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Violence Against Drifter Assets Must Not Continue

Author
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#21 - 2015-05-05 01:33:26 UTC
Katiya Khadiija wrote:
Being in the position I am, I'm certainly more interested in the technology than the history. Kill 'em for all I care, just let my engineers get their hands on the debris from time to time.

For what it's worth, there's no sense calling on capsuleers to do anything - we are a wild bunch and all have our own agendas. Show me a cause worth fighting for, or a threat sufficiently frightening, and I'll show you a formidable army of united pilots. As it stands, the Drifters more or less keep to themselves and therefore aren't perceived as the threat they really are yet. Surely over time they will become more aggressive, at which point they will begin showing their true colors, thus allowing capsuleers to mobilize, united.


Or fight with them...depends on their motivation. I may fight to protect the citizens of the Empires (even Amarr even though slavery disgusts me), but that doesn't mean that I fight for the Empires themselves...
Katiya Khadiija
The Juice Factory
#22 - 2015-05-05 01:37:33 UTC
Well I never said anything about empires... they're on their way out, anyway - just look at how much pull all the capsuleer groups have nowadays.

I'm sure if CEOs ponied up some of their corporate cash we'd be able to eradicate them much faster. The problem is it's too early to say which side to dump money into...
Kerena Alabel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-05-06 03:18:55 UTC
I think the drifters understand us perfectly...I think that they just dont care. I dont know if they are here to infiltrate, invade, or just replace us...I dont suppose it matters. They have no respect for the sovereignty of any nation or corporation and their attack on Yulai was a clear terrorist act. They had multiple channels to request the body of one of their own back, hell they could have probably bought it back for less effort than it took to attack Yulai. They could have made multiple attempts to communicate, even without vocal chords. They dont communicate because they elect not to. They act the way they do to inspire fear or terror. Well I think they are messing with the wrong people. I have a couple billion isk id be willing to dump in the pot of getting these drifters wiped off the galactic map. Not much, but perhaps it might inspire others to chip in too. Better yet if someone can capture a drifter ship in one piece we can reverse engineer *their* technology, weapons and ships included and then we would be on an even technological footing, with greater numbers.
Tatius Jorgstern
Azimuth Enterprises
Sixth Empire
#24 - 2015-05-06 03:41:06 UTC
Kerena Alabel wrote:
I think the drifters understand us perfectly...I think that they just dont care. I dont know if they are here to infiltrate, invade, or just replace us...I dont suppose it matters. They have no respect for the sovereignty of any nation or corporation and their attack on Yulai was a clear terrorist act. They had multiple channels to request the body of one of their own back, hell they could have probably bought it back for less effort than it took to attack Yulai. They could have made multiple attempts to communicate, even without vocal chords. They dont communicate because they elect not to. They act the way they do to inspire fear or terror. Well I think they are messing with the wrong people. I have a couple billion isk id be willing to dump in the pot of getting these drifters wiped off the galactic map. Not much, but perhaps it might inspire others to chip in too. Better yet if someone can capture a drifter ship in one piece we can reverse engineer *their* technology, weapons and ships included and then we would be on an even technological footing, with greater numbers.


Hear, hear!
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#25 - 2015-05-06 04:06:49 UTC
At this time, and despite the great power the Tyrannos wield, I am also in opposition of engaging and destroying them unprovokedly.

We have no indications of their true goal: all we know at this time is that they are coming from somewhere deep in Anoikis, that they are performing Entosis to recover information from the Jove Observatories (just as we have found we are able to do with the Entosis Links), and that they will ruthlessly cut down anyone who stands in their way.

I personally believe the Caroline's Star superluminal event is a result of their action, and that they are in opposition to the Jove Directorate; however, I will not make an enemy of something as capable and powerful as the Tyrannos before first understanding what their end goal is.

A "Shoot first, ask questions later" policy tends to go quite badly for those who have that attitude against a superior adversary.
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#26 - 2015-05-06 04:12:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
In addition...

If the Tyrannos lay claim to any area of New Eden, looking back to their seeming inheritance of "the legacy of some of the most ancient Jove", I can only assume it will be the Heaven constellation of Curse, and surrounding areas.

