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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1501 - 2015-03-04 16:16:26 UTC
A multitude of the #'s are pretty wrong. By wrong I mean clearly disproportionate to how much effort defenders have to put in vs random reaver/inty gangs. This heavily favors larger alliances with squads and the ability to run 3-4 interceptor fleets at a time. It also heavily favors attackers griefing smaller alliances out of their stations through freeport/hellcamp/shutting down the entire region.

You have a scenario here where any big player can blow out a smaller alliance from an entire region inside the weekly cycle most people login. Do you really want to chain people to their space as part of an EVE job or do you want to spread it out a bit so they have time to mount an effective response? One of the good things about Dominion SOV is that it makes it take approximately a week to punt someone from a single area much less an entire region. This gives slightly more weekly/casual players the time to react and participate in their defense.

I would suggest making the freeport after a 2nd timer and in general making sure things aren't "dead" after a single reinforcement fight. This is going to make the meta just a big hammer against random parts of space and watching anyone small get obliterated as a past time.

All of the timers probably need at least a doubling as well. There is really no incentive to hold SOV for defense bonus's if we are talking about adding 20 minutes to a cap. The rest of the indexes need to matter. The fact that there is almost 0 Industry indexes ground up as a regional whole is pretty telling. Mining needing fixing is another whole blog though.

This does nothing to make those very "buffer zones" referred to in the blog any better. The reason they are buffer zones is not because they are some EHP buffer. I have no idea why Fozzie is referring to them that way but that is a dramatic misunderstanding of why they exist. They are total crap space with no real ability to be upgraded, generate income, or provide any real ability to support someone living there. They are the EVE equivalent of flyover states that you only transit to get somewhere good.

Finally, I would probably reduce the beacons to 3. Since this is tunable fairly easily, I would assume, you can start by breaking up the fights into 3 areas and seeing what impact that has. 5 is strongly biased against smaller players or those that don't want to have EVE by a job more than it already is.

Summary: This is so weighted to attacking and not the defenders I do not believe it will promote the real growth and sandcastle building you want. Instead it means anyone organized, big, and with manpower is going to grief the living crap outta smaller players. Reavers were already pretty laffo, but this is going to stick it into overdrive. Not the fight promoting overdrive either but the AFK cloaking until you have an opportunity to grief kind. You are making the same mistake you made with non-fight promoting siphons.






Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1502 - 2015-03-04 16:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Kah'Les wrote:
Some systems are only worth their moons meaning there are no players in them doing active things, hence most systems in null are empty.

Exactly, those ones are gonna get flipped every 2 days by bored roaming inty gangs, the actively used space can be defended.

Working as intended?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1503 - 2015-03-04 16:19:42 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Countered by even more ceptors, or just leaving that system and spamming the ones around it.

This will not turn out how you think it will lol.

So more ships wins in eve, wow that's a shocker.

Also an atron at 0 with a defensive link counters as many intys as you want to kite around outside of frigate gun range.

If you have empty, idle systems surrounding it during your primetime then they're not actively used space are they Roll


That sounds great on paper. lets bookmark this discussion and see how it really plays out? Big smile
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1504 - 2015-03-04 16:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Some systems are only worth their moons meaning there are no players in them doing active things, hence most systems in null are empty.

Exactly, those ones are gonna get flipped every 2 days by bored roaming inty gangs, the actively used space can be defended.

Working as intended?



Will the new modules be able to flip moon ownership at a later date in some way, without a pos bash?
Or are we going to smother them in syphon units? Or will alliances be PAYING renters to occupy those systems?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#1505 - 2015-03-04 16:20:57 UTC
Agent Known wrote:
Dradis Aulmais wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


That's what I love about your PFR guys. You actually have a pair, unlike Provi.



Why thank you!

One of our campers is a player called "deffently not a cyno alt" who is a know Titan alt

Sadly he never brings his toys to play. I though he would since we broke our dreads the other day.


It's funny how people complain about AFK cloakers in null where you have the wormhole bears who can't complain about those 5 cloaky proteii (proteus...es?) watching your every move.

Solution to AFK cloaking: remove local from sov null. Done! Pirate

This again. Wormholes =\= null, there are no cynos in WH, you can close off your neighboors in WH, you have more control over the geography in WH.

Thus, just removing local would be counterproductive

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#1506 - 2015-03-04 16:21:24 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Some systems are only worth their moons meaning there are no players in them doing active things, hence most systems in null are empty.

Exactly, those ones are gonna get flipped every 2 days by bored roaming inty gangs, the actively used space can be defended.

Working as intended?


Don't know if sacrasem or not? But unless there is a quicker way to get sov lvls I say no.
Benilopax
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1507 - 2015-03-04 16:21:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Benilopax
Are CCP and the CSM gonna wait until page 100 to acknowledge anything written here?

...

Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#1508 - 2015-03-04 16:21:55 UTC
I love this whole dev blog!

Looking forward to it! (And thank god for the 4 hour vuln window. Makes playing a game as a game a LOT easier).
Rammel Kas
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1509 - 2015-03-04 16:22:33 UTC
I'll agree with a fair amount of people who have voiced their concerns about the whole question around WHY we should own the space. Although a linear ISK kick back that some here suggested may not be a complete reward imo. ISK just leads to grinding once you have a system figured out. It has to enable you to have some new kind of fun regardless of the rewards too. Rewards... plural... because it's not always everybody's ideal world to get tied up on any one thing.

I realize of course that CCP Seagull's presentation a year ago hinted strongly that there's going to be new and exciting things like stargates involved after these particular changes. But perhaps we should have some glimpse of how this design ties into that vision to motivate the brains trusts of the alliances to evolve into and start moving.

The whole seeker > drifter build up was engaging enough to excite some speculation. Liked watching that develop.

I'm cautiously optimistic to see how this pans out.
Noriko Mai
#1510 - 2015-03-04 16:24:50 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Some systems are only worth their moons meaning there are no players in them doing active things, hence most systems in null are empty.

Exactly, those ones are gonna get flipped every 2 days by bored roaming inty gangs, the actively used space can be defended.

Working as intended?

And this increased flipping will then be the "proof" (maybe even with a fancy graph) that null is much more active and that sov war is going on all day long...

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1511 - 2015-03-04 16:25:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Not to mention, it rather blatantly breaks the whole concept of risk vs. reward. Ships that are contesting Sov, be they attackers or defenders, should be at risk. Trollceptors won't be.


Why should they axiomatically be at risk? The whole point of nullsec is that risk is provided by the players. If some tiny little alliance hops in a cruiser fleet and nibbles off some forsaken buffer system that nobody cares about from some giant renter empire, why should they be forced to confront some huge risk? That's the controlling alliance's job, and if the system is forsaken and empty then they're not doing their job.

This system is designed to make sure that unused systems are low-hanging fruit. Whether it pans out is another question, but all the people who want there to be some giant barrier to taking an empty backwater are failing to understand that that's one of the fundamental problems with the system we have now.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1512 - 2015-03-04 16:25:13 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
That sounds great on paper. lets bookmark this discussion and see how it really plays out? Big smile

Feel free to bookmark it if you can't think through the logical train of events - the fact that only one link matters from each side means that you can bring as many interceptors as you want and kite around aimlessly at a range where you are unable to apply any damage to someone who's sitting at zero on the structure with their own defensive link running just leads to a stalemate where one player is cancelling out a whole fleet of kiting ships.

Either they have to engage in a fight to clear the grid of defensive links or they move on to the next system and the one man defence succeeded = system works.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#1513 - 2015-03-04 16:25:13 UTC
Aryth wrote:
A multitude of the #'s are pretty wrong. By wrong I mean clearly disproportionate to how much effort defenders have to put in vs random reaver/inty gangs. This heavily favors larger alliances with squads and the ability to run 3-4 interceptor fleets at a time. It also heavily favors attackers griefing smaller alliances out of their stations through freeport/hellcamp/shutting down the entire region.

You have a scenario here where any big player can blow out a smaller alliance from an entire region inside the weekly cycle most people login. Do you really want to chain people to their space as part of an EVE job or do you want to spread it out a bit so they have time to mount an effective response? One of the good things about Dominion SOV is that it makes it take approximately a week to punt someone from a single area much less an entire region. This gives slightly more weekly/casual players the time to react and participate in their defense.

I would suggest making the freeport after a 2nd timer and in general making sure things aren't "dead" after a single reinforcement fight. This is going to make the meta just a big hammer against random parts of space and watching anyone small get obliterated as a past time.

All of the timers probably need at least a doubling as well. There is really no incentive to hold SOV for defense bonus's if we are talking about adding 20 minutes to a cap. The rest of the indexes need to matter. The fact that there is almost 0 Industry indexes ground up as a regional whole is pretty telling. Mining needing fixing is another whole blog though.

This does nothing to make those very "buffer zones" referred to in the blog any better. The reason they are buffer zones is not because they are some EHP buffer. I have no idea why Fozzie is referring to them that way but that is a dramatic misunderstanding of why they exist. They are total crap space with no real ability to be upgraded, generate income, or provide any real ability to support someone living there. They are the EVE equivalent of flyover states that you only transit to get somewhere good.

Finally, I would probably reduce the beacons to 3. Since this is tunable fairly easily, I would assume, you can start by breaking up the fights into 3 areas and seeing what impact that has. 5 is strongly biased against smaller players or those that don't want to have EVE by a job more than it already is.

Summary: This is so weighted to attacking and not the defenders I do not believe it will promote the real growth and sandcastle building you want. Instead it means anyone organized, big, and with manpower is going to grief the living crap outta smaller players. Reavers were already pretty laffo, but this is going to stick it into overdrive. Not the fight promoting overdrive either but the AFK cloaking until you have an opportunity to grief kind. You are making the same mistake you made with non-fight promoting siphons.



First of all without sov I can place POS's around the area no instant report, second thing is that I can make it a pain, put the TCU next to a death star, keep putting up a TCU, you have to be prepared to stick at it if you want space. Hell if one of the big entities came in and took down my system I would just let them get on with it, but when they left back at it. You have to be tenacious, this is the key thing even if you had will power with the current system, you get flattened, with this system being a royal pain in the butt means something.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#1514 - 2015-03-04 16:29:03 UTC
There seems to be a lot of people on this comments section and on the Mittani blogsite saying there is no reason/s to hold null-sec sovereignty. Apparently at the moment there are reasons to hold null-sec sovereignty as the likes of GSF etc still exist.

'Better' ores.
'Better' ice.
Titans and 'big fights'.
Good ratting opportunities and officer module drops.
Level five missions.
'Better' Incursions.
Moon mining - loads of revenue.
Opportunities to set up renting.
Working in 'blue' doughnut areas that are theoretically the safest places in New Eden.

All this stuff and much more that I can't think of is in null-sec and will still be in null-sec after any changes have been made. So what the **** is all this whinging about ? Seems to be some complaining about people possibly being able to disrupt or 'grief' null-sec sovereignty with no clear intention to hold onto the sovereignty they are attacking. **** happens my friends. It was all fine and dandy when null-sec communities took over high sec POCOs and tried to charge silly taxes. You have to take the rough with the smooth.
Princess Cherista
Doomheim
#1515 - 2015-03-04 16:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Cherista
Aryth wrote:
Summary: This is so weighted to attacking and not the defenders I do not believe it will promote the real growth and sandcastle building you want. Instead it means anyone organized, big, and with manpower is going to grief the living crap outta smaller players. Reavers were already pretty laffo, but this is going to stick it into overdrive. Not the fight promoting overdrive either but the AFK cloaking until you have an opportunity to grief kind. You are making the same mistake you made with non-fight promoting siphons


I dont think the horror has set in yet as to what this system means for small "elite" groups and ping-based alliances that relied on one BIG TIMER to bring supers or slowcats to. Cool
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1516 - 2015-03-04 16:32:40 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
ISD Ezwal wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Ezwal, literally the only CCP person who you know has read the thread in its entirety so far.
Yes, I have. Every single post.

My condolences to your sanity points.
I played Call of Cthulhu extensively in the days. My sanity points have been long gone....Cool

That said, I have removed a rule breaking post.

The Rules:
7. Discussion of real life religion and politics is prohibited.

Discussion of real life religion and politics is strictly prohibited on the EVE Online forums. Discussions of this nature often creates animosity between forum users due to real life political or military conflicts. CCP promotes the growth of a gaming community where equality is at the forefront. Nationalist, religious or political afiliations are not part of EVE Online, and should not be part of discussion on the EVE Online forums.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1517 - 2015-03-04 16:32:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
Kah'Les wrote:
Don't know if sacrasem or not? But unless there is a quicker way to get sov lvls I say no.

If it's "actively used space" you should be able to defend it within 10 minutes.

If it's a war front, perhaps you might, I dunno call me crazy, stage a defensive fleet nearby to prevent it being flipped straight after you capped it giving you time to raise the indices?

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1518 - 2015-03-04 16:34:36 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Some systems are only worth their moons meaning there are no players in them doing active things, hence most systems in null are empty.

Exactly, those ones are gonna get flipped every 2 days by bored roaming inty gangs, the actively used space can be defended.

Working as intended?



hes doe s not get the cocnept that this is the exaclty effect that CCP wants. That huge power blocs forego the unused space.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

M1k3y Koontz
Speaker for the Dead
Stay Feral
#1519 - 2015-03-04 16:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

Jenn aSide wrote:
-Really bad assumptions about what people want (even in a video game, people, especially null people, don't want 'fun' and 'lots of fights' they want power)

Some people might want power, some people just want to be in visceral brawls.

What "visceral brawls" have you ever had with or against Interceptors? Its tedious bug-hunting of cowards who do not want, and absolutely wont give you a fight. You form up, spend half an hour getting to them, and then they are gone in apuff of smoke. No fight, no kills, no point. It will be a miserable, soul-destroying existance.


If it takes half an hour to get to the target system, you live too far from the target system

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.

Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#1520 - 2015-03-04 16:36:30 UTC
I am thinking the Troll Laser needs to be restricted to a heavier ship such as a battle cruiser or above.

Love the tears here...great work CCP.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka