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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1201 - 2015-03-11 17:52:01 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harry Saq wrote:
@CCP Fozzie
Would it be feasible to have the Entosis module activate an interface as suggested in m prior post here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5570599#post5570599

All of the balance issues mentioned would be answered if the pilot were fully engaged while running the laser, and it would require teamwork, as multiboxing support ships would also not be ideal or feasible.


We'd much rather allow the Entosis Link ship to continue fighting and maneuvering to stay alive while it captures.

This is at odds with your stated objective that capture be predicated on controlling the field. If one side controls the field, then there is no need for the Entosis Link ship to do anything but run the laser. If the Entosis Link ship needs "to continue fighting and maneuvering to stay alive" then obviously his/her side does not control the field.

MDD


Glad someone else caught that too.

Actually it's all about not gimping the Entosis Link boat while it's trying to gain dominance of the field. If you're stuck head down in a minigame, you're easy prey for defenders.

In short, it's a bad idea, and you should feel bad for proposing it.

Astute individuals will also note that every single suggestion being put forward so far is about how to make the ships using Entosis Links slower, easier to catch in bubbles, otherwise remove their mobility, or otherwise put them at a combat disadvantage. In short, every single critique is about how to make it easier for the defender to get rid of an attacker quickly so they can go back to playing DOTA on the other screen.

It's frankly more than a bit ridiculous.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1202 - 2015-03-11 17:53:36 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Try talking to folks who actually have to deal with similar mechanics today - i.e. FW pilots - and you'll get a bazillion ideas on how to leverage the defensive advantages you have.

fyi fw folks can catch interceptors because acceleration gates don't allow you to warp in at range

everyone gets dumped into the same spot on the destination grid

when i was a more destitute gbs i used to abuse this fact to keep myself safe when running DED plexes

also because there is no gate cloak, the interceptor doesn't get to eat the first server tick decloaking, an RSB'd coked out frigate can easily snag the interceptor then

none of these things happen in nullsec
Philip Ogtaulmolfi
We are not bad. Just unlucky
#1203 - 2015-03-11 18:02:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Philip Ogtaulmolfi
Princess Cherista wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Anyone that can be assed to defend their space will succeed. WELL DONE, FULL MARKS SHERLOCK.

But who wants to chase interceptors around for 4 hours a night or whatever the primetime is for no fight and no kills. Do you??


You dont. You do whatever you are doing and when the ceptor appears, you let it work for 30 minutes with it's link and then you log a character in the system, an alt, call a mate that is doing industry or go back to your home system, break the lock of the ceptor and go back to your business. If he is particularly dedicated he can do this 6 times in the window and your alliance will nedd around 12 minutes*man to negate him.

Who will get bored before?

Edit: True 5/5/5 systems will be rare. Reduced from 38-->30 minutes
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1204 - 2015-03-11 18:03:47 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
fyi fw folks can catch interceptors because acceleration gates don't allow you to warp in at range

everyone gets dumped into the same spot on the destination grid

when i was a more destitute gbs i used to abuse this fact to keep myself safe when running DED plexes

also because there is no gate cloak, the interceptor doesn't get to eat the first server tick decloaking, an RSB'd coked out frigate can easily snag the interceptor then

none of these things happen in nullsec

1. We run them down and catch them on the open field just as easily.
2. Combat probes mean you can get pretty damn close on demand - which isn't a mechanic we can abuse in FW due to deadspace.

Look, in lowsec we don't have the luxury of bubbles. We generally can't control who docks in the systems we live in. We have zero control over local and zero control over who wanders in and out of our space.

So, we've never gotten lazy enough to depend on big masses of bubbles for passive defense. We've never had big fleets of supercaps that ensured our assets were never at risk. We never pretended to control movement in our home regions.

So, since we can't reasonably keep them out, and can't reasonably keep them from moving around, we simply choose to focus on how best to murder them in the face when they choose to mess with something we care about.

I suppose that gives me a different approach than nullbears who are much more used to passive security.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1205 - 2015-03-11 18:06:53 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
The fact that a defender can easily "bottle up" a group of BLOPS boats or SBs or folks coming in through a wormhole is precisely the reason...

You've still yet to explain how this does not constitute an active defence. If I've chased you, and trapped you, I have done my job. Now fight or die.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1206 - 2015-03-11 18:09:58 UTC
Just safe up and cloak.

Pretend it is a mass afk cloak op.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1207 - 2015-03-11 18:12:19 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Your ignorance and nullbear blinders are showing.


Your utter lack of sov war experience is more telling.

Veskrashen wrote:

If you can't handle solo Interceptors with no tank who can't disengage at will, you're completely blind to the advantages you have as a defender.


