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[Carnyx] The Jackdaw

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Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#61 - 2015-05-10 19:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Maurice Shepard wrote:
Onslaughtor wrote:
... honestly this is very disappointing. With only two lows there is no room for the fun and creative fits that made the other two so much fun, not counting the silliness that was the 10mn version(But we fixed those and we still can have fun fits like LSE svipuls with web and scram). I don't need 6 mids. Personally I would leave most the stats and just swap a mid to a low. 3-5-6 thats well balanced and keeps it in a different space than the other ships it has to compete against in its own missile using category.

If I were to make more changes I would have strived for a different bonus for the missiles, like a 7.5% for rockets and a 5% for lights. But that can be fixed on the weapons themselves. The Propulsion bonus also feels very lackluster to the point where I really don’t see myself using it for much else than insta warping from gate to gate.


I completely agree with this.

Also all the people above in this thread that are whining about the PG should probably stop comparing this thing to the pre-nerf extremely OP 10MN AB dual ASB I'm-gonna-moonwalk-out-of-here Svipul and think about why this thing has so little pg.

For PG compare to the Corax. For light missile builds, it has 2 less launchers so at top skills that's around 19 more pg to work with than the Corax.

Sounds great unil you realize that a corax with 7 launchers and a mwd doesn't even have 1 pg left over to play around with. It will need to fit a micro power core on the bottom in any case if you want to fit med extender and prop with the lights, and if you're like most out here who want to fit double extenders or even go with a LSE, that'll be nearly impossible due to anemic fitting space. What will likely be seen will be light missile Jackdaws with lots of damps or tracking disruptors. They'll be great for long range fire support in fleets with all that extra ewar, i do admit.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#62 - 2015-05-10 19:44:36 UTC
Altrue wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Quote:
Powergrid is very tight for most fittings, but CPU is much more generous.


am I going to end up using best named (that means compact btw, your tiericide didn't work) launchers? sure am glad I trained LM spec 5 :(


You most certainly are going to if the PWG stays that way. I don't really get the whole effort on making the PWG so tight, there is really no need to sanction 10mn AB fits given that their speed will be laughable at best.

they're going the same odd route with the corax with gimping light missile fits. I have no idea why this is the case since the Talwar, even post-patch, would have much less difficulty fitting arty on it than the jackdaw would have fitting light missile launchers.
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static
Wardec Mechanics
#63 - 2015-05-10 19:46:37 UTC
Bob Shaftoes wrote:
Yeah this ship is going to be pretty worthless for kiting.

If I am doing the math right it will do 1136 with navigation and acceleration control 5 , outside of speed mode

1409m/s outside propulsion mode
160 * 1.25 * (1 + 6.25 * 1500000/1550000)
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#64 - 2015-05-10 19:48:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Saerin Korvalu wrote:
The main problem I'm seeing with the ship is the gimped PWG. It's ridiculously low.

Less PWG than a Corax. -_-

I find this infuriating. They shouldn't be locking it to one weapon system; it needs to have usability with light missiles without fitting a crapload of pg mods to even be passable with just a med extender and mwd.

Hell, even the speed is wrong. If they're going to make it a strict brawler, it needs to be able to catch up and grab things; the flycatcher is wonderful for that. The hawk gets away with it since it has oodles of tank (and it's still faster than the jackdaw, I believe). Being slow is ONLY ok if you have good viability with light missiles.

Give defensive mode a rep bonus instead of the bloody useless sig radius bonus; it only works on the Confessor since it's an armor boat. Bump up speed and powergrid significantly; you already have the 10mn problem fixed by the low mass so you don't need to worry as much about oversized fitting.

I will repeat; you NEED to have light missile be the base for what it can fit normally. If you can't fit med extender, mwd, and all the other mids, lows and rigs without any assistance you're doing the build wrong. Please don't give us another Corax.

Dude. Flycatcher has 63 pwg and has to fit 7 launchers. This has 56 and only needs to fit 5. It has a built in extender. Calm down.


