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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

First post First post First post
Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#281 - 2015-04-17 09:11:29 UTC
Simon Alfrir wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Simon Alfrir wrote:
Thanks for the answers Rowells. Your miners currently make about 4-5 more than me and do have more risk. Transportation is also a greater risk. I'm trying to understand why it is needed and I just don't see it. The system seems to be working.

Forgive me if I don't believe that number, My low end estimate includes the low end ores, so I'm a bit skeptical on how two of the same ores mined in different areas of space are worth less in one and not another.

and as for the shipment aspect I'll have to disagree again. The only risk is of being ganked, and their are plenty of deterant options available if the pilot is so inclined to choose. A little bit anecdotal here, but the only times I've ever lost a hauler were in low and nul (excluding that one time I learned the rules about entering hostile faction space in highsec). both losses were above 500mil too (freighter+lowsec=badidea). The only real difference I would argue is you cant use JF jump drive between systems.


Currently I can make about 10 Mill. an hour in a barge mining ore. You stated you make between 40-60 Mill. an hour. So you make 4-6 times more than I do. I also am acknowledging that transportation is riskier for you in Null. My income is now going to slip. I will be making less and your numbers will rise you will be making more. BTW, our haulers also are increasingly at risk of being ganked. It's not a zero-risk process.

Can you honestly tell me your miners/industry are currently so hobbled that these changes are necessary?

I would like some details on that setup before i try to hazard any guesses why the income is so low. I'm not even matching any numbers like that on any of my tools. Closest I could get is omber, which is currently the worst ore to mine for value.

The problem these changes address wasn't just the isk/hr comparison. It was the large disparity of the minerals in high end ores. If you were to mine everything you could get your hands on you would end up with a massive overstock of high end mins, which surely doesn't encourage the kind of sov space use that is being expected.

currently you have little choice, but to mine the best you can get and ship to empire so you can use the isk to buy what you need. I don't have the stats on all builds, however meg and zyd take up an extremely small portion of the bill. This is one of the things explained in the OP, the price changes on final products will be almost negligible, whereas if you have serious amounts of it in surplus, you are going to earn quite a bit more for it. While at the same time, some extra minerals are being removed with some higher volume of others added, to make the ores themselves line up more closely with actual manufacturing demands. Meaning it will be easier than before to use your own space to your advantage.

In case you weren't aware, the low end ores typically take up the vast majority of the cost in any assembly line. anywhere from 90% of the cost and 95% of the volume depending on what you build (im currently looking at the spread on a super which has higher ratios than mentioned).
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#282 - 2015-04-17 10:24:09 UTC
Simon Alfrir wrote:

I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?

There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Simon Alfrir
Doomheim
#283 - 2015-04-17 10:29:26 UTC
I'm in a retriever solo mining. 2 strip miner IIs, 2 mining crystal IIs, 5 mining drone IIs when I can get them out. My guess is you are getting rorqual boosts and maybe in an exhumer. I am getting my exhumer going in a few more weeks but the rorq is of course not allowed in Highsec. I could try to find a free Orca boost but there goes the idea of solo mining.

Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.
Captain Semper
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#284 - 2015-04-17 10:39:58 UTC
When will we see mining redesign?! Mining drone redesign (srsly, their speed...)?
Tell us CCP! Please...
Simon Alfrir
Doomheim
#285 - 2015-04-17 10:40:24 UTC
Querns wrote:
Simon Alfrir wrote:

I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?

There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?


That is for CCP to determine, not you. I am not the only one who has questioned the trades therefore it deserves being looked into.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#286 - 2015-04-17 11:27:57 UTC
my sheets show
veldspar at 40m per hour
scordite at 50m per hour

where as
spodumain is also at 50m per hour,
mercoxit is 50m per hour,
dark ochre 50m per hour.

before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.

this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#287 - 2015-04-17 11:57:18 UTC
Simon Alfrir wrote:
Querns wrote:
Simon Alfrir wrote:

I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?

There's nothing to investigate. These changes were announced first at Fanfest. You are aware that anyone can watch the Fanfest stream, without going to Iceland, right?


That is for CCP to determine, not you. I am not the only one who has questioned the trades therefore it deserves being looked into.

It's up to CCP to determine whether or not they announced the changes at Fanfest?

I mean, shit, I'll admit to buying the hell out of highends after the Fanfest announcement. It was a smart buy and one was an idiot for not getting in on a painfully obvious thing.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#288 - 2015-04-17 12:34:10 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
outside of blue donut

How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other.

Which is it?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#289 - 2015-04-17 12:40:24 UTC
Querns wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
outside of blue donut

How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other.

Which is it?


Perhaps it's the bit cut out of the middle and set aside so that hisec can fit in the hole

Maybe that bit is where the Drifters came from
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#290 - 2015-04-17 12:55:27 UTC
Simon Alfrir wrote:

Again, are you hurting that badly in Nullsec where this change is necessary? I don't mind a little pain if it helps balance things out but I don't think it's needed given all the things you guys already get that we can't use due to CCPs heavy hand. These changes seem far too large and are from my standpoint unnecessary. I don't expect it to add any additional players to Null given the lack of recruitment posts on the board for miners. I've been checking and it's fairly silent unless you want to go with a small outfit and have a big target on your back. Or should we pay up and become renters? That's not my play style at all.

CCP's goal is to reduce the reliance of nullsec on the almighty Jump Freighter, and its reliance on Jita. To do so, more self-sufficiency is required.

Nullsec groups tend not to recruit miners because miners don't actively contribute to the defense of an empire. Furthermore, mining is not a particularly difficult thing to train; PvPers will typically train PvE alts or train PvE skills as a secondary objective on their main. Right now, it's also not necessary — a single pilot with 10 JF characters can do the work of hundreds of miners by JFing in compressed ore. Additionally, dedicated industrialists tend to be the worst drama llamas known to eve online (second only to FCs.)

Regarding "all the things you guys already get," you vastly underestimate the amount of work and will needed to keep an area of nullsec. You need military power to take and hold space. You need logistical power to deploy and maintain sov structures, and to fuel towers. You need a steady income stream to pay sov bills. (One particular upgrade costs 600m a month to keep online!) You need diplomatic power to maintain good standings with your neighbors and to put out brush fires between members. For all that, you get moderately nicer mining and ratting.

If your playstyle is solo, more power to you, but you are playing a game in which cooperation is vastly rewarded. CCP will always reward cooperation over solo play due to its demonstrable effect on retention.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#291 - 2015-04-17 12:57:35 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Querns wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
outside of blue donut

How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other.

Which is it?


Perhaps it's the bit cut out of the middle and set aside so that hisec can fit in the hole

Maybe that bit is where the Drifters came from

So, Drifters are the filling of a blue jelly donut?

(i'm hungry)

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

sackofwine
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#292 - 2015-04-17 13:27:28 UTC
Bah this reminds me of when ccp killed drone poo. All that is going to happen is prices go up, and null seccers mine the snot out of the anomalies-- and then prices will crash. Long term we will be lucky if megacyte stays in the 1300-1500 range and zydrine in the 700-900 range. Whoop-ti-do.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Singularity Expedition Services
Singularity Syndicate
#293 - 2015-04-17 13:32:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Querns wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Querns wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
outside of blue donut

How do you get "outside" a blue donut? A donut implies that all of nullsec is blue to each other. Saying that areas are "outside" of it fundamentally implies that not all of nullsec is blue to each other.

Which is it?


Perhaps it's the bit cut out of the middle and set aside so that hisec can fit in the hole

Maybe that bit is where the Drifters came from

So, Drifters are the filling of a blue jelly donut?

(i'm hungry)


I was thinking more along the lines of strwberry jam once they're pulverized :D

General interest for folks here...say hello to the future:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uV1SbEuzFU
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2015-04-17 14:19:41 UTC
Simon Alfrir wrote:
I saw the spikes 8 hours after the announcement on Twitch. It appears the purchases were made before the show. They are still visible, more so with Meg.

It's possible speculation from Fanfest but it appears they did not purchase Morphite and only bought large quantities of Megacyte and Zydrine. There is probably little that can be done but it looks very suspicious and below board to me. This seemed as good a place as any to raise my suspicions about it. I think it also demonstrates how drastic these changes are to the game.Let's let them sit on those assets for a few more months and slow down these changes.


We were investing last year, I have called multiple hits for goonkind in the past few months. How would you explain this behavior without LEAKS OMGOMG.

Oh right, because smart people predict what CCP is going to do either way.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#295 - 2015-04-17 15:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Simon Alfrir wrote:

I would also ask CCP to investigate the possible insider trading of Zydrine and Megacyte prior to the announcement of these changes being made public. I believe that the there may have been large spikes in the purchases of both minerals before CCP Fozzie went onto Twitch with the initial announcement. Has this been looked into?


Oh, HAHAHAHA! Big smile

So you missed my March 20 thread in Science & Trade - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=413489&find=unread ?

And then you missed another March 20th thread in Market Discussion - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=413509&find=unread ?

Sad

I am indeed very sorry for placing large volume spikes on your charts. Big smile
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#296 - 2015-04-17 15:51:48 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
my sheets show
veldspar at 40m per hour
scordite at 50m per hour

where as
spodumain is also at 50m per hour,
mercoxit is 50m per hour,
dark ochre 50m per hour.

before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.

this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.



I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre.

On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere.

Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. Twisted A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2015-04-17 16:20:35 UTC
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
my sheets show
veldspar at 40m per hour
scordite at 50m per hour

where as
spodumain is also at 50m per hour,
mercoxit is 50m per hour,
dark ochre 50m per hour.

before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.

this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.



I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre.

On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere.

Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. Twisted A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not.


1: Are your figures "paper figures" or yield in practice?. Because due to the huge nature of the rocks in nullsec, actual yield is far higher due to barely losing any ore to partial cycles.