At one time, the Jove were rooted in that area; if the Tyrannos inherit an ancient Jove legacy, I am confident that an area near Heaven will be their future home in New Eden, if anywhere.
Feu dAstres
Nox Draconum Holding Corp
Nox Draconum
#27 - 2015-05-06 10:27:49 UTC
And yet, we fail to identify their current home ... as we cannot reach Jovian space to investigate.

What are they lacking, there, that they have returned (?) to what we call "known space"?
Kerena Alabel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2015-05-06 14:24:43 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
At this time, and despite the great power the Tyrannos wield, I am also in opposition of engaging and destroying them unprovokedly.

We have no indications of their true goal: all we know at this time is that they are coming from somewhere deep in Anoikis, that they are performing Entosis to recover information from the Jove Observatories (just as we have found we are able to do with the Entosis Links), and that they will ruthlessly cut down anyone who stands in their way.

I personally believe the Caroline's Star superluminal event is a result of their action, and that they are in opposition to the Jove Directorate; however, I will not make an enemy of something as capable and powerful as the Tyrannos before first understanding what their end goal is.

A "Shoot first, ask questions later" policy tends to go quite badly for those who have that attitude against a superior adversary.



Whatever their goal is, its not good for us. That much is clear. That alone should be enough to oppose them. Capsuleers have taken down their ships before, they arent invincible and they dont have our numbers. I say strike while we have the numerical advantage. During our attacks we will discover what they are after. Right now they are focusing on salvaging jove tech, each day gaining more and more. I say stop them before we cant.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2015-05-06 15:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Kerena Alabel wrote:
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
At this time, and despite the great power the Tyrannos wield, I am also in opposition of engaging and destroying them unprovokedly.

We have no indications of their true goal: all we know at this time is that they are coming from somewhere deep in Anoikis, that they are performing Entosis to recover information from the Jove Observatories (just as we have found we are able to do with the Entosis Links), and that they will ruthlessly cut down anyone who stands in their way.

I personally believe the Caroline's Star superluminal event is a result of their action, and that they are in opposition to the Jove Directorate; however, I will not make an enemy of something as capable and powerful as the Tyrannos before first understanding what their end goal is.

A "Shoot first, ask questions later" policy tends to go quite badly for those who have that attitude against a superior adversary.



Whatever their goal is, its not good for us. That much is clear. That alone should be enough to oppose them. Capsuleers have taken down their ships before, they arent invincible and they dont have our numbers. I say strike while we have the numerical advantage. During our attacks we will discover what they are after. Right now they are focusing on salvaging jove tech, each day gaining more and more. I say stop them before we cant.


Respectfully to ... all concerned, it looks like either view has merit. It's possible that the Drifters find us either impossible or pointless to communicate with directly. It's unlikely that their intentions are wholly peaceful, but they need not be hostile to us all.

I guess it's natural, in many societies, to attack someone who invades your home. It's ... still risky, though, and it's maybe a better idea to avoid a fight against a deadly, unknown enemy if we can.

What tips my opinion, reluctantly, into the "war" camp (I guess) is that there's no way we're going to stop attacking them unless it becomes extremely obvious that it's a bad idea.

That doesn't mean that we all ought to rush out with our biggest guns. A lot of us are probably best off lying low. ... but the fighting will continue, so we should probably make whatever plans we're going to make like we're expecting more fighting.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2015-05-06 15:55:44 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
In addition...

If the Tyrannos lay claim to any area of New Eden, looking back to their seeming inheritance of "the legacy of some of the most ancient Jove", I can only assume it will be the Heaven constellation of Curse, and surrounding areas.

At one time, the Jove were rooted in that area; if the Tyrannos inherit an ancient Jove legacy, I am confident that an area near Heaven will be their future home in New Eden, if anywhere.



To date I've see zero Drifter presence in Curse.

The Jovian connection to Heaven is so old, it's almost legend. If there is any legacy left behind, it's that this is where the Jove got sick? Maybe the Drifters/Jove wouldn't be so quick to return?

But maybe this explains their ramped up presence in Amarr? If they were looking to settle old scores...

Again, more conjecture, little facts.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#31 - 2015-05-06 17:19:57 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:
I humbly request all aggression towards Drifter assets cease. All efforts from this point forward should be attempts to communicate.


Violence is a form of communication.

What do you think Drifters message is when they open fire at certain triggers?
Evi Polevhia
Chiranjivi
#32 - 2015-05-06 17:46:14 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
What do you think Drifters message is when they open fire at certain triggers?


"Don't interfere in our operations."

A message that empires and capsuleers say every day with the same language.
Deceiver's Echo
Imperial Rite Mission Rens
#33 - 2015-05-06 18:02:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Deceiver's Echo
Merdaneth wrote:
Violence is a form of communication.

They communicate in ways other than violence as well.

Scanning for instance. Their scanners operate on principles seemingly similar to the Entosis Links. We know that this technology transfers consciousness into databases. They could be attempting communication, and not finding sentient response due to scanning the wrong databases.

If they are indeed "awakened sleepers", as part of a digital society they perhaps require external storage to exist.

It is possible that the vessels are not simply modes of transport, but part of who and what they are. Much like our link with our vessels, but much more intimate and integral.

Therefore, communication may be impossible without direct scanning of our corpses, and even then, they may not understand what they are scanning. It may be possible to communicate via other methods that are beyond our reach. Requesting access from individuals and political entities with such methods would be the best course of action.

Attempts could be made to access resources and personnel capable of such communications from the Amarr Empire, CONCORD, and Sansha's Nation. As an individual I do not believe I have the political clout to request such assets, but as a group, Capsuleers may be able to persuade these entities to share their assets.

EDIT:

Speculation: Perhaps the disruption of communication that occurred during the recent release of findings regarding the Drifter corpse was an attempt to communicate, one that was too much for the communications systems to compensate for. It could have been an attempt at rescue as well.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#34 - 2015-05-06 18:20:14 UTC
Deceiver's Echo wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Violence is a form of communication.

They communicate in ways other than violence as well.


I don't understand. Are you advocating that we should stop scanning them as well, because they scan us too?

Are you also advocating that they should continue to use violence to find vessels for communication (corpses)?

Are you advocating that we should kill off our own to that they might be able to communicate?

Do you believe their current form doesn't allow them to understand simple binary coded messages?

It is simple, if they trespass and break laws in Amarr sovereign space, they should be treated as pirates and dealt with accordingly. Why should they receive some exempt status?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#35 - 2015-05-06 18:33:58 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
It is simple, if they trespass and break laws in Amarr sovereign space, they should be treated as pirates and dealt with accordingly. Why should they receive some exempt status?

Respectfully, sir, is it really that simple?

... they might decide they weren't speaking loudly enough. And you've got a lot of doomsday devices over a lot of densely inhabited worlds.

I'm not quite saying they should (or, pragmatically, can) be left in peace, but ... respectfully, maybe don't tempt fate by treating something terrifying as though it were ordinary?
Deceiver's Echo
Imperial Rite Mission Rens
#36 - 2015-05-06 18:36:30 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Deceiver's Echo wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Violence is a form of communication.

They communicate in ways other than violence as well.


I don't understand. Are you advocating that we should stop scanning them as well, because they scan us too?

Are you also advocating that they should continue to use violence to find vessels for communication (corpses)?

Are you advocating that we should kill off our own to that they might be able to communicate?

Do you believe their current form doesn't allow them to understand simple binary coded messages?

It is simple, if they trespass and break laws in Amarr sovereign space, they should be treated as pirates and dealt with accordingly. Why should they receive some exempt status?

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. Communication may not be perceived. Just as we look for such communication and do not understand theirs, the inverse is also possible.

5. We are Capsuleers. We can choose to act as we please. Has the Amarr Empire stated to Loyalists that they must interdict Drifter assets? If not, then is it not optional?

Communication is possible. I am not saying that it is achievable. Every effort should, however, be made. My suggestion is to first attempt to gain access to the means of communication. If that is not possible, we should attempt to develop a method of communication.
The Golden Serpent
A Drunken Squirrels' Conspiracy for Revenge
#37 - 2015-05-07 11:43:51 UTC
No orders have been given regarding the drifter presence! We are maintaining our attention on the tribal threat. I think that the Drifters are looking for God and religion. They see that it has worked for us and they want to protect it and be a part of it and learn to walk with the sacred fire. God has given them the ability to see and they have come to Amarr to learn from our ways. By the sacred laws of hospitality given to us by God these advanced and intelligent people who have come to us should be treated as any guest and given lodging, safe passage and food. Clearly God has favored them with such power, either to bring aid to the faithful or they are a test of our faith, God forbid that we fail.If they destroyed the Jove that is God's will. If they begin attacking us without provocationt then the Empress will guide us to victory.

Amarr Victor!

-:¦:-•:'":•.-:¦:-•* K H A N I D •-:¦:-•:''''*:•-:¦:-

Frenjo Borkstar
Doomheim
#38 - 2015-05-08 09:02:43 UTC
The fact is, Echo may be right. We've already tried peaceful communication before engaging, and where did it get us?
Nowhere.

They refused to listen, and heck they don't even have vocal chords so they might not even be able to talk, or understand what it is.

I'm on the borderline at the moment, but will see if I can get the attacks stopped.

Viriel,

Borkstar Laboratories,

The Borkstar Initiative.

Evi Polevhia
Chiranjivi
#39 - 2015-05-08 09:16:28 UTC
Frenjo Borkstar wrote:
...but will see if I can get the attacks stopped.


Unless they start talking, which I doubt, I believe it will be impossible at this point to achieve peace. And with the Antikythera Elements being harvested now? There's no way to turn back the clock. Capsuleers have found a new resource to harvest. And like all good locusts, they will swarm and consume and give no heed to what they feast on. All they know is to acquire.
Deceiver's Echo
Imperial Rite Mission Rens
#40 - 2015-05-08 18:36:52 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Unless they start talking, which I doubt, I believe it will be impossible at this point to achieve peace. And with the Antikythera Elements being harvested now? There's no way to turn back the clock. Capsuleers have found a new resource to harvest. And like all good locusts, they will swarm and consume and give no heed to what they feast on. All they know is to acquire.

Perhaps that is part of the plan of the Drifters.

Think about the processes they use, their behavior. Add to this the semantics used in their identification. "Vigilant". To watch over a long period of time.

If I were the Drifters, and I knew of Capsuleers, I would allow their natural instincts take over. Use these "high value targets" as bait to learn as much as I can about Capsuleers. Set up a simple test target, such as the Circadian Seekers. Escalate the observation by adding defensive response. Further escalate the test by bringing in test assets to observe continued aggression and escalation of opposition.

It is not just potential war we are avoiding by non-violence, but denying the enemy further data points should violence become a necessity.

It is perhaps too late, but communication is still possible. Recent intel shows potential for invasion force, or mass migration. If the term Drifter is any indication, these assets are migratory and as such could conceivably maintain extended aggression over a wide target area. The question; are they migrating to us, or somewhere else? I suggest the latter; if such an invasion were to occur, it would put a strain on the resources of a migratory society. It is more likely that the Drifters are attempting to gain access to a new region, one which we may be on the verge of discovering. Wormholes previously undiscovered have appeared, Sansha's Nation has wormhole generation technology. It is only a matter of time before this technology progresses. If we are seen as a competitor, one with greater resources, they will not attempt direct conflict. They will attempt to avoid us, while also preparing for an eventual confrontation.

If we can avoid violence, if we can form an alliance, we would be greater than we are individually. We would be able to expand without need for competition. Capsuleers, in our current fractured state, are most likely seen as unsuitable allies. If, however, we present some sort of unified front devoted to peace, we may potentially gain an ally that can give us freedom from the Empires.

Think about this for a moment. Expanding into new regions, with powerful allies and new tools.

Can we put our short term wants aside for long term benefit? At this time, perhaps not, but it is a noble goal, non?
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