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[April] Ore, Mineral and Nullsec Mining Anomaly Revamp

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Author
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
Just let it happen
#41 - 2015-04-15 00:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
CCP Fozzie wrote:
It also makes it much easier for players to decide what ore to mine if they find themselves in need of a specific mineral.

No, it does not. You mine ALL the ore in the anomaly so you can get another anomaly.

Please understand that. It has been distorting the mineral supply in the game for years. Null miners DO NOT get to choose what ore they mine, they are spoon fed what to mine by game mechanics.

Suggestion: Prospecting arrays are scriptable. The script tends to cause some types of ore to show up more often that others. Don't make it perfect, but something that allows the players to nudge the ores toward what they need.

Edit: Or given this:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The relative compositions of each anomaly are slightly different, allowing each corporation or alliance to decide which best matches their personal industrial activities.
Allow the site size to be easily selectable.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#42 - 2015-04-15 00:14:53 UTC
I have removed an off-topic post. Please contribute the discussion if you decide to post.

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Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#43 - 2015-04-15 00:18:17 UTC
Still needs more mexallon
W Sherman Elric
Argentum Holdings
Strategic Executions
#44 - 2015-04-15 00:22:34 UTC
My quick read came up with "meh" honestly was expecting something a bit more radical, such as single mineral ores.

Ok like other folks have said

if you want mining to increase then move the anoms back to being scanned down (including ice)

it made for an interesting game, reds had to work to get kills and miners had to be even more alert.

Pre open anoms

red comes in scans down and book marks the sites , miners scatter. Hours later (hopefully when no one remembers the reds name) the red returns warps to book mark.

much better that jump in open probe scanner select anom warp to anom gank miner leave.

Kellaen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2015-04-15 00:32:04 UTC
Thumbs up.

Now while you're at it, get rid of the barge ice / mercoxit rigs and you'll get two thumbs up.
Aya Nova
Bearded BattleBears
#46 - 2015-04-15 00:45:49 UTC
All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.

Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).

The suggestion brought by others to make ore sites (in null only) require scanning is a great one.

Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.

Another idea would be to gate the ore production through availability not time to harvest, much like exploration sites. Make it an intense, high ISK/hr activity where it makes sense for combat and mining players to work together in a group over a short span with high rewards.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#47 - 2015-04-15 00:54:28 UTC
Is this intended to have any impact on the level of low/WH mining?

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#48 - 2015-04-15 01:22:39 UTC
Aya Nova wrote:
All these changes only address one side (and the less important one of) of why null mining isn't happening.

Mining as it is, is a very uninteractive activity. You need a bunch of people sitting in a belt for hours, who can do nothing but drag ore from their bay. At the same time you need someone to clear the rats (who gets to do nothing for ~30min, then be active for 2) and if you plan to defend from PvP enemies, you need a sizable gang on standby (which is supremely boring).

The suggestion brought by others to make ore sites (in null only) require scanning is a great one.

Secondly the exhumers (or at least 1-2 of them or a new class of mining ships) need to be redesigned with the idea of nullsec defensive combat. This doesn't just mean lots of tank, because a helpless ship with lots of tank will just get ground down eventually. They need to actually be able to protect themselves, something like bonuses and slots to allow fitting of undersized weapons (or RLMLs) that would allow a pack of exhumers to not be a pushover for a smaller number of inities or a torp bomber drop. For example adding a max 3 fitted to strip miners, and adding turret/launcher highs, more mids and bonusing small weapons on the hull, but reducing warp speed to make them undesirable offensively.

Another idea would be to gate the ore production through availability not time to harvest, much like exploration sites. Make it an intense, high ISK/hr activity where it makes sense for combat and mining players to work together in a group over a short span with high rewards.


how the hell do you expect mining to be exciting.. what you want them to pvp the damn rocks? good grief go find a new home already.
Mario Putzo
#49 - 2015-04-15 01:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 12.5%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.

Don't get me wrong i like changes to sov, and i like these changes, but this is only going to nuke HS production.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2015-04-15 01:31:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.


I don't think this will be a major issue, firstly because Meg and zyd are a very small portion of build materials, and secondly, oversupply was the reason current prices are where they are at (speculation effects notwithstanding).

My only concern, and maybe slightly misinformed opinion, is that once the mineral becomes more demanded, the supply will catch up like it does currently, leaving us with a new status quo. However I am not against the idea of giving highsec some sort of limited direct acces to those two minerals.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#51 - 2015-04-15 01:33:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.

Don't get me wrong i like changes to sov, and i like these changes, but this is only going to nuke HS production.



no its get out of high sec and go to null sec.. hello mcfly!.. these changes are for null to attract people..

no one gives a stink about high sec right now.. its about how we're to build these damn new structures coming.. so HTFU and just deal with it.

I want to know when is the damn rorqual fix coming.. but they stay dodging and cloaking up the subject.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2015-04-15 01:34:19 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.


Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rhydic Ujbikist
Spacegoat Enterprises
#53 - 2015-04-15 01:48:43 UTC
I'm glad to see that mining is being acknowledged as a thing again instead of just being thrown into a corner and presumed to be working fine and that lowsec mining is being rebalanced to be economically feasible again. I wish you guys would start seriously looking into some kind of optional active gameplay for mining in addition to the current passive method, though. Mining is pretty much the only form of gameplay left in EVE that hasn't had some kind of fundamental rework or new content outside of tweaking numbers(e: exploration changes, burner missions, continual addition of new ships for different PVP roles, etc).

I'd also like to hear what happened to that Rorqual rework that was supposedly not quite going to make it into Kronos.

Rowells wrote:

However I am not against the idea of giving highsec some sort of limited direct acces to those two minerals.


I believe those would be wormholes.
Mario Putzo
#54 - 2015-04-15 02:01:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.


Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get.



Kind of an odd thing to say in a thread about changing the system so NS is able to be self sufficient.

Milla Goodpussy wrote:
no its get out of high sec and go to null sec.. hello mcfly!.. these changes are for null to attract people..
no one gives a stink about high sec right now.. its about how we're to build these damn new structures coming.. so HTFU and just deal with it.
I want to know when is the damn rorqual fix coming.. but they stay dodging and cloaking up the subject.


Id wager more people will quit silently, than choose to go to NS. I don't think you get why people play in HS. HTFU doesn't really apply here either when we are talking about the core production of the game. There is a reason that the VAST majority of production and sales occur in HS, and when if the changes goes through production in HS is going to go into decline, everything will cost more, and people will simply...stop playing.

I don't think you quite grasp the absolute dependency this game has on HS production...and you are quite naive to believe NS is going to be the savior of production, it has always been more profitable to produce in NS...yet people don't...I wonder why that could be.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2015-04-15 02:05:46 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.


Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get.



Kind of an odd thing to say in a thread about changing the system so NS is able to be self sufficient.

It's a move towards more self-sufficiency, not the ironclad guarantee of self-sufficiency. Right now, nullsec imports nearly all of its materiel. Now with this, it can import a little less.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mario Putzo
#56 - 2015-04-15 02:12:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ok serious post.

Has anyone at CCP considered just what the changes to Megacyte production cost is going to do to HS Production? There is no "mining" source of Megacyte in HS, the markets in highsec only hold a supply 25% of current demand. After changes the market supply will be effectively 25%. The only source of HS Megacyte was gun minning which CCP nerfed by nearly 45% last year. It doesn't take a degree in math to show that a 200% increase to the requirements of Megacyte are impractical and unsustainable at current levels, let alone when you compound future changes to Sov, any Fatigue Rebalancing.

HS will need a source of Megacyte, as will Lowsec. If the goal is to make self sufficiency a thing, then it should be applied to all areas of space. Otherwise.

Its game over man, game over.


Highsec doesn't really need a source of megacyte. Interregional trade is the backbone of quite a few industries. I'd sure love for all moon minerals to be available in my backyard, but, alas, it is not to be. Highsec will survive with the least-used mineral being a little harder to get.



Kind of an odd thing to say in a thread about changing the system so NS is able to be self sufficient.

It's a move towards more self-sufficiency, not the ironclad guarantee of self-sufficiency. Right now, nullsec imports nearly all of its materiel. Now with this, it can import a little less.


Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....

in other words.
"We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."

Much different than
"We import from NS, because we can't mine it ourselves."
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2015-04-15 02:16:31 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....

in other words.
"We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."

Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Mario Putzo
#58 - 2015-04-15 02:19:50 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....

in other words.
"We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."

Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.


ISK/HR all the money in the world to buy the nothing on market. Sounds like a fun game.
Siigari Kitawa
Weave
#59 - 2015-04-15 02:21:24 UTC
I thought Eve was about having connections and being able to do many things well.

If you give nullsec alliances a button to push so they can have everything they want, isn't that a bit inane? Why not make them work for it SOMEWHAT. I mean, I feel for them, I really do. In high and low, Zyd, Mega and Morph are nearly impossible to come by in usable quantities. I understand Mex is difficult for null to come by. So why give them everything and stifle everyone else?

Just seems fundamentally wrong in a SANDBOX.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX

Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2015-04-15 02:21:39 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Querns wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:

Nullsec only imports because people do not use the space they claim ownership of. Thousands of m3 of Ore go uncollected every single day simply because people don't set foot in the systems....

in other words.
"We import from HS, because we don't mine it ourselves."

Nah -- it's vastly more effort efficient to import, and contemporary mining is such bad isk/hr that no sane person would denigrate themselves by doing it. The changes should help the latter.


ISK/HR all the money in the world to buy the nothing on market. Sounds like a fun game.

That's where importing comes in. The JF pilot gets paid, the importer gets paid, and the buyer gets what he wants. Everyone wins!

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.