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Can't believe Off Grid Boosting is still around. Srsly?

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2015-03-12 16:02:22 UTC

Put OGBs in killmails. We'll be able to correlate OGB alts with their mains and make smarter decisions about probing down the OGB and killing them before engaging the main.

Let the players solve this problem instead of changing the mechanic.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2015-03-12 16:25:58 UTC
FT Cold wrote:
For all of the people who believe that boosters are 100% safe, you can check out my KB.


They're 100% safe if you aren't completely ********. Combat probes on dscan is kindof hard to miss.
Brutus Utama
State War Academy
Caldari State
#163 - 2015-03-12 16:44:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Brutus Utama
March rabbit wrote:
i have seen this in many small games: you can pay real money for next level or some stuff you can but lazy to get with ingame means.

Why not make it in Eve? Let's say i want to kill this particular pilot/ship. I just too lazy to do it. I select it in overview, press button 'pay for kill' and BOOM! Money paid, killmail is ready and pilot goes to cloning facility.

Stupid you say? Why? This is Eve: nothing needs to be fair game. You want to be 'competitive'? Just use whatever you can to get upper hand. You are paying for second account with booster to get 'solo' kills? Ok. You pay real money for special button to get the same kill? Ok too.


WORST IDEA EVER....

Anyway onto my thoughts.... using a link ship is a risk too that ship + pod probably isnt cheap and it has about as much tank as a well tanked frig.... yes they give an advantage but everyone is able to use that advantage.... but its also a disadvantage to have that ship in system if someone is able to tackle it it cant really defend it self and then thats alot of isk down the drain....

so by removing off grid boosts you also want every miner to have an orca on grid with him? because that would be ridiculous...
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#164 - 2015-03-12 16:45:45 UTC
I can guarantee if OGB wasn't in the game, and CCP tried to add it in now, eh ere would be a riot.

Imagine if CCP announced a new ship type that provided additional OGBs that stacked with existing ones. You think the Eve community would take kindly to it?

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2015-03-12 16:47:17 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
I can guarantee if OGB wasn't in the game, and CCP tried to add it in now, eh ere would be a riot.

Imagine if CCP announced a new ship type that provided additional OGBs that stacked with existing ones. You think the Eve community would take kindly to it?
No need to imagine, mate.

They will be called SuperFozzieCapitals.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#166 - 2015-03-12 17:01:49 UTC
OGB is akin to docbuffs in SWG were... they were required for participation.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2015-03-12 17:30:03 UTC
Anyone here if this thing call combat probes. I'm pretty sure there can scan down your problem OGB'ers. If they have to warp off then all the sudden they can't boost anymore.

Am I correct here?

Either way I don't care, I never run in to issues of these types. Either way Eve is fine, stop you bi**hin and adapt or die.
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#168 - 2015-03-12 18:35:43 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Aside from that, different perspectives can all be true. There is no single one truth that rules them all. My points weren't wrong in the same way yours aren't.

So no need to try again. You see it only from one side. I also understand that side, but push a different view which is equally as valid, because a broader perspective on these things is always good.

Links allow smaller gangs to take on larger gangs that they otherwise wouldn't consider. Each ship in the fleet gains equal benefit from the links, but by taking on a larger fleet, the incoming DPS is greater, not less. That's also simple math.

I understand your perspective, but in this whole discussion you haven't acknowledged even once, the possibility that links actually benefit small gangs, only that they hurt them. It's not the full picture, because it's skewed to a single view.


No. I'm sorry but imo that's realtivistic hooey based on flawed logic. Ogb is a zero sum game, If everybody has them noone benefits ( although admittedly that's kind of a simplification aswell). Small gangs only benefit if the larger gang doesn't have them. For reasons mentioned in my earlier post larger gangs will tendentially a) be more likely to have them b) have command ship links instead of inferior t3 links when in their own space c) be more likely able to intercept enemy boosting. On top of that full skirmish links make short work of the most viable tactics when facing a superior force. Thus the concept of links in general favors larger gangs over smaller gangs and is especially harmful to guerilla warfare.

The misconception that links favor small gang pvp is imo based on a spurious correllation. Small scale pvp is for numerous reasons tendentially done by more well established "leet pvpers" who are more likely to have a link alt. As soon as almost everybody has them it will become more apparant how ogb truly shapes the pvp landscape.

I'll give you an example: After my eve break i roamed the same systems i used to. The only difference is that the locals have become almost completely stationary when they have a command ship in system. On numerous occasions they didn't even chase my kiting frig out of their ogb sphere when they literally had everything (hyena, ecm) at the gate to make short work of it.
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#169 - 2015-03-12 18:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Budda Kuha
Just my two isk on the "Ogb's are fine since everybody can have them, adapt or die" argument:

Casuals and solo players are still the majority of the eve playerbase as far as i know. These players just might not have the time/money/willingnes to make a very complex game more dificult/expensive/time intensive to play. They want to log in and have some pvp action without being penalized any further (they will still have less practice. less isk and less friends) for not being a fulltime evenerd who runs multiple accounts. They want to login, roam freely and have some fun and they don't want to carry around a ridiculous booster to play the game at the same level as others. How do I know? Call it human intuition.

Who wants to carry that booster around or be bound to that station hugging claymore like a dog at his kennel anyway? People like their stat boost but the mechanic itself is bad and when the stat boost gets diminished because ogb is a zero sum game and because the victims of ogb-leetnes will either withdraw from pvp/eve in general or start running boosters themselves all that remains will be the silliness of that mechanic.
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#170 - 2015-03-12 18:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Budda Kuha
double post. nvm
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#171 - 2015-03-12 18:49:25 UTC
Budda Kuha wrote:
Just my two isk on the "Ogb's are fine since everybody can have them, adapt or die" Argument:

Casuals and solo players are still the majority of the eve playerbase as far as i know. These players just might not have the time/money/willingnes to make a very complex game more dificult/expensive/time intensive to play. They want to log in and have some pvp action without being penalized any further (they will still have less practice. less isk and less friends) for not being a fulltime evenerd who runs multiple accounts. They want to login, roam freely and have some fun and they don't want to carry around a ridiculous booster to play the game at the same level as others. How do I know? Call it human intuition.

Who wants to carry that booster around or be bound to that station hugging claymore like a dog at his kennel anyway? People like their stat boost but the mechanic itself is hideous and terrible and when the stat boost gets diminished because ogb is a zero sum game and because the victims of ogb-leetnes will either withdraw from pvp/eve in general or start running boosters themselves all that remains will be the uglyness of that mechanic.

Some people might call you delusional, i am calling a ******.
You are taking your notions and thoughts and applying it for a group of people, when you are not one.
OGB are not invincible, you can scan them with ease. So your argument holds no value, really it does not.
Kallen Kozukie
Channel Six News
#172 - 2015-03-12 18:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kallen Kozukie
Budda Kuha wrote:
Just my two isk on the "Ogb's are fine since everybody can have them, adapt or die" Argument:

Casuals and solo players are still the majority of the eve playerbase as far as i know. These players just might not have the time/money/willingnes to make a very complex game more dificult/expensive/time intensive to play. They want to log in and have some pvp action without being penalized any further (they will still have less practice. less isk and less friends) for not being a fulltime evenerd who runs multiple accounts. They want to login, roam freely and have some fun and they don't want to carry around a ridiculous booster to play the game at the same level as others. How do I know? Call it human intuition.

Who wants to carry that booster around or be bound to that station hugging claymore like a dog at his kennel anyway? People like their stat boost but the mechanic itself is hideous and terrible and when the stat boost gets diminished because ogb is a zero sum game and because the victims of ogb-leetnes will either withdraw from pvp/eve in general or start running boosters themselves all that remains will be the uglyness of that mechanic.



I dont see how anyone elses unwillingness is anyone elses problem but thier own, the option is there to use them, or even field a few choice links in a combat capable command ship. The option not to use them is there as well. Ship choice and fittings still play a major role even if both gangs have identical links.

so again, what is the issue here. because all i see here is "I cant/dont want to have a 2nd account for boosting"

Well thats fantastic, for you, however it does not mean the rest of us need to not have a booster, because you choose not to.

As stated earlier, small gangs have a hard time finding fights unless they are either outnumbered or outgunned, usually both.

