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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#481 - 2015-03-09 18:44:50 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples

And this doesn't affect the CFC 1000x more than a group with only one structure to defend?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#482 - 2015-03-09 18:45:15 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
come on a corm sniping fleet :) and it will cure your doubts

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range

Combat probes will land it in engagement range every time. 100km is plenty when you land within 50-70km of your target.

combat probes show up on dscan

the interceptor gets to disengage before you even start aligning for warp in your slow ass destroyers
Killian Cormac
Cormac Distribution
#483 - 2015-03-09 18:45:50 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples


Which spawn their own command nodes two days later, which is then undone in 30 minutes by 5 people.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#484 - 2015-03-09 18:46:28 UTC
When thinking about "evasion fits" and how to counter them, consider how an attacker will use an evasion fit.
1) Warp on grid at 100 km
2) Activate Entosis link, while orbiting you maximum range (may be limited by targeting).
3) D-scan for incoming
4) When someone is incoming, burn off.
5) Keep going until your link finishes its cycle, then warp to the next target. As that is no more than 120 seconds, you only need stay out of range for that time. Unless the defenders have a ship that is 1000 m/sec faster than you, you will get away. If they do have such a ship, then copy it next time.

CCP: Another thing to consider is the Entosis link range. What is the thinking behind 200 km? Maybe the ranges should be 10k for T1, and 20k for T2. Get those interceptors somewhere where they can be sniped before they burn out of range.

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Frozen fanfiction
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#485 - 2015-03-09 18:47:20 UTC
Kaylee Fonza wrote:
Querns wrote:
Capqu wrote:
if the grid is contested inteceptors are actually useless guys, their lockrange is so pathetic that one or two damps means there is no way they can keep their entosis link active

i think the main issue around interceptors is their ability to move 100% safely behind camps and entosis uncontested systems which should be protected by camped choke points

This is the core of the issue. As a sov haver of any size, I should be able to use the geography of my holdings in its defense. Being able to deny entry to my holdings should pay dividends in the security of my empire. Interceptors ignore all geography because, while traveling, they cannot be caught.

Interceptors also have superlative disengagement ability, which converts the entire process of defending sov from defeating a gang of rabble-rousers to keepign a large group of counter-interceptors in a central location during your primetime, then dispatching them as blips pop up on the Sov Radar of choice. No actual PvP occurs in this scenario, it's just two interceptors weakly applying the sov laser to the same target in an attempt to bore each other into submission.

Alternatively, I guess you could park a single supercap on every possible defensive target during your primetime. Thanks to fatigue, this is more viable than you'd think.



Unless one of the interceptor brings damps, and wins the sov laser fight


Interceptor needs its mids for sebos to be able lock at "troll" ranges.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Captain H4rlock
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#486 - 2015-03-09 18:47:24 UTC
Iski Zuki DaSen wrote:
E-Link can be fitted in :

Ceptors frigates destroyers = NO
Cruisers = Maybe
Battlecruisers = YES YES HELL YES ( brings a reason for peeps to actually use them once again )
Batleships =yes
Carriers= maybe
Supers= NO NO NO HELL NO


+1
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#487 - 2015-03-09 18:49:20 UTC
Killian Cormac wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples


Which spawn their own command nodes two days later, which is then undone in 30 minutes by 5 people.

so one uncatchable attacker should require five or more people to counter then eh
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#488 - 2015-03-09 18:49:26 UTC
Takeshi Kumamato wrote:
A lightweight method to discourage trollceptors:

When the entosis link is active, prevent propulsion mods from cycling.
The entosis link can be turned off at any time.
The entosis link has a one minute reactivation timer.

This makes it very frustrating to try to use the link unless you've gained control of the field, as you need to turn off the link every time you need to run away, get reps, or warp off. But every time the link turns off, you have to wait a minute before trying again. While this won't completely discourage the use of trollceptors, it doesn't interfere as much as other suggestions with the intended use of the links.
Great idea.

Potential Modification: Entosis link can be only be turned off at end of cycle - like a cyno except entosis link does not show up in local. Then there is a decent amount of risk involved, but no risk where nobody is in system. Entosis link module cycles in:
30 sec - somebody shows up in local, entosis dude has decent chance of bailing.
1 min - Somebody in system can pop him if the defender is on the ball.
2 min - Somebody within one jump can pop him if the defender is on the ball.
4 min - Somebody within 3 jumps can pop him.
etc...
Acuma
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#489 - 2015-03-09 18:50:22 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Killian Cormac wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples


Which spawn their own command nodes two days later, which is then undone in 30 minutes by 5 people.

so one uncatchable attacker should require five or more people to counter then eh


Or one ship to undock and warp to you so you get scared and run away when you see it 14au's away on d-scan......
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#490 - 2015-03-09 18:50:23 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Promiscuous Female wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:

Holy **** you're bad. I could link you a ship that owns interceptors up to 150km, and you'll still moan like a stuck pig.

And you know what? I'm gonna do just that. Behold the mighty eagle:

Eagle: http://imgur.com/KYZDvc5
Eagle vs. MWD Stiletto: http://imgur.com/v537Sv8
185 DPS at 120km
60 DPS at 150km.
Uses thorium if you're wondering (don't be bad by using spike).

If, by some miracle, the inty locks at 150km, it's fit is so bad that those 60dps will massacre it.

Please. Stop. Being. Bad.

ah yes the interceptor that is polite enough to sit inside the eagle's optimal long enough to arrive from 14AU away, decelerate from warp, lock, and fire on it

Are you really that bad?
Read the graph again.
http://imgur.com/v537Sv8
With thorium loaded, against a stiletto moving at speed it does
50 dps at 50km
185 dps at 120km
60 dps at 150km

THIS KILLS YOUR 150 KM LOCKING INTERCEPTOR IN AN ENVELOPE FROM 50KM to 150km. WHILE IT'S MOVING. AT 5KM/S.
MASSADEATH
MASS A DEATH
Scumlords
#491 - 2015-03-09 18:51:05 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
MASSADEATH wrote:
come on a corm sniping fleet :) and it will cure your doubts

ah yes the cormorant with its staggering 80-100km range

Combat probes will land it in engagement range every time. 100km is plenty when you land within 50-70km of your target.

combat probes show up on dscan

the interceptor gets to disengage before you even start aligning for warp in your slow ass destroyers




DO YOU GUYS EVEN PVP?

are you telling me you are incapable of killing ceptors?

you just alpha them off the grid.... lock target.... POP..... ceptor gone....

heck you even know the max range of where they have to be around a given structure...
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#492 - 2015-03-09 18:51:06 UTC
Carniflex wrote:
Ann Markson wrote:
While the Trolleceptor thing itself is a useless rage it adresses another issue. Currently the majority of Sov Null systems is worth ****.
Alliances hold entire regions to have access to 10% of their systems in which people actually can rat at isk/h rates significantly above highsec levels.

People are mad because noone wants to life or be in the -0.1 or -0.2 systems because it adds a lot of effort while not giving access to anything worth much more in terms of income abilitiy.
So People hold large chunks of sov to use a very few parts of it now rage because the parts they dont use would be reinforced constantly, but are effectively not worth using at all, thus have no place in occupancy based Sov.

If CCP wants occupancy based Sov to work the truesecs either need a rework, or the anomaly system does in a way that makes the majority of Sov systems worth holding, not the minority of them.

One could argue that it doesnt has any place here, but with Sov being a very complex topic we need to adress each part of it simultaneously.



Simple, if the particular system is not worth holding it for the current holder, he does not use it or live in it he should just let it go. Let some poor newbie entity try to set up in there and RF it daily just for lols.

Sov has in the past been battle of will, before the supercap blobs turned dials to 11. And it seems it will be so again.


The bottom line is that if CCP is going to make it much easier for sov to be reinforced and for sov upgrade structures to be destroyed then it also needs to significantly buff the value of low end nullsec systems to make them worth the hassle or massively nerf hisec income so that the unbuffed sov null systems become more attractive/worthwhile to occupy.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#493 - 2015-03-09 18:51:09 UTC
Just prevent Entosis Links from being fitted on frigates and cruisers or else I may overdose with nullbears tears...

The Tears Must Flow
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#494 - 2015-03-09 18:51:25 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.

this is where you've lost the thread

at no point is goonswarm federation interested in good fights

defense of our empire comes first, subjugation of those who would even think of attacking our empire comes second, subjugation of everyone else comes third

fights occasionally occur in the process of completing these two objectives but are completely tangential to our desires and goals

Big smileBig smileBig smile
That was pretty slick. Excellent avoidance of every relevant point in the post.

Nice to know some things never change. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#495 - 2015-03-09 18:51:26 UTC
Acuma wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Killian Cormac wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples


Which spawn their own command nodes two days later, which is then undone in 30 minutes by 5 people.

so one uncatchable attacker should require five or more people to counter then eh


Or one ship to undock and warp to you so you get scared and run away when you see it 14au's away on d-scan......

and then proceed to another capture object and start over
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#496 - 2015-03-09 18:52:02 UTC
DeadDuck wrote:
Harkin Issier wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
Trollceptors fundamentally don't fit the "effective control of the grid" argument. The things that can hit an orbiting snaked-out interceptor are few and far between and require very specific fits to counter, allowing a trollceptor to easily keep a link alive without effective control of the grid. This also forces specific metas, in opposition to the view that they should not affect the meta - you have to be able to blap interceptors in your fleet composition.

They also simply allow you to evade committing anything to a fight, and if you're attacking sov at the very least you should be risking a single ship.


Kiting trollceptors need LOTS of room to burn around in, putting them in the 100+km range. All you need to do to counter them is fit sensor damps. Congrats, your interceptor is now useless. "Step into my fleet's optimal range", said the Lachesis to the Crow.


Hey what about if the troll ceptor comes with 3 or 4 normal ceptors along? What you think will happen to the maulus or whatever ? It's the question of agility also... a ceptor can be in 1 system and 5 minutes after can be at 10 jumps out doing the same thing again... to the same alliance...


So its a problem that 1 ships cant take on 5 ships? By the same token what prevents me from "sov trolling" in falcon with covert cyno and bomber wing in jump range?

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#497 - 2015-03-09 18:52:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
However, if you continue to pose your arguments as :

We want good fights.

this is where you've lost the thread

at no point is goonswarm federation interested in good fights

defense of our empire comes first, subjugation of those who would even think of attacking our empire comes second, subjugation of everyone else comes third

fights occasionally occur in the process of completing these two objectives but are completely tangential to our desires and goals

Big smileBig smileBig smile
That was pretty slick. Excellent avoidance of every relevant point in the post.

Nice to know some things never change. Blink

when i can topple the entire post by refuting its primary fulcrum with a minimum of effort i will usually choose that option
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#498 - 2015-03-09 18:52:17 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Combat probes will land it in engagement range every time. 100km is plenty when you land within 50-70km of your target.

combat probes show up on dscan

the interceptor gets to disengage before you even start aligning for warp in your slow ass destroyers

You're stuck for 2 minutes with the module active. More than enough time to land on the structure, probe you, warp to you from within 250km, and kill you.

Trollceptors are not invulnerable, and are irrelevant to any entity that is willing to defend their space. They will never cap / RF a single node from anyone who doesn't totally suck. Period.

The fact that you're trying to get them nerfed so hard so fast has a lot more to do with how much Gewns have been bawling about Interceptor bubble immunity since it was introduced to the game. It's simply more problematic for you all if it can impact sov as well.

I notice that noone is whining about cloaking nullified T3s with even longer lock ranges, more DPS, more EHP, and self rep capability can use these same modules.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#499 - 2015-03-09 18:53:05 UTC
Carniflex wrote:

So its a problem that 1 ships cant take on 5 ships? By the same token what prevents me from "sov trolling" in falcon with covert cyno and bomber wing in jump range?

interdictor bubbles
Killian Cormac
Cormac Distribution
#500 - 2015-03-09 18:53:58 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Killian Cormac wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
you don't capture command nodes, you go to other systems and generate more initial RF timers while the defenders are busy whacking pimples


Which spawn their own command nodes two days later, which is then undone in 30 minutes by 5 people.

so one uncatchable attacker should require five or more people to counter then eh


Apples/oranges. A trollceptor isn't an 'attacker'.