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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Serene Repose
#1681 - 2015-03-04 19:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Serene Repose
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
The "Protection" of tomorrow you speak of is todays rental agreement.

The new system will be great. Small groups can claim and hold sov. We have multiboxing alt corps holding down wormholes .. now some of those and more can move to holding their own piece of null. The only people who don't win are big coalitions .. and you have more than the means and resources to survive.


what makes you think i won't squash you for funsies

we spent three months squashing anyone who dared mine gallente ice in highsec, what makes you think that every *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. who raises a flag isn't going to look like a nail to swing my massive hammer at


More fun for you then, so what exactly are you crying about?




The fact that the idea is dumb and will be a waste of time? Just because someone benefits from a situation doesn't mean that can't see what's wrong with it.

I can see you've given this a lot of thought. I'm sure come June a certain element will be crying like babies. I'll wager other players won't be. I'm so honored to be blessed with your deep and considered insight, however. Far be it from you to just sit in the cheap seats and hurl ridicule, right? Shocked

We must accommodate the idiocracy.

Siggy Afuklrang
Mungo's Incorperated
#1682 - 2015-03-04 19:13:47 UTC
Well I thought this looked an awesome set of changes.

I'm loving the response, I have to wonder if all this sov holding stuff is so worthless then anybody wana pass me their sov. Seeing as there's no point in it......

It seems to me that lots of people want the world handed to them on a silver platter
Geddon Kabaal
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#1683 - 2015-03-04 19:14:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Geddon Kabaal
Please CCP make sure to avoid the TrollCeptor

I agree something stupid like this will happen:

Canaris:

Reactor Control Unit II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Entosis link thing


Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router II
Small Ancillary Current Router I


or


Trolletto


Capacitor Power Relay II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

1MN Microwarpdrive II
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II (120km locking Range)

Entosis link Thing 250km

Small Auxillary Thruster II
Snall Hyperspatial Velocity Optimizer II
Sigras
Conglomo
#1684 - 2015-03-04 19:14:43 UTC
My question is what happens if I ninja a new TCU into place after I lose the first one? If i'm faster on the draw than anyone else do i get my system back?
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1685 - 2015-03-04 19:14:54 UTC
Agent Known wrote:
People rent because they don't have a supercap fleet to grind down structures or defend themselves when they get welped. The current sov mechanics vastly favors alliances with large capital fleets who are able to grind structures very quickly.

There's probably also a lot of people who rent, not because they don't have supercaps etc, but because they don't want to put in the effort to take space in the first place, or they just buy into the hype about someone being "super duper scary don't fight them they'll eat your firstborn".
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1686 - 2015-03-04 19:15:27 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Yeah, that's right instead you will be paying protection ISk or you will have your SOV flipped every 2nd day and no way to fight back because NC. is still gone be stronger than your 10 man corp.


Sure, NC's 500 man T3 fleet will be stronger than the 100 man alliance trying to claim sov in a backwater. But to DEFEND, all they have to do is keep one defensive T1 E-link alive on their structures long enough to make it annoying for you. Which should be easy for them if they are living there. Can you eventually blow them up and flip sov? Sure. Of course, only one at a time; the other 50 renters were left alone that day. And you're going to keep doing this everyday, while Brave starts mounting a REAL war against your home systems because your standing supercap fleet is no longer any kind of deterrent to them?

I'm not trying to claim that somehow this change enables a 10-man alliance to suddenly hold sov in a place NC. actually wants to own. It IS, however, going to make it far easier for anyone and everyone to start real sov conflict/pressure with absolutely no worries over supercap fleet sizes. If this change drives conflict like it is intended to, you will frankly be too busy fighting real opponents to actually care about going back to flip a renter system that you don't actually want to own anyway. Which will be fine because you won't need the renter income to fight those real wars anyway, since you no longer need to be in a supercap race with your opponents and can actually fight sov wars in affordable ships that are fun to fly instead.

Supercaps will be part of endgame fleet battles required to totally nuke an opponent out of their final/home system. They WON'T be part of daily sov harassment because no structure grind means no structure grind fleets means far fewer fights escalating into cap battles because far MORE sov flipping hotpoints will spring up simultaneously across a warfront.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1687 - 2015-03-04 19:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Geddon Kabaal wrote:
Please CCP make sure to avoid the TrollCeptor

http://i.imgur.com/3iy4TtX.jpg

countered

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1688 - 2015-03-04 19:16:55 UTC
Agent Known wrote:


People rent because they don't have a supercap fleet to grind down structures or defend themselves when they get welped. The current sov mechanics vastly favors alliances with large capital fleets who are able to grind structures very quickly.


People rent because they are renters. Before renting they would have been "pets".

The applicable old folsk saying that applies here is "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink".
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1689 - 2015-03-04 19:17:01 UTC
Agent Known wrote:
People rent because they don't have a supercap fleet to grind down structures or defend themselves when they get welped. The current sov mechanics vastly favors alliances with large capital fleets who are able to grind structures very quickly.

You dont need supercap ~fleet~. You only need 1 mothership.
You cannot ~welp~ it unless you're brain dead.
Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1690 - 2015-03-04 19:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kah'Les
Lena Lazair wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Yeah, that's right instead you will be paying protection ISk or you will have your SOV flipped every 2nd day and no way to fight back because NC. is still gone be stronger than your 10 man corp.


Sure, NC's 500 man T3 fleet will be stronger than the 100 man alliance trying to claim sov in a backwater. But to DEFEND, all they have to do is keep one defensive T1 E-link alive on their structures long enough to make it annoying for you. Which should be easy for them if they are living there. Can you eventually blow them up and flip sov? Sure. Of course, only one at a time; the other 50 renters were left alone that day. And you're going to keep doing this everyday, while Brave starts mounting a REAL war against your home systems because your standing supercap fleet is no longer any kind of deterrent to them?

I'm not trying to claim that somehow this change enables a 10-man alliance to suddenly hold sov in a place NC. actually wants to own. It IS, however, going to make it far easier for anyone and everyone to start real sov conflict/pressure with absolutely no worries over supercap fleet sizes. If this change drives conflict like it is intended to, you will frankly be too busy fighting real opponents to actually care about going back to flip a renter system that you don't actually want to own anyway. Which will be fine because you won't need the renter income to fight those real wars anyway, since you no longer need to be in a supercap race with your opponents and can actually fight sov wars in affordable ships that are fun to fly instead.

Supercaps will be part of endgame fleet battles required to totally nuke an opponent out of their final/home system. They WON'T be part of daily sov harassment because no structure grind means no structure grind fleets means far fewer fights escalating into cap battles because far MORE sov flipping hotpoints will spring up simultaneously across a warfront.


NC. don't own SOV so your whole argument is invalied. All sov is rented out they have some systems just so we got beacons or a importent JB.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1691 - 2015-03-04 19:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Serene Repose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
The "Protection" of tomorrow you speak of is todays rental agreement.

The new system will be great. Small groups can claim and hold sov. We have multiboxing alt corps holding down wormholes .. now some of those and more can move to holding their own piece of null. The only people who don't win are big coalitions .. and you have more than the means and resources to survive.


what makes you think i won't squash you for funsies

we spent three months squashing anyone who dared mine gallente ice in highsec, what makes you think that every *Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. who raises a flag isn't going to look like a nail to swing my massive hammer at


More fun for you then, so what exactly are you crying about?




The fact that the idea is dumb and will be a waste of time? Just because someone benefits from a situation doesn't mean that can't see what's wrong with it.

I can see you've given this a lot of thought. I'm sure come June a certain element will be crying like babies. I'll wager other players won't be. I'm so honored to be blessed with your deep and considered insight, however. Far be it from you to just sit in the cheap seats and hurl ridicule, right? Shocked


This seat isn't cheap, it costs $15 per month. You know how many starving children that could have fed?
Geddon Kabaal
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#1692 - 2015-03-04 19:19:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Geddon Kabaal
Eli Apol wrote:


Yeah and u Need to risk like 800M for every 100M(if the Link does cost about 80M)Ceptor on Grid if Attackers have a fleet on Standby...

bettter bring your own ceptor and ist only 4 hours you Need to fly around your Sovstruc to safe it ...
Oberon Maulerant
Lithic Ventures Mining Company
Main Stage Strip Miners Excavation and Exploration
#1693 - 2015-03-04 19:21:33 UTC
I think that this may be a move to de-ice nullsec. Its going to force the bigger alliances to pare down ythe number of systems they control.


I think its gonna be sweet
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1694 - 2015-03-04 19:21:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Geddon Kabaal wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:


Yeah and u Need to risk like 800M for every 100M(if the Link does cost about 80M)Ceptor on Grid if Attackers have a fleet on Standby...

That fit can stand upto a fleet of 56 trollceptors = 5.6b in frigates vs a 1.2b BS

If it's just one or two then sure, you just drop an velator at zero and risk a 20mil module with a free hull.

edit: If they're flying 5.5b in flimsy hulls around then I'm sure you know how to fit some smartbombing Rokhs

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1695 - 2015-03-04 19:22:08 UTC
Guys- there are 39 likes on the OP, this must mean that this is a good change and everyone likes it, thanks to Phoebe, right?
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#1696 - 2015-03-04 19:24:41 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
I'm mostly happy with the underlying premise. There are a few things I think might need tweaking, but on the whole I'm positive to it. It's Jenn aSide who's saying there are deep, grievous flaws with it. I'm just wondering if these grievous flaws can be quantified, so I can see if I agree with Jenn or not.

Are you happy about the state of capital ships after the change?
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1697 - 2015-03-04 19:25:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
The sovereignty system Fozzie described in the dev blog he wrote is extremely poorly thought and half baked. CCP should just take it back to the drawing board and rethink. Meanwhile, perhaps they would also do well to review their assumptions about EVE players and how they behave and plan their actions in game. I'm going to write more about what I think are the peripheral causes as to why Fozzie and others are constantly failing later. For now, I'd like to elaborate on what I think is the central cause behind the dev team's shortsightedness.

It might be just that the faulty line of thought on the dev team's part is assuming that these poorly designed changes will result in people fighting more. I think they are expecting that they can really change bloc (and individual player) behavior solely through changing rules and mechanics and avoiding touching risk-reward balance.

They are wrong.

For instance, as Arrendis mentioned before, Encounter Surveillance Systems weren't adopted en masse by null residents. They were supposed to create fights. Because they did not see any serious adoption, not many fights were created through them.

Has any developer ever thought about why they weren't adopted by null residents?

More importantly, why is Fozzie's dev blog containing statistics makes him sound like an apologist, or worse, a distressed middle-level executive trying to defend his design through cooking up his numbers, when his plan obviously failed to achieve the intended objectives? If you look at the number carefully, Fozzie is only able to say 'hurray, my plan is doing okay and null sec pvp-related player deaths increased', because Pandemic Legion got bored and decided to farm HERO coalition. I especially laughed out loud and ended up spilling the Turkish coffee I've been sipping when I saw that Deklein region, the place I live in and the revered Goon homeland, has seen PvP related losses decrease by 20% since Phoebe and Jump Fatigue hit. Fozzie isn't just doing a terrible job at re-imagining sovereignty, he is also doing a terrible job at covering his own back so that he and his plan can look good to his immediate superiors who no doubt track his so called progress.

I have said this before when Greyscale announced plans for Phoebe before and I'll say it again;

No amount of change and skewing of sandbox mechanics towards a theme park setting will result in players fighting and causing destruction just for the sake of doing so. People also will not fight and create destruction just so that Fozzie and CCP are appeased and are able to recite statistics without good analysis.

Holding space in null is currently is not worth much for all the effort and resources it takes. Even with these changes, it will still not be worth it.

EVE players will always collaborate, cooperate to minimize risks, and the instances of fights that they do not want to take.

The structures that make up the large entities cannot and will not be dismantled through the change of game play mechanics. You cannot change human behavior and tendency to socialize, cooperate and collude to further mutual goals through introducing ~bright ideas~ like this.

We need developers that are ruthlessly pragmatic and in possesion of first-hand knowledge and experience of life in nullsec to fix nullsec, not developers moonlighting as bright idea fairies that don't know the game and the mechanics they are working on. It's the second type of developers who always end up with introducing Hail Mary plans that are destined to fail like this one.
Geddon Kabaal
Space Colony
Synergy of Steel
#1698 - 2015-03-04 19:26:12 UTC
you might TANK 56 Ceptors, but as I understand u can fit 1 of these new Links and you Need 2 Ceptors to take sov over 1 whatevertanky ship, So will Need to bring like 50 Ships with 50 Links if the Attacker brings 50 Links to attack. Or did I missunderstand anything?
DeadDuck
Trust Doesn't Rust
Goonswarm Federation
#1699 - 2015-03-04 19:26:25 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Guys- there are 39 likes on the OP, this must mean that this is a good change and everyone likes it, thanks to Phoebe, right?


41 actually and counting.. the dev blog is so dense that you really need time to digest him. I just did, I was the 41st one to put a thumbs up. I will not be the last one. Roll
Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1700 - 2015-03-04 19:27:50 UTC
Hm...I'm going to have to post something longer later. My initial reaction...I don't understand the "Command Node" thing. Like, in the logical "universe of Eve", how does this make any sense? If you try to hack a computer in real life, do you then have to travel through several random databases that aren't connected to the initial one? If you were to try and hack Google, do you then have to go find a part of their network key on Sony's database and a part on Microsofts and collect them all? Can someone else go and find a key fragment on the city of New York's website to somehow block your progress?

Basically - this makes zero SENSE.

It also is weird when you attack a system but that Alliance doesn't have any of the other systems in that Constellation.

Just a thought, but why don't you make "fiefdoms"? Make it where you can only upgrade so much in a system, then you have to apply additional upgrades from neighboring systems, and then command nodes or whatever spawn in all systems "linked" to the one where the attack is? So I put an IHUBS in system X, but to boost Insustry to 4 and Military to 5, I have to have an extra structure in W that supports mining and Y and Z to allow the level 5.

Likewise, any more than 1 or 2 station service add-ons have to be placed in adjacent systems.

This way, there's a reason to hold and defend areas of space, and there isn officials to the Constrllation model. But smaller Alliances would hold mid-level (3?) systems.

Basically, like I said, fiefdoms - where you have the manor/keep and then the surrounding countryside supporting it.

At leas then the Command Node but would make...some vague logical sense?

.

But yeah, more later...