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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

First post First post First post
Author
God's Apples
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#821 - 2015-03-09 22:36:16 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
God's Apples wrote:

Think about it. To defend against 50 inties you need 3 celestises, a huginn, a lach, 3 guardians, and a couple long range dps (protei, legions, zealots, ishtars, etc). Remember that with the exception of the guardians, all of those ships can fit entosis links of their own (the 125 AC is just a placeholder on my celestis fit). There, you just countered a 50 man inty blob with 10 - 12 dudes.

how does this recon/sniper gang cover 50 objectives at once


Lemme break it down. There are 5 objectives. You have 50 dudes. The enemy has a 250 man interceptor fleet. You break your gang into 5 sub-units of the comp I describe above. Each sub-unit defends one objective. If the enemy gang splits itself into 5 groups like you are suggesting that inties will do in order to cover the most ground, then you can easily defend by having each of your gangs sit at 0 on the objective beacons.

If you need more than 5x the numbers to beat an enemy, then your strategy is flawed and you need to rethink your gameplan.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#822 - 2015-03-09 22:36:54 UTC
Tycho VI wrote:
Some people might find it fun....but honestly, having to attend 4 hour CTA where u gotta go out and deal with arty claw fleets, svipul fleets, exclusively where no real value is put on the table...all the time....otherwise your station assets get locked out...

meh might actually have more fun just staging out of lowsec and being the problem

So, you've giving up your 0.0 dream to northernassociates then?

Ooohh, are you going to join moa and take away our 0.0 dream?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#823 - 2015-03-09 22:37:26 UTC
God's Apples wrote:
Lemme break it down. There are 5 objectives. You have 50 dudes. The enemy has a 250 man interceptor fleet. You break your gang into 5 sub-units of the comp I describe above. Each sub-unit defends one objective. If the enemy gang splits itself into 5 groups like you are suggesting that inties will do in order to cover the most ground, then you can easily defend by having each of your gangs sit at 0 on the objective beacons.

If you need more than 5x the numbers to beat an enemy, then your strategy is flawed and you need to rethink your gameplan.

no there are three times as many objectives as you have systems

i guess if you have one station system and one unstationed system then you have five
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#824 - 2015-03-09 22:38:18 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

i see that your tactic is now making the engagement range smaller and smaller when the interceptor is shrugging out at 120km


I'm not seeing what the problem there is. It will kill the interceptor. Regardless of if its at 120 or 40. If it's closer than 40 it wouldn't be necessary at all, and a Rapier can kill it. So again, do you have a point? Or are you just spamming up the thread to make it hard for CCP to catch up?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#825 - 2015-03-09 22:40:00 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......

argumentum ad populum

Not really, since most of Eve isn't goonies. Do you wanna try to refute facts or just divert?

Promiscuous Female wrote:

the interceptor did not die and is hitting a new structure


And wasted 10-35 minutes doing so compared to the defenders 2-4 minutes. That'll repeat in the "new" structure unless it's undefended......


They have no legs to stand on so all they can do is spam and divert.

truly your eft warrioring has swept my legs out from under me

this increasingly shorter procession of effective ranges is bound to slay me eventually

i am continually wetting my pants in trepidation for your next post, most likely a blaster brutix
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#826 - 2015-03-09 22:40:09 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


Do you like the idea of the 1000 Goon sov laser raid on all and sundry? Because it will happen and it will be funny. Also, stop being bitter because we're right, just like the tech nerf, just like the sentry nerf.
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#827 - 2015-03-09 22:43:35 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

truly your eft warrioring has swept my legs out from under me

this increasingly shorter procession of effective ranges is bound to slay me eventually

i am continually wetting my pants in trepidation for your next post, most likely a blaster brutix


You've yet to show why a sniper corm won't kill an Inty, thus you have no legs to stand on. All of your posts lack substance, so either you're trolling or intentionally spamming up the thread to hide the fact that the inties are in fact counterable.

It' basic PVP, if someone is too far away, load longer range ammo. If someone is closer, load higher damage/better tracking. So tell me, how are these mythical trollceptors going to take over all of null if a 15m cormorant can kill them or drive them off?