Fair point, now that I've been able to compare it. Still very cautious about it, as the last really good thing that happened to caldari balance was the rail buff, and they had recently nerfed even though they didn't need to. Either way, it does hold great promise as an ewar platform; all those mids mean lots and lots of damps and TDs.

Also, I would like to see a rep bonus on it if the Hecate is getting one for armor.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#65 - 2015-05-10 19:49:56 UTC
Zavand Crendraven wrote:
Bob Shaftoes wrote:
Yeah this ship is going to be pretty worthless for kiting.

If I am doing the math right it will do 1136 with navigation and acceleration control 5 , outside of speed mode

1409m/s outside propulsion mode
160 * 1.25 * (1 + 6.25 * 1500000/1550000)

speed def needs a buff. All of the d3s should be at minimum over 2km/s with mwd, even if this ends up being the slowest one at base stats.
Zavand Crendraven
Rolling Static
Wardec Mechanics
#66 - 2015-05-10 19:53:57 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Zavand Crendraven wrote:
Bob Shaftoes wrote:
Yeah this ship is going to be pretty worthless for kiting.

If I am doing the math right it will do 1136 with navigation and acceleration control 5 , outside of speed mode

1409m/s outside propulsion mode
160 * 1.25 * (1 + 6.25 * 1500000/1550000)

speed def needs a buff. All of the d3s should be at minimum over 2km/s with mwd, even if this ends up being the slowest one at base stats.

Actually the others arent that much better Svipul gets 1635m/s the prop mod is gonna be a lot slower thought cuz of the bonus
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#67 - 2015-05-10 19:55:12 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Zavand Crendraven wrote:
Bob Shaftoes wrote:
Yeah this ship is going to be pretty worthless for kiting.

If I am doing the math right it will do 1136 with navigation and acceleration control 5 , outside of speed mode

1409m/s outside propulsion mode
160 * 1.25 * (1 + 6.25 * 1500000/1550000)

speed def needs a buff. All of the d3s should be at minimum over 2km/s with mwd, even if this ends up being the slowest one at base stats.

Speed needs a slight buff but i hope everyone looking at speed remembers to compare with skills and with prop mode. The guy saying this was slower than minnie bcs made that mistake
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#68 - 2015-05-10 20:24:11 UTC
Ao Kishuba wrote:
Kashuken Farith wrote:
decent rocket destroyer that's not damaged locked.


Down with Caldari kinetic lock!

Seriously, it's 2015... why is this still a thing?


Haven't you heard? Kinetic lock makes caldari ships interesting!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#69 - 2015-05-10 21:30:53 UTC
Guys.. its a missile a boat. It doesn't need to be as fast as a svipul or confessor. Have we not learned what fast ships and missiles do? Look at the garmur/orthrus, those 2 ships have been a cancer on PvP since their introduction.

It has no tracking to contend with. And it will have insane acceleration.. so if its fit with a 1mn MWD, it will still have the acceleration to slingshot most ships. Plus, a 66% bonus to missile velocity will mean even the kiters can't kite it when its fit with LML. Possible you could even get enough range for rockets to hit out to point range with a rig or 2.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#70 - 2015-05-10 22:08:28 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Guys.. its a missile a boat. It doesn't need to be as fast as a svipul or confessor. Have we not learned what fast ships and missiles do? Look at the garmur/orthrus, those 2 ships have been a cancer on PvP since their introduction.

It has no tracking to contend with. And it will have insane acceleration.. so if its fit with a 1mn MWD, it will still have the acceleration to slingshot most ships. Plus, a 66% bonus to missile velocity will mean even the kiters can't kite it when its fit with LML. Possible you could even get enough range for rockets to hit out to point range with a rig or 2.



ravens, navy ospreys and breachers use missiles and go fast, but they aren't cancerous. it's the overpoweredness of lights/rapid lights and the tackle range bonuses and enormous damage bonuses that really cause the cancer. you cannot catch a kiting ship with a fast brawler (the kiting ship's counter) when the kiting ship has a 50% longer disruptor range for very long kiting (this destroys slingshotting), a 50% longer scram range (this extremely destroys slingshotting), and weapons with such long range that it doesn't have to make any investment in range to be able to hit at 60km, even though it's a frigate and that's crazy.
if light missiles had less range and possiby alpha, and if mordu ships had no tackle range bonuses, and if their damage bonuses were split into some damage and some rof, and if links and snakes and rapid launchers didn't exist, and if the orthrus didn't effectively have 10 launchers and infinite fitting and a utility high and a dronebay, I'd really be ok with them.
Madeleine Brioche
Bank Of Villore
#71 - 2015-05-10 23:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Madeleine Brioche
Garmur and orthrus are made to be long point missile kiter, perhaps Orthrus has too much DPS, but garmur don't, specially with very fast fit.

We don't see garmur and othrus everywhere, same for worm and gila that are more powerfull. Linked and snake mordus are hard to catch if you're not, what a surprise for a kiting boat..
Lura Zara
Worlds Without Boundaries Special Forces
#72 - 2015-05-10 23:10:18 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Guys.. its a missile a boat. It doesn't need to be as fast as a svipul or confessor. Have we not learned what fast ships and missiles do? Look at the garmur/orthrus, those 2 ships have been a cancer on PvP since their introduction.

It has no tracking to contend with. And it will have insane acceleration.. so if its fit with a 1mn MWD, it will still have the acceleration to slingshot most ships. Plus, a 66% bonus to missile velocity will mean even the kiters can't kite it when its fit with LML. Possible you could even get enough range for rockets to hit out to point range with a rig or 2.



ravens, navy ospreys and breachers use missiles and go fast, but they aren't cancerous. it's the overpoweredness of lights/rapid lights and the tackle range bonuses and enormous damage bonuses that really cause the cancer. you cannot catch a kiting ship with a fast brawler (the kiting ship's counter) when the kiting ship has a 50% longer disruptor range for very long kiting (this destroys slingshotting), a 50% longer scram range (this extremely destroys slingshotting), and weapons with such long range that it doesn't have to make any investment in range to be able to hit at 60km, even though it's a frigate and that's crazy.
if light missiles had less range and possiby alpha, and if mordu ships had no tackle range bonuses, and if their damage bonuses were split into some damage and some rof, and if links and snakes and rapid launchers didn't exist, and if the orthrus didn't effectively have 10 launchers and infinite fitting and a utility high and a dronebay, I'd really be ok with them.




In otherwords, Take away everything that makes the ship what it is, and replace it with compleatly different roles and bonuses. Take away links and the point of a commandship, Take away drugs. Then ill be okay with it so I can murder it with my little blap machine.

Sorry but RLML may ruin your day, amung other things, but its the "Hard counter" to frigates and dessies that heavy missiles, HAMS and Normal light missile launchers on a cruiser could not even touch normally.

You cant win all your fights, So pick different ones.

If you cant out range them, Out speed them, If you cant out range or out speed them. Bait them. If you cant do all of those things, Jam them, If you cant jam them, damp them.

EWAR screws over any mordu ship. Be it ECM/Damps, a 3 damp hookbill can make a garmur sit and sputter with his less than rocket distance targetting. Same with an orthrus.

People are not original enough to try these things and when their cookie cutter fits fail, They ***** and moan. OP all day long.
Madeleine Brioche
Bank Of Villore
#73 - 2015-05-10 23:20:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Madeleine Brioche
double post
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#74 - 2015-05-10 23:22:55 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Dude. Flycatcher has 63 pwg and has to fit 7 launchers. This has 56 and only needs to fit 5. It has a built in extender. Calm down.


Cry again,

56 x 1.25 = 70 with Engineering V.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#75 - 2015-05-10 23:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
TrouserDeagle wrote:
it would be helpful to include speeds with various prop mods. even the obviously broken ones that you think aren't broken.



Should be ~1850m/s with MWD and all V in Speedmode without any other velocity modifiers.
~690m/s with T2 AB in Speedmode.
~1300m/s on a Meta 10mn AB in Speedmode.

Here's a Fit that should actually work as Rocket Brawler:

[Jackdaw, Jackdaw Test]

Ballistic Control System II
Internal Force Field Array I


Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Auxillary Thrusters II



~1990m/s MWD Speedmode
~274 dps preheat with Rage rockets
~52m signature while MWD off and defensive mode
Up to 300 Capbooster charges in cargo, 18 in modules, minus a few because ammo takes cargo, too.
So around 33 full cycles of an ASB if you somehow miracously manage to not die in the half hour it will take to actually burn them.

Fitting:
CPU 336,8 of 337,5 used
PG 62 of 70 used


Resistances in Defense should be somewhere around the following:

77,9 EM
83,5 TH
81,4 KIN
79,4 EXP

Which will net you around 320 dps Tank per heated ASB before imps / drugs / links


To be honest, no clue on how to abuse the 5% shield bonus, as fitting MSEs would absolutely screw your PG and you'd have to throw in some fitting mods in your scarce lowslots. And probably run multiple ACR rigs.




EDIT:

If you'd tackle a Thorax, shut down it's MWD, enter defensive mode and turn off your own MWD, then web him without getting counterwebbed, you'd have a WHOPPING 65m/s advantage over it.
Add in a Thorax Web, and the Thorax is already range controlling YOU. As in, your sig means nothing, you gon get nuked.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#76 - 2015-05-11 00:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
Max PG* you can get before Imps:
*Reasonably. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkkIwO_X4i4

70+ 2x 16,25 (Navy MAPC) * 1,15 * 1,15 * 1,1 (2x T2 ACR, 1x T1) = 149,1

--->


Following Fit, still requiring a 1% PG Imp:

[Jackdaw, Jackdaw LSE]

Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core
Navy Micro Auxiliary Power Core

Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Stasis Webifier II

Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Scourge Rage Rocket

Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


Topping out at 4922 raw Shields.

PG: 149,5 of 149,1 (Req. 1%)




Compared to a Fit with 2x MSE II instead of a single Large one, you'll be able to drop the rigs completely and drop both Navy MAPC for 1x T2 plus a Tech 2 Damage Control.

Which will give you following raw shield hitpoints:

(900 Base + 1050 MSE II + 1050 MSE II ) * 1,25 for skills * 1,25 for Ship Bonus * 1,2 for T2 Extender Rig * 1,2 * 1,2

= 8100 Raw shield.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#77 - 2015-05-11 01:04:12 UTC
Is it just me or is this ship with dual mse em amp and links like 60k ehp
Holy hell that brick, and that's without invulns so you can't even neut it.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#78 - 2015-05-11 03:55:17 UTC
Are people really complaining that you have a hard time fitting a Large Shield Extender on a destroyer hull? Roll

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Lura Zara
Worlds Without Boundaries Special Forces
#79 - 2015-05-11 04:07:49 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Are people really complaining that you have a hard time fitting a Large Shield Extender on a destroyer hull? Roll


Yes, yes they are. They also complain about not fitting a 10mn AB to a dessy.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2015-05-11 05:05:17 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Gustav Mannfred wrote:
Why is the Jackdaw slower than all cruisers and minmatar Bc's?

I think, increasing the speed to about 220 m/s would be better than 160.

I also propose a 6/5/3 slot layout, that it can fit more damage modules


160 x 1.25 = 200(m/s) with Navigation V. If you put a nano on you should be at 212m/s (guestimated).

Pweese everyone, the values in the thread are the one without any skills applied to them.


It only has 2 lows, you propose using one of them on a nano... why? This is a 2 BCU bird. If 1 BCU gets gutted for anything, it'll be a Damage Control.

Right now, it looks like a bait ship to me. Stupid massive brick tank, but lacking the PG to fit the offensive mods you need.