Links help close that gap, and retain the ability to find a fight if hidden well.
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#173 - 2015-03-12 19:02:07 UTC
Kallen Kozukie wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Just my two isk on the "Ogb's are fine since everybody can have them, adapt or die" Argument:

Casuals and solo players are still the majority of the eve playerbase as far as i know. These players just might not have the time/money/willingnes to make a very complex game more dificult/expensive/time intensive to play. They want to log in and have some pvp action without being penalized any further (they will still have less practice. less isk and less friends) for not being a fulltime evenerd who runs multiple accounts. They want to login, roam freely and have some fun and they don't want to carry around a ridiculous booster to play the game at the same level as others. How do I know? Call it human intuition.

Who wants to carry that booster around or be bound to that station hugging claymore like a dog at his kennel anyway? People like their stat boost but the mechanic itself is hideous and terrible and when the stat boost gets diminished because ogb is a zero sum game and because the victims of ogb-leetnes will either withdraw from pvp/eve in general or start running boosters themselves all that remains will be the uglyness of that mechanic.



I dont see how anyone elses unwillingness is anyone elses problem but thier own, the option is there to use them, or even field a few choice links in a combat capable command ship. The option not to use them is there as well. Ship choice and fittings still play a major role even if both gangs have identical links.

so again, what is the issue here. because all i see here is "I cant/dont want to have a 2nd account for boosting"

Well thats fantastic, for you, however it does not mean the rest of us need to not have a booster, because you choose not to.

As stated earlier, small gangs have a hard time finding fights unless they are either outnumbered or outgunned, usually both.
Links help close that gap, and retain the ability to find a fight if hidden well.





You can see it that way but wouldn't it be actually better to get rid of a bad mechanic which does very little to enhance gameplay but hurts accessability by a whole lot? Eve is a complex game and that's what great about it but links add very little to that complexity but increase the barrier to actually play it for casuals by a whole lot. imo that's just not a good idea. You can turn this whole thing into a discourse about free will but at the end of the day 40k players are better than 25k. Wouldn't you agree?

The notion that links help small gangs is imo a total misconception as i tried to argue earlier.
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#174 - 2015-03-12 19:05:24 UTC
Budda Kuha wrote:
Kallen Kozukie wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
Just my two isk on the "Ogb's are fine since everybody can have them, adapt or die" Argument:

Casuals and solo players are still the majority of the eve playerbase as far as i know. These players just might not have the time/money/willingnes to make a very complex game more dificult/expensive/time intensive to play. They want to log in and have some pvp action without being penalized any further (they will still have less practice. less isk and less friends) for not being a fulltime evenerd who runs multiple accounts. They want to login, roam freely and have some fun and they don't want to carry around a ridiculous booster to play the game at the same level as others. How do I know? Call it human intuition.

Who wants to carry that booster around or be bound to that station hugging claymore like a dog at his kennel anyway? People like their stat boost but the mechanic itself is hideous and terrible and when the stat boost gets diminished because ogb is a zero sum game and because the victims of ogb-leetnes will either withdraw from pvp/eve in general or start running boosters themselves all that remains will be the uglyness of that mechanic.



I dont see how anyone elses unwillingness is anyone elses problem but thier own, the option is there to use them, or even field a few choice links in a combat capable command ship. The option not to use them is there as well. Ship choice and fittings still play a major role even if both gangs have identical links.

so again, what is the issue here. because all i see here is "I cant/dont want to have a 2nd account for boosting"

Well thats fantastic, for you, however it does not mean the rest of us need to not have a booster, because you choose not to.

As stated earlier, small gangs have a hard time finding fights unless they are either outnumbered or outgunned, usually both.
Links help close that gap, and retain the ability to find a fight if hidden well.





You can see it that way but wouldn't it be actually better to get rid of a bad mechanic which does very little to enhance gameplay but hurts accessability by a whole lot? Eve is a complex game and that's what great about it but links add very little to that complexity but increase the barrier to actually play it for casuals by a whole lot. imo that's just not a good idea. You can turn this whole thing into a discourse about free will but at the end of the day 40k players are better than 25k. Wouldn't you agree?

The notion that links help small gangs is imo a total misconception as i tried to argue earlier.

You are just a f'en troll and this thead should be never posted again.
Kallen Kozukie
Channel Six News
#175 - 2015-03-12 19:11:03 UTC
The change to boosting inside a pos was enough imo, it used to be the case you could sit in your cereal box fortress and boost all day, now THAT was broken, now at least the ships are out on the field, where they can be blapped.

You say that it dosn't add anything to the game, the vast majority of us disagree with you. It is completely counterable in fact if you are watchful and know how to probe.

The extra speed, range etc are essential for some types of gameplay, now just because you dont feel it fits in your vision of the sandbox, does not make it ok to demonize them for your lack of willingness to use them.

To turn your own argument against you, 25k players is indeed less than 40k, but of those 25k how many do you think are rolling around looking for solo pvp gudfights.

I promise you the answer is less than you think.

i encounter gangs all the time that do not have links, at all, some dont even know what combat probes even are. some use them religiously. But the operative word in all of it is gang, IE: more than one person. Eve is not a single player game, despite how many carebears and soloists wish it to be so, even without links, that 40 man gate camp is still going to wreck your face regardless.
Budda Kuha
Buster Blade
#176 - 2015-03-12 19:38:00 UTC
Kallen Kozukie wrote:
The change to boosting inside a pos was enough imo, it used to be the case you could sit in your cereal box fortress and boost all day, now THAT was broken, now at least the ships are out on the field, where they can be blapped.

You say that it dosn't add anything to the game, the vast majority of us disagree with you. It is completely counterable in fact if you are watchful and know how to probe.

The extra speed, range etc are essential for some types of gameplay, now just because you dont feel it fits in your vision of the sandbox, does not make it ok to demonize them for your lack of willingness to use them.

To turn your own argument against you, 25k players is indeed less than 40k, but of those 25k how many do you think are rolling around looking for solo pvp gudfights.

I promise you the answer is less than you think.

i encounter gangs all the time that do not have links, at all, some dont even know what combat probes even are. some use them religiously. But the operative word in all of it is gang, IE: more than one person. Eve is not a single player game, despite how many carebears and soloists wish it to be so, even without links, that 40 man gate camp is still going to wreck your face regardless.


They are not completely counterable. For small gangs they are not counterable at all for the most time. Think about it. Even if one of the three pilots of a hypothetical 3-ship small gang is willing to play the role of flying a bonused probing hull instead of a combat ship (oh joy!) he will be comepletely out of luck in lowsec (boosters hug stations and gates) and in nullsec the booster will just warp when he sees combat probes at 1au. or it will be well defended sitting at station or next to a pos. Furthermore having to run a dedicated prober and thus decreasing the gangs combat strenghts will work as a massive indirect debuff This has really all been dicsussed before.

The argument that links are essential for anything is misleading imo. Myself being quite a bad pilot i'm still able to fight 1vsmany most of the time and have a lot of fun doing it. It's not that hard really. You can still fit a kiting gang that will work just fine but within the fitting boundaries of balanced hulls! Why do you think CCP balances stuff at all?The only situation where you really need links is when the enemy has them. The idea of needings links imo comes from the fact that players got used to bluntly doing things in pvp they shouldn't be able to do in the first place.
FT Cold
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#177 - 2015-03-12 19:56:44 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
FT Cold wrote:
For all of the people who believe that boosters are 100% safe, you can check out my KB.


They're 100% safe if you aren't completely ********. Combat probes on dscan is kindof hard to miss.


If they're forced to cloak or warp off then the links are down. OP success. Otherwise, if they don't press dscan for 20 seconds, I get a shiny killmail.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#178 - 2015-03-12 20:14:17 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Put OGBs in killmails. We'll be able to correlate OGB alts with their mains and make smarter decisions about probing down the OGB and killing them before engaging the main.

Let the players solve this problem instead of changing the mechanic.



Put logistics in there aswell and you got a deal!
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#179 - 2015-03-12 20:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
maCH'EttE wrote:
Budda Kuha wrote:
You can see it that way but wouldn't it be actually better to get rid of a bad mechanic which does very little to enhance gameplay but hurts accessability by a whole lot? Eve is a complex game and that's what great about it but links add very little to that complexity but increase the barrier to actually play it for casuals by a whole lot. imo that's just not a good idea. You can turn this whole thing into a discourse about free will but at the end of the day 40k players are better than 25k. Wouldn't you agree?

The notion that links help small gangs is imo a total misconception as i tried to argue earlier.

You are just a f'en troll and this thead should be never posted again.


Not empty quoting.

Most appropriate music to listen to while reading this thread.
Faenir Antollare
For Ever And Ever
#180 - 2015-03-12 20:53:20 UTC
So many words, yet now just two still suffice.. combat probes.

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