23514


Any t1 or t2 cruiser vs rapid heavy raven. The raven will moonwalk its way to victory without breaking a sweat.

But hey, lets see another video. This time its the turn of the urmergurddon
Cetaphil Thrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2015-05-26 17:37:30 UTC
Hell yes awesome video!
Perihelion Olenard
#188 - 2015-05-26 18:46:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
That megathron at the end of the video should have easily had him if he were blaster fit with a heavy cap booster. I looked up that megathron fitting, and it had 425mm meta rails with regular antimatter. Not exactly fantastic if he lets the target get that close with no web or scram. It looks like he was fit to be in a fleet with logistics.
Omar Alharazaad
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#189 - 2015-05-26 23:36:45 UTC
Either way, an excellent video. A well made fake, as BS's obviously suck. Right?
The Golem vid was simply enthralling also.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#190 - 2015-05-27 03:31:55 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
That megathron at the end of the video should have easily had him if he were blaster fit with a heavy cap booster. I looked up that megathron fitting, and it had 425mm meta rails with regular antimatter. Not exactly fantastic if he lets the target get that close with no web or scram. It looks like he was fit to be in a fleet with logistics.


It was likely dragged out in desperation.
Gh0stBust3rs
Destruction and Pacification Services
#191 - 2015-05-31 05:17:49 UTC
Just because I cant help myself this id----newb in need of training joined IRC... He is doomed to fail now.


Lost another Typhoon as well https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/46920196/
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#192 - 2015-05-31 10:18:35 UTC
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:
Just because I cant help myself this id----newb in need of training joined IRC... He is doomed to fail now.


Lost another Typhoon as well https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/46920196/


Yet another pve fit
Haatakan Reppola
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#193 - 2015-05-31 10:30:29 UTC
Gh0stBust3rs wrote:
Just because I cant help myself this id----newb in need of training joined IRC... He is doomed to fail now.


Lost another Typhoon as well https://beta.eve-kill.net/kill/46920196/


Battleships are so bad it was a T2 Battleship and a frigate using battleship weapons that killed him :P
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#194 - 2015-05-31 13:42:09 UTC
the real travesty is the T1 fit and NO rigs :(

No Worries

Cetaphil Thrace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2015-05-31 19:23:03 UTC
That fit was terrible, and he wasn't killed by a frig, it was a team including a bs
Walter Pryst
Pryst Services Corp
#196 - 2015-06-01 00:42:15 UTC
So the main point of contention seems to be not IF a battleship is useful, but rather what are the reasons you'd want it over something else. I haven't seen a real list of those reasons yet, but I think a lot of it would come down to the following:

* alpha. This is a big one, in large fleet fights reps don't work if ships are vollied off. You can fit cruisers and BCs to withstand like a BS, but it limits your selection a lot
* up sizing. When I only have 3 people online, getting the extra slots, tanks and dps out of each ship matters. The rest of this thread backs up the viability of BS is roles like this
* damage. Much like alpha, getting true BS dps out of much other than T3 BCs with large guns is hard. This limits a lot, where as most BS can do serious damage without gimping

You can call me Walt

Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2015-06-04 20:52:54 UTC
Walter Pryst wrote:
So the main point of contention seems to be not IF a battleship is useful, but rather what are the reasons you'd want it over something else. I haven't seen a real list of those reasons yet, but I think a lot of it would come down to the following:

* alpha. This is a big one, in large fleet fights reps don't work if ships are vollied off. You can fit cruisers and BCs to withstand like a BS, but it limits your selection a lot
* up sizing. When I only have 3 people online, getting the extra slots, tanks and dps out of each ship matters. The rest of this thread backs up the viability of BS is roles like this
* damage. Much like alpha, getting true BS dps out of much other than T3 BCs with large guns is hard. This limits a lot, where as most BS can do serious damage without gimping

Well thought.
Devasha Detrasha
Doomheim
#198 - 2015-06-08 09:08:16 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
big miker wrote:
big miker wrote:


They just need some support to shine via either webbing ships, links or anything else that let's them apply damage more easily.


Yeah, I was being sarcastic, in the first clip of the first video you used 3 of the 5 recommendations I stated yesterday that OP dismissed because he knows more than me.

You need to re read the thread. While I appreciate big miker's input, hitting smaller is only a small part of my discussion. Again, any ship can fit/drone/etc... to take on another ship. Just why would you use a battleship to do it ?


Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse).

If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills.

When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.


So heavy neuts will drain any frig/cruiser cap dry or?
SHADOWWALKER shadows
The Red Island Foundation
#199 - 2015-06-08 11:07:06 UTC
You clearly have not been in a marauder, train for a kronos with t2 fit and you will be amazed at its effectivness(talking in terms of pve) over 1000 dps for my kronos on another toon of mine. I live in wormholes and use the kronos to solo c4 sites which is making me easily 200mil an hour (does depend on the number of combat sites are in the hole at that given time. Some other examples of battleships being used in pvp though, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parsL-K9l6Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYHdM0sqLDk and an example of how my kronos fitted(similar but not exact) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waACuI-T3X8
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#200 - 2015-06-08 14:19:44 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Devasha Detrasha wrote:


Because unlike cruisers (excluding t3 as theyre their own monster) a BS has a far better tank/buffer than almost any cruiser. Also cruisers cannot fit heavy neuts (except a gimped curse).

If setup properly, a BS will obliterate frigs/cruisers. But, you have to use webs/neuts and sometimes TP to accomplish that. I killed a ranis last night in about 2 shots in my phoon. Then killed an atron trying to be funny by flying by really fast, but thx to heavy neut.. he ran out of cap 12km from me and popped. Not these are not hard or elite pvp kills by any means. But thats about as small you can get and still had successful kills.

When things get crazy and i have 5-10 people on field trying to kill me, thats when that BS tank starts to shine.


So heavy neuts will drain any frig/cruiser cap dry or?


Heavy neuts will insta-cap a frig and normally 2 cycle a cruiser. The catch with heavies is long cycle time. A frig with a nos will be able to keep cap managable under heavy neut. A cap boosted cruiser or frig will also be able to manage. However, if they have a cap dependent active tank they will start to run into trouble.

Its best used at neuting tackle right as they come in to 20-24km as they will have mwd shut down and will drift into you. Very easy to kill at that point.