From a few minutes of EFT, I get 3100 (rounded down from 3139) m3 per minute on a Hulk with one MLU and rorqual boosts, using t2 Veldspar crystals.

That's 186,000 m3 per hour of Veldspar if everything was perfect. Using mineral values pulled off of the Cerlestes table for today (And before you ask, yes accounting for the new not perfect refining efficiency), Veldspar is worth 203 isk per m3 in minerals.

Ehh.... 186,000 * 203 = 37.75 million per hour in Trit. Given that Trit prices in nullsec tend to run 10%ish higher, his 40 million per hour is basically correct, if you do not account for human error in losing ore to over-cycling. Which happen far less when the rocks you mine make highsec ones look like pebbles.

Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#298 - 2015-04-17 16:23:20 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sienna Vanjarc wrote:
I understand and really like the intention of making sov-null more self-sufficient, and increasing income for nullsec miners (to fix risk/reward). That change is needed. But i have the fear this change will reduce income of highsec-miners, possibly even making it not worthwile. This is not needed by any means, as their income is very low already. So you might want to rework the highsec-ores too.

Besides, i want to suggest, that the ore-specialized mining-anomalys (not ice-belts and the ihub-sites), were scannable grav-sites again. This would especially be usefull for mining in lowsec and npc-null, where you don't have unlimited resources like sov 0.0 but the same kind of risk.

Folks mined the hell out of highsec back when trit was under 3 isk a unit. They'll be fine.


I think there are two possible outcomes from these mining changes:

1) The nullsec community generally views miners in New Eden as some kind of Dalit sub-class and would rather not board a mining vessel. The existing ones who do still mine in null-sec will operate as they do now exporting high ends to high sec and enjoy increased profits from the higher prices. High sec will continue as it does now. This is the more likely outcome.

2) The null-sec community will take advantage of the changes and industry will flourish in null-sec. Prices of low end minerals on the market will collapse falling to values present a few years ago. A fair percentage of miners in high sec have either left New Eden or switched profession, to mission running for example, after the ruling on certain usage of ISBoxer type software. A potential 40% drop in revenue from mining high-sec rocks will result in even more miners moving to other professions and the mining career option becoming a peasants trade. This is the less likely outcome.

PS. Please note I fully support CCPs decision on ISBoxer type software use and would have liked to see ALL usage of these types of software made illegal under the EULA.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#299 - 2015-04-17 16:23:22 UTC
Except that there will be no more veldspar in ore prospecting sites. :V

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#300 - 2015-04-17 16:29:30 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Bethan Le Troix wrote:
Ncc 1709 wrote:
my sheets show
veldspar at 40m per hour
scordite at 50m per hour

where as
spodumain is also at 50m per hour,
mercoxit is 50m per hour,
dark ochre 50m per hour.

before the announcement, abc's were averaging 40m per hour.

this figures are baised on an exhumers 5 hulk with bonuses, no drones or implants.



I don't have any experience of revenue from null-sec mining so I can't comment on your workings for Spodumain, Mercoxit, & Dark Ochre.

On the other hand if you actually want to sell your mined materials , even in compressed format which is optimal, you will not get 40 million ISK p/h from mining even Dense Veldspar let alone the standard Veldspar variant. Using an absolute maxed skilled Orca/Hulk combo but without a Michi fitted you are talking 25 million ISK p/h mining Veldspar and Scordite will bring in less than this. Throwing ****** statistics out like those I have quoted from your post above will not get you anywhere.

Regarding insider trading I'm reminded of the famous quote from the main character in 'House of Cards'. Twisted A lot of stirring GSF forum posts regarding Megacyte & Zydrine price increases came before CCP Fozzies Fanfest announcement that, in all but name, GSF had convinced him to do the announced ore changes in null-sec. I'll leave it up to you to decide if this is the case or not.


1: Are your figures "paper figures" or yield in practice?. Because due to the huge nature of the rocks in nullsec, actual yield is far higher due to barely losing any ore to partial cycles.

From a few minutes of EFT, I get 3100 (rounded down from 3139) m3 per minute on a Hulk with one MLU and rorqual boosts, using t2 Veldspar crystals.

That's 186,000 m3 per hour of Veldspar if everything was perfect. Using mineral values pulled off of the Cerlestes table for today (And before you ask, yes accounting for the new not perfect refining efficiency), Veldspar is worth 203 isk per m3 in minerals.

Ehh.... 186,000 * 203 = 37.75 million per hour in Trit. Given that Trit prices in nullsec tend to run 10%ish higher, his 40 million per hour is basically correct, if you do not account for human error in losing ore to over-cycling. Which happen far less when the rocks you mine make highsec ones look like pebbles.



Ah. I was coming from a different angle and presumed he was talking about mining Veldspar & Scordite in high sec systems using a max skilled/linked Orca/Hulk combo minus the Michi implant. I didn't mention or mean using a Rorqual in null sec. I thought he was comparing mining revenue between high sec and null sec to try and make out more ISK is made in high sec.

And yes my figures come from yield in practice on other accounts. I don't mine in this dress. Blink