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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1221 - 2015-03-11 18:26:39 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Supercap owners only?

Like the porche club but more exclusive.


Never owned one, try again.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1222 - 2015-03-11 18:28:18 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

It does constitute and active defense. Again, noone's contesting that. We're simply saying that it lends itself to an N+1 solution, which isn't good when considered within the stated goals of Fozziesov. You need a mechanic for smaller groups, who will always be outnumbered by their targets, to effectively harass and contest sov.

And that means, barring any other option, Interceptors.


Cov-ops, t3, cyno, fighting your way in.

Lots of options that would lead to fights without breaking the game.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1223 - 2015-03-11 18:28:20 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Supercap owners only?

you can contest sov without using supercaps in the current system

we do it with torpedo bombers and ishtars all the time

it just really sucks

Good point

Supercap owners and their F1 monkey support fleets only?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1224 - 2015-03-11 18:29:46 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Supercap owners only?

you can contest sov without using supercaps in the current system

we do it with torpedo bombers and ishtars all the time

it just really sucks

Good point

Supercap owners and their F1 monkey support fleets only?

technically an ishtar fleet doesn't require its members to push F1 because drone assist still exists
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1225 - 2015-03-11 18:31:26 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Your utter lack of sov war experience is more telling.

Experience grinding masses of EHP has no relevance in Fozziesov, experience with timer based capture mechanics does. The current way of doing things is going to be completely undone in June, barring something extraordinary. And, just in case you're confused, FW is the Occupancy Sov basis that this current Fozziesov has grown from.

baltec1 wrote:
How much fun are you going to have with chasing shadows for years with no reward? You keep on making the assumption the only way to avoid people is by warping, intercepters don't need to warp to avoid getting shot at, they just outrun everything.

False. Interceptors without links / implants won't outrun Interceptors with them, much less faster ships like oversized props and the like. Not to mention the fact that there's several counters that don't require me to be anywhere near catching it - within 60-100km or so is more than sufficient. Again, your lack of knowledge of combat outside of Megathrons is showing.

Also, it would be easy for a rich coalition - like yours - to offer bounties on killmails during your Prime Time in your space where the victim has an Entosis Link fitted. Since CCP isn't going to incentivize you with isk to do the job, perhaps it's time for Gewns vaunted logisitcal organization to jump in and fix that problem on their own. You know, those player solutions to problems that CCP Fozzie mentioned.

baltec1 wrote:
This is nothing like FW and the groups that take part in sov wars are nothing like those in FW.

You're right. FW corps have no issue fighting for their space day in and day out. Nullbears who have grown lazy behind shields of bubblewalls and supercaps on the other hand...

baltec1 wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
I really really hope that CCP continues to allow Entosis Links on Interceptors. It will result in the biggest buckets of nullbear tears since Pheobe.
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Your tears are going to be so delicious.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1226 - 2015-03-11 18:33:50 UTC
@CCP Fozzie, thank you for addressing some the the mechanical questions regarding the Entosis Links and how they will interact with ships and sov. Let me summarize and we can see if I have it right.


  1. Attacker A shows up on grid with a sov structure. He locks it, and then activates Entosis link, assuming he is inside the optimal rang of the module. The ship is now subject to the negative effects listed in post one for the duration of the Link's cycle time or until the ship is destroyed, whichever comes first.

  2. After the first cycle is completed, and thus a second cycle begins, capture of the sov structure will begin. The amount of time required depends on sov indices.

  3. If for any reason you lose lock on the sov object, capture will cease. The Entosis Link module will complete its cycle.


This is exactly what I was expecting. If your ship loses lock while an offensive active module is cycling (weapons, EWAR, etc), those modules will do exactly the same thing. Most people simply don't notice because the cycle time is so short. What I wasn't expecting is for the Entosis module to disallow cloaking. I can't say I'm disappointed.

Now this begs another question: If I am in the process of capturing a sov structure I lose lock and then reestablish lock before the module cycle time is completed, will capture recommence immediately or do I have to wait to start a new cycle on my Entosis Link?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1227 - 2015-03-11 18:35:08 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Because FW players have never whined about stabbed gunless frigates, or people cloaking in plexs, and certainly never complained about the terrifying spectre of invisible recons lurking in every plex.

Wait, is this what this is about? Are you mad at us over being happy with the Recon change?

A search of my post history would reveal that my response to those who whined about stabbed frigates was generally a) fit more scrams and b) a stabbed cloaky plexing alt will never keep me from taking a plex I want to have. In other words, something similar to what I'm telling you all: HTFU and go fix the damn problem instead of whining for CCP to make it easy for you.

Also, I don't care about the Recon change, I think it's kind of cool actually. Most of the time we end up killing the Recon who thinks he's being clever.

But again, we tend to just find ways to murder people in the face in spite of the mechanical disadvantages, rather than whining to CCP to make it easy for us. Cultural differences I suppose.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1228 - 2015-03-11 18:38:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
And that means, barring any other option, Interceptors.

Cov-ops, t3, cyno, fighting your way in.

Lots of options that would lead to fights without breaking the game.

Nullified Interceptors aren't breaking the game now, won't be when they get sovlazors as well. The fact that you all don't want to deal with it - i.e. it might ruin *your* game - doesn't mean it's game breaking on an EVE-wide scale.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1229 - 2015-03-11 18:39:35 UTC
Personally, I'm all for the Trollceptors. Null needs to be shaken up, and it's hilarious to see all the tears over how trolls are going to destroy everything and destroy morale and wah wah wah. There's an answer for everything in this game, people just need to start thinking outside of the box to find it.

Want to stop an interceptor that's currently running an Entosis Link on your structure? Here's some options:
1) Halt the capture progress by applying your own Entosis Link.
2) Hit the Interceptor with a Remote Sensor Dampener II. Who cares how fast he's going if he can't lock outside of 10km.
3) Utilize Acolyte EV-300, Warrior SW-300 and Hobgoblin SD-300 drones to trip up the Interceptor.
4) Use a sniper loaded with tracking scripts and boosted by Remote Tracking Computer IIs loaded with tracking scripts.
5) Use Missiles and Target Painters.
6) Use a combination of all of the above.

If that's still too much for you, then you don't deserve the system.

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1230 - 2015-03-11 18:40:43 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Now this begs another question: If I am in the process of capturing a sov structure I lose lock and then reestablish lock before the module cycle time is completed, will capture recommence immediately or do I have to wait to start a new cycle on my Entosis Link?

And more importantly, if capture is halted after lock is reestablished but before the cycle ends, do you have to spend a full cycle re-connecting / re-calibrating / whatever before the timer starts ticking again?

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1231 - 2015-03-11 18:44:33 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
woe be to the yoke of lowsec where you can evac your fw beacon orbiting frigates at will with a neutral character

that is the sum of your assets that are "at risk" because lowsec does not allow you to actually deploy personal assets like ihubs and outposts nor does it allow you to be meaningfully locked out of any station (hint: black frog exists)

Since under Fozziesov you'll have 48 hours of Freeport, and since Black Frog exists, and since A+B = you can evac any assets you have should something go wrong...

... does that mean that noone in nullsec will have any assets at risk under Fozziesov?

Hmm....

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#1232 - 2015-03-11 18:46:33 UTC
Concord should give ISK rewards to defenders who successfully defend a capture node. I can attack the node with my neutral alt. I can then orbit my own structures and save them. Repeat this for four hours a day and not worry about what else I could be doing with my life. Then the parallel with FW will be complete.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1233 - 2015-03-11 18:46:51 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Experience grinding masses of EHP has no relevance in Fozziesov, experience with timer based capture mechanics does. The current way of doing things is going to be completely undone in June, barring something extraordinary. And, just in case you're confused, FW is the Occupancy Sov basis that this current Fozziesov has grown from.


[/quote]

Fun fact, most wars we have fought were won before we grinded out most of the structures. Killing structures is soul destroying but at least there is a KM in the end.

Veskrashen wrote:

False. Interceptors without links / implants won't outrun Interceptors with them, much less faster ships like oversized props and the like. Not to mention the fact that there's several counters that don't require me to be anywhere near catching it - within 60-100km or so is more than sufficient. Again, your lack of knowledge of combat outside of Megathrons is showing.


What makes you think the attackers wont be bringing their own implants and boosters? Also, by the time you warp to an interceptor it will be out of range of your 100km range ship, by the time you lock it it will be out of range of your 150km sniper. You don't catch interceptors with sniperboats.

Veskrashen wrote:

Also, it would be easy for a rich coalition - like yours - to offer bounties on killmails during your Prime Time in your space where the victim has an Entosis Link fitted. Since CCP isn't going to incentivize you with isk to do the job, perhaps it's time for Gewns vaunted logisitcal organization to jump in and fix that problem on their own. You know, those player solutions to problems that CCP Fozzie mentioned.


Bounties that will rarely if ever get paid out because you wont be getting KM.

Veskrashen wrote:

You're right. FW corps have no issue fighting for their space day in and day out. Nullbears who have grown lazy behind shields of bubblewalls and supercaps on the other hand...


When was the last time you got rapecaged for a week in FW and then lost a few trillion in assets?

Veskrashen wrote:

Your tears are going to be so delicious.


And here we see another example of a misuse of that phrase. It is not tears to point out a fundamental flaw in a new sov system that people would abuse.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1234 - 2015-03-11 18:47:37 UTC
Kristian Hackett wrote:
Personally, I'm all for the Trollceptors. Null needs to be shaken up, and it's hilarious to see all the tears over how trolls are going to destroy everything and destroy morale and wah wah wah. There's an answer for everything in this game, people just need to start thinking outside of the box to find it.

Want to stop an interceptor that's currently running an Entosis Link on your structure? Here's some options:
1) Halt the capture progress by applying your own Entosis Link.
2) Hit the Interceptor with a Remote Sensor Dampener II. Who cares how fast he's going if he can't lock outside of 10km.
3) Utilize Acolyte EV-300, Warrior SW-300 and Hobgoblin SD-300 drones to trip up the Interceptor.
4) Use a sniper loaded with tracking scripts and boosted by Remote Tracking Computer IIs loaded with tracking scripts.
5) Use Missiles and Target Painters.
6) Use a combination of all of the above.

If that's still too much for you, then you don't deserve the system.


1) Would work.
2) Would work if he does not want to fight. (Pretty likely.)
3) Do you have any idea how bad those drones are? Most of them can't even catch up to an interceptor, let alone effect it in any meaningful way.
4) At range, this could work.
5) Interceptors have little issue outrunning missiles, especially at long range.
6) Not worth responding to.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1235 - 2015-03-11 18:48:39 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Nullified Interceptors aren't breaking the game now,


We arn't talking about now, we a talking about when the new sov lands.
Kristian Hackett
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1236 - 2015-03-11 18:53:23 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Kristian Hackett wrote:
Personally, I'm all for the Trollceptors. Null needs to be shaken up, and it's hilarious to see all the tears over how trolls are going to destroy everything and destroy morale and wah wah wah. There's an answer for everything in this game, people just need to start thinking outside of the box to find it.

Want to stop an interceptor that's currently running an Entosis Link on your structure? Here's some options:
1) Halt the capture progress by applying your own Entosis Link.
2) Hit the Interceptor with a Remote Sensor Dampener II. Who cares how fast he's going if he can't lock outside of 10km.
3) Utilize Acolyte EV-300, Warrior SW-300 and Hobgoblin SD-300 drones to trip up the Interceptor.
4) Use a sniper loaded with tracking scripts and boosted by Remote Tracking Computer IIs loaded with tracking scripts.
5) Use Missiles and Target Painters.
6) Use a combination of all of the above.

If that's still too much for you, then you don't deserve the system.


1) Would work.
2) Would work if he does not want to fight. (Pretty likely.)
3) Do you have any idea how bad those drones are? Most of them can't even catch up to an interceptor, let alone effect it in any meaningful way.
4) At range, this could work.
5) Interceptors have little issue outrunning missiles, especially at long range.
6) Not worth responding to.

In repsonse:

3) Well, looks like we've just ID'd another area that could use some rebalancing.
5) Most likely, yea, the damage won't even scratch his shields unless you can trip him up with a web. Use in conjunction with a webifier (Cruors would be great for this with the Webifier bonus).
6) Hey look! Combo 1, 2 & 4 to kick some ass!

Aircraft Maintenance - Using a high school diploma to fix what a college degree just f***ed up. "Life is too short to drink cheap beer."
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1237 - 2015-03-11 18:54:04 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Supercap owners only?

you can contest sov without using supercaps in the current system

we do it with torpedo bombers and ishtars all the time

it just really sucks

It's easier after the sov structure ehp nerf

Ask northernassociates.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1238 - 2015-03-11 18:56:22 UTC
This thread is pretty hilarious and delivers:

Lots and lots of fantasizing. I know your "sov laser" is massive and long (reaches out 250km, right) but seriously...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1239 - 2015-03-11 18:56:25 UTC
Kristian Hackett wrote:


3) Well, looks like we've just ID'd another area that could use some rebalancing.
5) Most likely, yea, the damage won't even scratch his shields unless you can trip him up with a web. Use in conjunction with a webifier (Cruors would be great for this with the Webifier bonus).
6) Hey look! Combo 1, 2 & 4 to kick some ass!


So how do you plan to grab said trollcepter with a web when it is both faster than you by a large margin and has range on you?
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1240 - 2015-03-11 18:58:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
So how do you plan to grab said trollcepter with a web when it is both faster than you by a large margin and has range on you?

When defending your own structure one would presume a cloaked ship could tell you which of your preprepared bookmarks would be a suitable warp in to allow for the current momentum of the target.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager