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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Gericht
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1601 - 2015-03-04 17:39:47 UTC
My two cents on this. I'd make the entosis link incompatible with afterburners, mjd's and mwd's which would prevent the concept of the trollceptor. And in the event of a tie on the combat for a station or ihub I would automatically make the defenders win to allow a bit of home field advantage.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1602 - 2015-03-04 17:40:58 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
The "Protection" of tomorrow you speak of is todays rental agreement.

The new system will be great. Small groups can claim and hold sov. We have multiboxing alt corps holding down wormholes .. now some of those and more can move to holding their own piece of null. The only people who don't win are big coalitions .. and you have more than the means and resources to survive.



Meh. Large scale stability and stable logistic chains, along with the ability to swamp small enemies with the people they don't need for immediate self defense means that big coalitions are going to come out of this even better than the little guys.

When the bar is lowered to near 0 for taking system, the more force you can apply, the more space you can steamroll in a smaller amount of time.


And the higher the bar is raised, the more likely only the big blocs are going to have the ability to overcome it.

Really, there's a reason this kind of equilibrium state has been a recurring theme in history. No problem has ever existed where being able to devote more brainpower to finding a solution, and more manpower to executing that solution, hasn't produced a more effective solution. Doesn't happen.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1603 - 2015-03-04 17:43:19 UTC
Gericht wrote:
My two cents on this. I'd make the entosis link incompatible with afterburners, mjd's and mwd's which would prevent the concept of the trollceptor. And in the event of a tie on the combat for a station or ihub I would automatically make the defenders win to allow a bit of home field advantage.



Why? 100m loot pinyatas are delicious.

These things will die in fires.

No-one in their right mind will do this if people show up to defend. If they don't...then they've no right to have it in the first instance.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1604 - 2015-03-04 17:44:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Eli Apol wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The fact that the idea is dumb and will be a waste of time? Just because someone benefits from a situation doesn't mean that can't see what's wrong with it.

So small gangs are gonna be having fun, big alliances are gonna be having fun waving around their giant 'hammers' and yet this is a dumb waste of time?

I want them to take away our fun and make us sit in stations ship spinning everyday instead of adding content :(


This is what I mean by "unrealistically optimistic". I've learned that nothing you say dissuades people like that, because they are used to believing what they want. Not even evidence works.

I had this same conversation 2 dozen times before Dominion and I ain't doing it again lol.
Starrakatt
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#1605 - 2015-03-04 17:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Starrakatt
Princess Cherista wrote:
Summer 2015: our inties and nullified no-commit fits will blot out the sun What?

And thus it begins.

As a (Hisec) merc, most, if not all, Nulsec entities always shrugged and sported dismissive comments on how mercs were not affecting them, only killing the Hisec bads/random nul ratters, depending where the mercs were operating from.

With the Entosis Ceptor, being cheap ships and with minimal risks, even scrub Hisec mercs can go down in nul and 'affect', read **** them off no end (the dream of any merc's client), said entities by trolling their Sov timers, yes.

While they can do squat to us, in our Hisec safety.

Thank you CCP, THANK YOU.

Edit: Now Gevlon Goblin can spend ISK on something useful to destroy Goonswarm. Shocked

Join Celtic Anarchy!

Sneaky bastard.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1606 - 2015-03-04 17:45:22 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
The "Protection" of tomorrow you speak of is todays rental agreement.

The new system will be great. Small groups can claim and hold sov. We have multiboxing alt corps holding down wormholes .. now some of those and more can move to holding their own piece of null. The only people who don't win are big coalitions .. and you have more than the means and resources to survive.


what makes you think i won't squash you for funsies

we spent three months squashing anyone who dared mine gallente ice in highsec, what makes you think that every shitlord who raises a flag isn't going to look like a nail to swing my massive hammer at


More fun for you then, so what exactly are you crying about?




The fact that the idea is dumb and will be a waste of time? Just because someone benefits from a situation doesn't mean that can't see what's wrong with it.


He doesn't benefit from the situation. For all his pathetic "tough guy" act. He's bricking it because his alliance didn't get exactly what they wanted from this sov revamp.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1607 - 2015-03-04 17:46:35 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
And if you want to do this it's nothing stoping you already you can set up POS in any system you want don't need SOV and I know small gangs that shut down systems like this already, The fact that you already not doing it show how much you are comidet to this idea already. It's just a fantasie, if this was your goal you would have already done it.


There is an overwhelming perception that it can't be done for newer players because the space LOOKS like it is owned by someone else. Also, you seriously underestimate the importance of having your own name on the map. You CAN live incognito in someone else's **** null, but you don't get to put your name on the map, so why not just go live in a WH instead?

I pretty much DO do this, only we do it in a WH. And once the change goes live, we might move to a corner of null instead, who knows? We don't do it now because it doesn't feel like "home" when someone else's name is on the map, but having the convenience of perfect local intel is sure appealing. We already make crap ISK compared to what high sec incursions bring, and that's with the need to fund T3 fleets. Crap null might be even less ISK efficient, but with perfect intel and these sov changes, we would only need to fund intys/AF's and HAC's on that lower income anyway in order to still have fun with anyone passing through. And it doesn't preclude the ability to scan down holes still.

Sure, the POS's will be more vulnerable since they can be hotdropped by caps, but the risk of that has become considerably lower with all the other changes. It's not like a POS in a WH is 100% safe either; if someone wants to evict you, they will.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#1608 - 2015-03-04 17:46:48 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
KC Kamikaze wrote:
The "Protection" of tomorrow you speak of is todays rental agreement.

The new system will be great. Small groups can claim and hold sov. We have multiboxing alt corps holding down wormholes .. now some of those and more can move to holding their own piece of null. The only people who don't win are big coalitions .. and you have more than the means and resources to survive.


what makes you think i won't squash you for funsies

we spent three months squashing anyone who dared mine gallente ice in highsec, what makes you think that every shitlord who raises a flag isn't going to look like a nail to swing my massive hammer at


Well that was hardly difficult was it, all the mining ships of that period had the tank of a wet paper bag, I would like to see you try it now on Skiffs and Procurer fleets, I doubt you will have the same level of success because it is no longer like taking candy from babies...

Yes of course you are going to wield that hammer, but the fun part is that smaller entities will go light, TCU next to a deathstar and some even working together to deal with your hammer, it will be fun won't it?



They don't want fun. They want ISK.

I do agree though that nullsec should have income buffs, but not in the form of more moon goo.

It would be epic from a lore point of view if during the Freeport time span lots of different pirate factions start showing up with heavy hitting ships. Not to interfere with the "tug of war", just a raised pirate presence so that the system may even attract freebooters looking for chances at fat loot. This would add an additional entity to these SOV struggles: defenders, invaders, and now all of a sudden all these random neutrals.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1609 - 2015-03-04 17:47:24 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:


He doesn't benefit from the situation. For all his pathetic "tough guy" act. He's bricking it because his alliance didn't get exactly what they wanted from this sov revamp.


That's just useless guilt by association. I feel the same way he does and I'm not a Goon. You're letting your goon prejudice blind you. I've been shooting at goons for 7 years and i don't even feel that way about them.
Urandas
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1610 - 2015-03-04 17:47:57 UTC
In general I like the feeling of being forced to hold a grid while you capture an objective. But unfortunately the 'prime time' just seems to lucrative and would discourage people of other TZ's. As regards to the troll ceptor It would be an issue because sov holders like to respond to timers because a fast form up to deal with someone reinforcing a tower is too difficult and generally the aggressors already have the number advantage. Supers and dreads have vertually no use in this system but triage carriers would be great for helping the holding grid. Battleships need more love (they do, screw your statistics, I want to fly a baltec again!) (or nerf bombs :) ). So I would give the link thingy heavier fitting requirements or force it to be used on cruiser and larger ships so they could be catched unlike the trollceptor. I think you could catch an nully/cloaky/loki with a ceptor if it started a cycle. but ceptors them selves are too annoying to catch. Also I think the spread out of targets between a constellation needs some fine tuning personally. But again this is all subject to change. :)
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1611 - 2015-03-04 17:48:06 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Princess Cherista wrote:
Summer 2015: our inties and nullified no-commit fits will blot out the sun What?

And thus it begins.

As a (Hisec) merc, most, if not all, Nulsec entities always shrugged and sported dismissive comments on how mercs were not affecting them, only killing the Hisec bads/random nul ratters, depending where the mercs were operating from.

With the Entosis Ceptor, being cheap ships and with minimal risks, even scrub Hisec mercs can go down in nul and 'affect', read **** them off no end (the dream of any merc's client), said entities by trolling their Sov timers, yes.

While they can do squat to us, in our Hisec safety.

Thank you CCP, THANK YOU.


Mercs still won't have much of an effect, really. It'll mostly be standing defense fleets, which already exist in many places, they just don't get a lot of press.
Proton Stars
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1612 - 2015-03-04 17:48:42 UTC
this thread seems to have lost trac, so let me help put it back on the rails...


THESE CHANGES ARE TERRIBLE.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1613 - 2015-03-04 17:49:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Arrendis wrote:
Starrakatt wrote:
Princess Cherista wrote:
Summer 2015: our inties and nullified no-commit fits will blot out the sun What?

And thus it begins.

As a (Hisec) merc, most, if not all, Nulsec entities always shrugged and sported dismissive comments on how mercs were not affecting them, only killing the Hisec bads/random nul ratters, depending where the mercs were operating from.

With the Entosis Ceptor, being cheap ships and with minimal risks, even scrub Hisec mercs can go down in nul and 'affect', read **** them off no end (the dream of any merc's client), said entities by trolling their Sov timers, yes.

While they can do squat to us, in our Hisec safety.

Thank you CCP, THANK YOU.


Mercs still won't have much of an effect, really. It'll mostly be standing defense fleets, which already exist in many places, they just don't get a lot of press.

And you now needs a lot more of those standing defence fleets spread out to cover your whole space meaning they'll individually be weaker...so does that roaming solo inty have a cyno and are there ships waiting to jump?

You feel lucky punk? Well do you?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1614 - 2015-03-04 17:50:43 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Princess Cherista wrote:
Summer 2015: our inties and nullified no-commit fits will blot out the sun What?

And thus it begins.

As a (Hisec) merc, most, if not all, Nulsec entities always shrugged and sported dismissive comments on how mercs were not affecting them, only killing the Hisec bads/random nul ratters, depending where the mercs were operating from.

With the Entosis Ceptor, being cheap ships and with minimal risks, even scrub Hisec mercs can go down in nul and 'affect', read **** them off no end (the dream of any merc's client), said entities by trolling their Sov timers, yes.

While they can do squat to us, in our Hisec safety.

Thank you CCP, THANK YOU.

Edit: Now Gevlon Goblin can spend ISK on something useful to destroy Goonswarm. Shocked


And you guys are on my list of mercs to use.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Arrendis
TK Corp
#1615 - 2015-03-04 17:51:13 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
You feel lucky punk? Well do you?


Yup! I do!
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1616 - 2015-03-04 17:51:47 UTC
re·crim·i·na·tion
rəˌkriməˈnāSH(ə)n/

noun

an accusation in response to one from someone else.
"there are no tears, no recriminations"
synonyms: accusation(s), counteraccusation(s), countercharge(s), counterattack(s), retaliation(s)
"this is not a time for recrimination, but a time to come together in solidarity"

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1617 - 2015-03-04 17:52:04 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:


He doesn't benefit from the situation. For all his pathetic "tough guy" act. He's bricking it because his alliance didn't get exactly what they wanted from this sov revamp.


That's just useless guilt by association. I feel the same way he does and I'm not a Goon. You're letting your goon prejudice blind you. I've been shooting at goons for 7 years and i don't even feel that way about them.

we call it ad hominem if we like silly words and want to feel really fancy
Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1618 - 2015-03-04 17:52:45 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
And if you want to do this it's nothing stoping you already you can set up POS in any system you want don't need SOV and I know small gangs that shut down systems like this already, The fact that you already not doing it show how much you are comidet to this idea already. It's just a fantasie, if this was your goal you would have already done it.


There is an overwhelming perception that it can't be done for newer players because the space LOOKS like it is owned by someone else. Also, you seriously underestimate the importance of having your own name on the map. You CAN live incognito in someone else's **** null, but you don't get to put your name on the map, so why not just go live in a WH instead?

I pretty much DO do this, only we do it in a WH. And once the change goes live, we might move to a corner of null instead, who knows? We don't do it now because it doesn't feel like "home" when someone else's name is on the map, but having the convenience of perfect local intel is sure appealing. We already make crap ISK compared to what high sec incursions bring, and that's with the need to fund T3 fleets. Crap null might be even less ISK efficient, but with perfect intel and these sov changes, we would only need to fund intys/AF's and HAC's on that lower income anyway in order to still have fun with anyone passing through. And it doesn't preclude the ability to scan down holes still.

Sure, the POS's will be more vulnerable since they can be hotdropped by caps, but the risk of that has become considerably lower with all the other changes. It's not like a POS in a WH is 100% safe either; if someone wants to evict you, they will.


So it's not even the idea of having SOV that is tempting it's just to have you name on some page. CCP realy pulling people to large scall warfare for the right reasones.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1619 - 2015-03-04 17:54:55 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
You feel lucky punk? Well do you?


Yup! I do!

That's the spirit!

I don't care either way though - my point was that being forced to actually move out of a station and defend your structures in what might initially be a small scale fight - could well escalate and be fun for all ships and all sizes by the end :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
#1620 - 2015-03-04 17:55:30 UTC
THESE CHANGES ARE FANTASTIC