How much fun are you going to have with chasing shadows for years with no reward? You keep on making the assumption the only way to avoid people is by warping, intercepters don't need to warp to avoid getting shot at, they just outrun everything.

Veskrashen wrote:

Try talking to folks who actually have to deal with similar mechanics today - i.e. FW pilots - and you'll get a bazillion ideas on how to leverage the defensive advantages you have.


This is nothing like FW and the groups that take part in sov wars are nothing like those in FW.

Veskrashen wrote:

I really really hope that CCP continues to allow Entosis Links on Interceptors. It will result in the biggest buckets of nullbear tears since Pheobe.


This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1208 - 2015-03-11 18:15:25 UTC
Philip Ogtaulmolfi wrote:
Princess Cherista wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Anyone that can be assed to defend their space will succeed. WELL DONE, FULL MARKS SHERLOCK.

But who wants to chase interceptors around for 4 hours a night or whatever the primetime is for no fight and no kills. Do you??


You dont. You do whatever you are doing and when the ceptor appears, you let it work for 38 minutes with it's link and then you log a character in the system, an alt, call a mate that is doing industry or go back to your home system, break the lock of the ceptor and go back to your business. If he is particularly dedicated he can do this 6 times in the window and your alliance will nedd around 12 minutes/man to negate him.

Who will get bored before?


Most systems wont even take 20 min to knock over.

Also the fact that the only answer you have involves no fights and no kills shows just how horrible it will be countering swarms of these things for 4 hours a day every day for year after year.
Harry Saq
Of Tears and ISK
ISK.Net
#1209 - 2015-03-11 18:15:38 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Harry Saq wrote:
@CCP Fozzie
Would it be feasible to have the Entosis module activate an interface as suggested in m prior post here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5570599#post5570599

All of the balance issues mentioned would be answered if the pilot were fully engaged while running the laser, and it would require teamwork, as multiboxing support ships would also not be ideal or feasible.


We'd much rather allow the Entosis Link ship to continue fighting and maneuvering to stay alive while it captures.

This is at odds with your stated objective that capture be predicated on controlling the field. If one side controls the field, then there is no need for the Entosis Link ship to do anything but run the laser. If the Entosis Link ship needs "to continue fighting and maneuvering to stay alive" then obviously his/her side does not control the field.

MDD


Glad someone else caught that too.

Actually it's all about not gimping the Entosis Link boat while it's trying to gain dominance of the field. If you're stuck head down in a minigame, you're easy prey for defenders.

In short, it's a bad idea, and you should feel bad for proposing it.

Astute individuals will also note that every single suggestion being put forward so far is about how to make the ships using Entosis Links slower, easier to catch in bubbles, otherwise remove their mobility, or otherwise put them at a combat disadvantage. In short, every single critique is about how to make it easier for the defender to get rid of an attacker quickly so they can go back to playing DOTA on the other screen.

It's frankly more than a bit ridiculous.


My suggestion does not do any of what you are saying, in fact the entosis fit ship is completely unnaffected and is free to fight off whomever, play DOTA or facebook, all at the expense of achieving the objective.

As stated, the design objective stated by CCP of the Entosis links are directly as follows:

  • As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid.
  • The optimal strategy for fighting over a location with the Entosis Link should be to gain effective control of the grid.
  • The Entosis Link itself should have the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose.
  • The restrictions and penalties on the Entosis Link should be as simple and understandable as possible.

Simply being engaged while running the module achieves everything above, AND CAN ACTUALLY BE FUN if done correctly. Nothing about being engaged while running the module affects any of the tactics involved in gaining control of the grid, or even getting there, it just means someone running it actually (GOD FORBID) has something interesting to do while it cycles, and can voluntarily suck and be inefficient at it in order to STAY ALIVE or respond to a change in battlefield conditions.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1210 - 2015-03-11 18:16:31 UTC
No fights and no kills.

Ah this is great content we got here.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1211 - 2015-03-11 18:16:50 UTC
Thanks for the detailed feedback this early into the process, Fozzie. I'm glad you guys are opting for alliance-wide notifications (unlike role-based ones for pos alerts) so line members can go find content/defensive ops on their own without waiting for the directorates to notify people what's going on - given how quick a non-indexed system can be hacked, any other kind of notification system wouldn't really work for the defender.

~hi~
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1212 - 2015-03-11 18:18:03 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:

I really really hope that CCP continues to allow Entosis Links on Interceptors. It will result in the biggest buckets of nullbear tears since Pheobe.

This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Cripes, I really am agreeing with baltec1. Someone must've spiked my coffee.....
Though I wish that CCP would implement this for everything....
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1213 - 2015-03-11 18:18:18 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

1. We run them down and catch them on the open field just as easily.
2. Combat probes mean you can get pretty damn close on demand - which isn't a mechanic we can abuse in FW due to deadspace.

Look, in lowsec we don't have the luxury of bubbles. We generally can't control who docks in the systems we live in. We have zero control over local and zero control over who wanders in and out of our space.

So, we've never gotten lazy enough to depend on big masses of bubbles for passive defense. We've never had big fleets of supercaps that ensured our assets were never at risk. We never pretended to control movement in our home regions.

So, since we can't reasonably keep them out, and can't reasonably keep them from moving around, we simply choose to focus on how best to murder them in the face when they choose to mess with something we care about.

I suppose that gives me a different approach than nullbears who are much more used to passive security.

woe be to the yoke of lowsec where you can evac your fw beacon orbiting frigates at will with a neutral character

that is the sum of your assets that are "at risk" because lowsec does not allow you to actually deploy personal assets like ihubs and outposts nor does it allow you to be meaningfully locked out of any station (hint: black frog exists)

note that i am leaving pos out of this because we have more lowsec pos than you

also you're putting a lot of action into unguarded anchorable bubbles, whose only ability is to moderately slow down anyone stupid enough to fly an un-nullified ship into hostile territory

keeping people out of your space implies that there is something of yours worth guarding against which to deny access, which does not describe lowsec at all

trying to then ascribe the qualities of that sort of space to a section of space which is completely different is facile af
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1214 - 2015-03-11 18:18:35 UTC
Basically, it's because everyone, like massadeath, sees themselves as being a potential attacker

while people with sov, like evil blobbing coalitions, won't have a choice in being the defender


Thus it is important to ensure the attacker gets as much as possible out of the entosis link mechanic. otherwise how will moa end our 0.0 nightmare

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1215 - 2015-03-11 18:20:25 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

1. We run them down and catch them on the open field just as easily.
2. Combat probes mean you can get pretty damn close on demand - which isn't a mechanic we can abuse in FW due to deadspace.

Look, in lowsec we don't have the luxury of bubbles. We generally can't control who docks in the systems we live in. We have zero control over local and zero control over who wanders in and out of our space.

So, we've never gotten lazy enough to depend on big masses of bubbles for passive defense. We've never had big fleets of supercaps that ensured our assets were never at risk. We never pretended to control movement in our home regions.

So, since we can't reasonably keep them out, and can't reasonably keep them from moving around, we simply choose to focus on how best to murder them in the face when they choose to mess with something we care about.

I suppose that gives me a different approach than nullbears who are much more used to passive security.
Because FW players have never whined about stabbed gunless frigates, or people cloaking in plexs, and certainly never complained about the terrifying spectre of invisible recons lurking in every plex.

Wait, is this what this is about? Are you mad at us over being happy with the Recon change?
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1216 - 2015-03-11 18:23:37 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
The fact that a defender can easily "bottle up" a group of BLOPS boats or SBs or folks coming in through a wormhole is precisely the reason...

You've still yet to explain how this does not constitute an active defence. If I've chased you, and trapped you, I have done my job. Now fight or die.

It does constitute and active defense. Again, noone's contesting that. We're simply saying that it lends itself to an N+1 solution, which isn't good when considered within the stated goals of Fozziesov. You need a mechanic for smaller groups, who will always be outnumbered by their targets, to effectively harass and contest sov.

And that means, barring any other option, Interceptors.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Yroc Jannseen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1217 - 2015-03-11 18:24:17 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:


So, we've never gotten lazy enough to depend on big masses of bubbles for passive defense. We've never had big fleets of supercaps that ensured our assets were never at risk. We never pretended to control movement in our home regions.

So, since we can't reasonably keep them out, and can't reasonably keep them from moving around, we simply choose to focus on how best to murder them in the face when they choose to mess with something we care about.

I suppose that gives me a different approach than nullbears who are much more used to passive security.


Any asset in a low sec station is never "at risk"
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1218 - 2015-03-11 18:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
baltec1 wrote:
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Supercap owners only?

Like the porche club but more exclusive.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1219 - 2015-03-11 18:25:59 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
This is why people with zero experience with sov warfare should not be in this thread.

Supercap owners only?

you can contest sov without using supercaps in the current system

we do it with torpedo bombers and ishtars all the time

it just really sucks
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#1220 - 2015-03-11 18:26:11 UTC
The Answer to everything:


**** Sov, just let your stations get into freeport mode and enjoy the brawl.
All you gotta do is keep the entosis running for 4 hours then, while slaughtering everything that isn't you and your blues.