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#828 - 2015-03-09 22:44:40 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

argumentum ad populum

Not really, since most of Eve isn't goonies. Do you wanna try to refute facts or just divert?

Promiscuous Female wrote:

the interceptor did not die and is hitting a new structure


And wasted 10-35 minutes doing so compared to the defenders 2-4 minutes. That'll repeat in the "new" structure unless it's undefended......


They have no legs to stand on so all they can do is spam and divert.

truly your eft warrioring has swept my legs out from under me

this increasingly shorter procession of effective ranges is bound to slay me eventually

i am continually wetting my pants in trepidation for your next post, most likely a blaster brutix


Clearly you and the goons don't like a ship that can bypass gate camps. The tears are overwhelming. Is it really so difficult for you to launch a single frigate in a system? I thought you goonies claimed "overwhelming numbers" and "we'll burn down nullsec with trollceptors?" I'm confused.......which is it? Burning down nullsec, boring gameplay where you waste a half an hour for every 5 minutes of the defender, or will it be something different in a few days......for the Sake of EVE?
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#829 - 2015-03-09 22:46:31 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

You've yet to show why a sniper corm won't kill an Inty, thus you have no legs to stand on.

the interceptor burns out of the sniper cormorant's ridicuously tiny window of effective damage application

it has the time to do this because dscan, warp deceleration, and the interceptor's tiny signature radius exist

i said this before but i guess the alliance tag i am wearing to the left of my posts is forming some sort of information prism where objective facts get transmuted into agitprop
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#830 - 2015-03-09 22:47:09 UTC
OK, I had to go back to the start to remember what this thread is about. Imagine my surprise when it wasn't interceptors. Oh, they were mentioned

Quote:
This is the other side of the coin. In practice it means that we should discourage mechanics that lead to indefinite stalemates over a structure or command node. This is the reason for the "no remote reps" condition on active Links. This is also the goal that trollceptors would contradict if they were to become dominant.


So I am willing to see how it develops. Prom Fem could be right, could be wrong . . . not worth losing sleep over, either way.

Quote:
We would like this thread to become a place of discussion around the Entosis Link mechanics, the ships that you expect to use them on, and the tactics you foresee becoming popular. What issues do you foresee popping up? How do you think these goals should be adjusted or refocused? Which of the many module balance dials do you think would be the most intuitive?


I understand the worries but let's look at some other ideas along the way. Mins one about fuel to run the link, Making hit and run throughout a region problematic without logistical support.

Or the more reasonable one about a proper fleet challenging another proper fleet. Of course if the goal is dominance of the grid then it is reasonable for the larger fleet to win, no? Even if one of the goals was to lessen the impact of N+1

Can interceptors be an irritant? Yes.
Can they be chased off to irritate someone else? Yes
If properly prepared can they be swatted? Probably.

Why is nobody bringing up caps as a viable composition?
How about Stealth Bombers? (I think they would be fairly good at it, especially if blops behind the lines of a larger organization.)
It is hard to imagine this being playtested on Sisi because so much of it WILL be psyops. So we can theroycraft and posture all you want . . . it will be tested when the rubber hits the road.

I agree that maybe one of the things that needs looking at is how the indices are done, so more organizations have a method of getting to the magic 40 number as part of their defense.

yeeah, I am caught up . . . darn you, Potato for stealing my gimmick of thread stats.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#831 - 2015-03-09 22:47:18 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


Do you like the idea of the 1000 Goon sov laser raid on all and sundry? Because it will happen and it will be funny. Also, stop being bitter because we're right, just like the tech nerf, just like the sentry nerf.


I cherish the idea. You waste a ton of time and are countered by a single person with a few minutes? How long can you keep that up? That's just to RF a structure.....you actually have to come back LOL.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#832 - 2015-03-09 22:48:42 UTC
Acuma wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


Do you like the idea of the 1000 Goon sov laser raid on all and sundry? Because it will happen and it will be funny. Also, stop being bitter because we're right, just like the tech nerf, just like the sentry nerf.


I cherish the idea. You waste a ton of time and are countered by a single person with a few minutes? How long can you keep that up? That's just to RF a structure.....you actually have to come back LOL.

Wait, but if that's the case then how will moa end our 0.0 dream.

Was I just being lied to all this time? MASSADEATTHHHHHHHHHHHH

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#833 - 2015-03-09 22:50:30 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
OK, I had to go back to the start to remember what this thread is about. Imagine my surprise when it wasn't interceptors. Oh, they were mentioned

Quote:
This is the other side of the coin. In practice it means that we should discourage mechanics that lead to indefinite stalemates over a structure or command node. This is the reason for the "no remote reps" condition on active Links. This is also the goal that trollceptors would contradict if they were to become dominant.


So I am willing to see how it develops. Prom Fem could be right, could be wrong . . . not worth losing sleep over, either way.

Quote:
We would like this thread to become a place of discussion around the Entosis Link mechanics, the ships that you expect to use them on, and the tactics you foresee becoming popular. What issues do you foresee popping up? How do you think these goals should be adjusted or refocused? Which of the many module balance dials do you think would be the most intuitive?


I understand the worries but let's look at some other ideas along the way. Mins one about fuel to run the link, Making hit and run throughout a region problematic without logistical support.

Or the more reasonable one about a proper fleet challenging another proper fleet. Of course if the goal is dominance of the grid then it is reasonable for the larger fleet to win, no? Even if one of the goals was to lessen the impact of N+1

Can interceptors be an irritant? Yes.
Can they be chased off to irritate someone else? Yes
If properly prepared can they be swatted? Probably.

Why is nobody bringing up caps as a viable composition?
How about Stealth Bombers? (I think they would be fairly good at it, especially if blops behind the lines of a larger organization.)
It is hard to imagine this being playtested on Sisi because so much of it WILL be psyops. So we can theroycraft and posture all you want . . . it will be tested when the rubber hits the road.

I agree that maybe one of the things that needs looking at is how the indices are done, so more organizations have a method of getting to the magic 40 number as part of their defense.

yeeah, I am caught up . . . darn you, Potato for stealing my gimmick of thread stats.

m


stealth bombers would be fairly irritating but it's actually possible to catch them so they are fine

caps would be very effective on defense but as an attacking force they would probably suffer pretty harshly from the 4x longer cycle time

my favorite (read: wildest, least plausible) defense scenario is parking a single aeon on every cap point with a cyno fit in case the feces hits the fan
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#834 - 2015-03-09 22:50:55 UTC
Acuma wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


So were you also one of the people that defended tech moons when we said they were a terrible idea?


So you like arguing with strawmen?


Looks to me like the only rean most are supporting trollcepters is because goons are against them.

Fact is that trollcepters will be the single most annoying thing to ever happen to sov space even more so than the POS grind we first had. Not only will you have to contend with the biggest abusers of game mechanics in EVE but also everyone else in null, all the lowsec corps, WH powers and a good number of highsec to boot. There is going to be thousands of the ******* things everywhere and thats before we get into the waking nightmare that would be the CFC on a war footing.

Trollcepters dont get people fights, they only serve to sap the life from the game. Very few systems will even have 20 min timers let alone 40. For the love of god do not allow us such a tool because we will abuse it and make life for everyone else miserable.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#835 - 2015-03-09 22:53:25 UTC
you can see a mirror of this posting style in the old 2012 era Faction Warfare posts where the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal repeatedly warned CCP that their LP formula was inherently flawed

they didn't listen and the mechanic went in unmolested and, well, forex is pretty legendary now
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#836 - 2015-03-09 22:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Acuma
baltec1 wrote:
Acuma wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Acuma wrote:
Seems mostly that only the goonies are afraid of trollceptors.......even with their "superior numbers" and their "we'll burn null sec to the ground if this is allowed." Wonder why that is? Too much space? To many renters? Afraid of spread out fights instead of blobs? All it takes is a tanked out maller alt sitting on a structure......ya'll don't have alts?


So were you also one of the people that defended tech moons when we said they were a terrible idea?


So you like arguing with strawmen?


Looks to me like the only rean most are supporting trollcepters is because goons are against them.

Fact is that trollcepters will be the single most annoying thing to ever happen to sov space even more so than the POS grind we first had. Not only will you have to contend with the biggest abusers of game mechanics in EVE but also everyone else in null, all the lowsec corps, WH powers and a good number of highsec to boot. There is going to be thousands of the ******* things everywhere and thats before we get into the waking nightmare that would be the CFC on a war footing.

Trollcepters dont get people fights, they only serve to sap the life from the game. Very few systems will even have 20 min timers let alone 40. For the love of god do not allow us such a tool because we will abuse it and make life for everyone else miserable.
Sounds to me like you'll have to only be in space you can defend during your primetime.....and your timer speculation is just that, speculation. Even at the lowest timer, it will waste 10 minutes of your time for 3-4 of the defender.....in an UNUSED system lol. Sounds like you plan on being bored out your mind instead of bringing a force to actually trigger the RF.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
Goonswarm Federation
#837 - 2015-03-09 22:56:17 UTC
Acuma wrote:
in an UNUSED system lol

deklein is the most-used 0.0 region in the game
M1k3y Koontz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#838 - 2015-03-09 22:57:02 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

Or the more reasonable one about a proper fleet challenging another proper fleet. Of course if the goal is dominance of the grid then it is reasonable for the larger fleet to win, no? Even if one of the goals was to lessen the impact of N+1



If the Entosis Link becomes an N+1 module nothing will change in nullsec. The largest blob will win, as it is now; but additionally the larger blob would always win, with no chance of success for the smaller group. Just brick tank a bunch of T1 ships (Mallers are cheap and tanky), and zerg the nodes.

So no, definitely not an n+1 module.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#839 - 2015-03-09 23:00:31 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

truly your eft warrioring has swept my legs out from under me

this increasingly shorter procession of effective ranges is bound to slay me eventually

i am continually wetting my pants in trepidation for your next post, most likely a blaster brutix


You've yet to show why a sniper corm won't kill an Inty, thus you have no legs to stand on. All of your posts lack substance, so either you're trolling or intentionally spamming up the thread to hide the fact that the inties are in fact counterable.

It' basic PVP, if someone is too far away, load longer range ammo. If someone is closer, load higher damage/better tracking. So tell me, how are these mythical trollceptors going to take over all of null if a 15m cormorant can kill them or drive them off?


I hope you aren't pretending to be ignorant. Because this has been said many times before. It's not just that those things are almost impossible to catch and destroy in practice (your cormorant hypothesis is revealing of your continued ignorance of reality) it's also that they are cheap, easy to get into and does not really translate into a commitment into contesting sovereignty. It isn't that those won't end up dead in some cases, it's that those ships dying does not matter. They are dirt cheap. They are easy to obtain and sic upon a whole region. This is the problem.

If you want to be able to contest, you should be committing in the real sense.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#840 - 2015-03-09 23:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
baltec1 wrote:
Looks to me like the only rean most are supporting trollcepters is because goons are against them.
Arguing against removing something from the game when the argument for removing it revolves around spending upto 4x the time spent by a defender to 'troll' them does not mean we're doing it because grrr goons.

Now if Goons had a reasonable proposition to remove it that show it doesn't a) already have multiple in-game counter tactics and b) that it ends up wasting more of the attackers time than the defenders? Then sure we'd agree.

baltec1 wrote:
Not only will you have to contend with the biggest abusers of game mechanics in EVE but also everyone else in null, all the lowsec corps, WH powers and a good number of highsec to boot
Might be getting close to the truth here...I wonder what the percentage of cfc:anti-cfc works out as across the whole game? Probably less favourable than trying to compare your numbers to just one of the poor little guys.

baltec1 wrote:
Trollcepters dont get people fights, they only serve to sap the life from the game. Very few systems will even have 20 min timers let alone 40. For the love of god do not allow us such a tool because we will abuse it and make life for everyone else miserable.
Nope they don't get fights - but they won't capture occupied sov either and are a complete time sink for the person trying to use them.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager