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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1441 - 2015-03-04 15:18:37 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Ezwal, literally the only CCP person who you know has read the thread in its entirety so far.
Yes, I have. Every single post.

My condolences to your sanity points.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1442 - 2015-03-04 15:19:54 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

If the defender has sufficient numbers LIVING LOCALLY then they'll have no problems whatsoever.

If however they're spread out across too many systems then yep they'll be playing cat and mouse across their whole territory for 4 hours every day. Sounds exhausting doesn't it :)


The problem comes from the fact that the income of most systems doesn't even justify more than a couple of people living there.

The nullsec income system has to change along with this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zverofaust
Ascetic Virtues
#1443 - 2015-03-04 15:20:08 UTC
Like the changes announced so far - except Prime Time. This is a ******* dumb idea on a variety of levels.

First, this effectively reverses any progress made via the other mechanics towards opening up low-intensity sov warfare to smaller groups and alliances who do not have 24-hour timezone coverage. It effectively makes small-scale wars between two small to mid-sized alliances operating in different TZs impractical if not impossible. Imagine a smaller Russian alliance trying to go to war with a small US alliance; it would be a nightmare of non-action. Or imagine a smaller single-TZ alliance trying to "pester" a larger alliance; while most of the other changes make this possible, forcing that smaller alliance to carry out attacks only during the large alliance's prime time is dumb.

Second, this will alienate a broad spectrum of players who have the misfortune of living in a non-prime TZ, during which the entirety of enemy space is suddenly and magically impervious to attack. At least under the Dominion sov system, all TZs could take part in attacking structures and creating timers. And while the intention of the defender might be to set all those timers to be in a different TZ, in reality the sheer magnitude of workload put on the shoulders of leadership and logistics people in setting those timers meant that inevitably mistakes would happen; some timers may not be set correctly, or other unforeseen events may occur that lead to unexpected clashes, the bread and butter of Eve. Under this new proposal, that simply will not occur. Full automation and limitation to a 4-hour window means entire TZs will be "left out" of any chance of doing anything other than bashing POS.

In short, 4-hour prime time is going to prevent opposing groups from different TZs, particularly among the smaller to mid-sized alliances, from any meaningful conflict with other groups. Large alliances with overwhelming activity in a particular TZ will simply become nigh-impervious to attacks by smaller groups.

On a similar note, I hate timers. I would like to see much more variation added to overall timer amounts.

With that said I have a suggestion tweak to this system:

  • First, remove "vulnerability window". Allow sov to be attacked at any time, but maintain that the "RF timer" does come out during or near the 4-hour Prime Time window of an alliance.

  • Second, give attackers the ability to influence the length of timers to a small degree, to counter, in part, the amount of control defenders have over it. For example, after a structure is "flipped" and a timer on it given, allow the attackers to manipulate this timer, within say a 12-hour window. This can be done in a variety of methods; further application of the Entosis Link, SBU presence in the system, or spawning special complexes during the RF process that attackers and defenders can have little skirmishes over that gradually push the timer one way or the other - whatever the method, the point is to promote smaller skirmishes in the system between the point the timer is made and when the timer comes out. It also has the effect of promoting actively defending a system, making it easier for attackers to take undefended systems by allowing them to tweak timers to their maximum benefit.

  • The goal is twofold; first to facilitate conflict between groups from different TZs. The second to encourage active defence (stopping this "timer tweaking") while making it still easier to take undefended space ("tweaking" timers to the maximum advantage of the attacker if the defender doesn't bother interfering).

    That's my opinion anyway. I like the changes overall but I think Prime Time is huge step backwards even from the Dominion system.
    Kalice Sky
    Diplomacy in Space
    #1444 - 2015-03-04 15:20:40 UTC
    Certainly lots of concerns listed by folks that should be addressed / explored. That said, these changes sound cool. Just reading this got me excited and start considering leaving WH space and coming back to Null. I'm certainly game if there is going to be smaller more active faster paced territory combat. I really like the constellation dynamics and the entosis module concept though I think it needs a few more iterations for reasons already stated.

    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1445 - 2015-03-04 15:20:59 UTC
    Kah'Les wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:


    Sorry but the subscription and population numbers do not agree with you. Neither CCP seems. So you are defeated.. EVOLVE or die.


    And who are you talking for? Where are all these subscribers you are talking about?



    that is exactly the point.. my dear lost one. They are NOT there anymore.. and that is exactly the problem CCP is trying to solve. Thank you very much for proving my own point.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

    Aralyn Cormallen
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1446 - 2015-03-04 15:21:43 UTC
    Lord TGR wrote:

    Jenn aSide wrote:
    -Really bad assumptions about what people want (even in a video game, people, especially null people, don't want 'fun' and 'lots of fights' they want power)

    Some people might want power, some people just want to be in visceral brawls.

    What "visceral brawls" have you ever had with or against Interceptors? Its tedious bug-hunting of cowards who do not want, and absolutely wont give you a fight. You form up, spend half an hour getting to them, and then they are gone in apuff of smoke. No fight, no kills, no point. It will be a miserable, soul-destroying existance.
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #1447 - 2015-03-04 15:22:07 UTC
    Lord TGR wrote:

    Actually, while the occasional big fleet is fun, having more constant fleets going up, returning, picking up reinforcements etc mean that everyone can take a more relaxed attitude to the whole fighting a war thing. No more a "meet up at 2100 eve for a 3 hour standoff for nothing", but "log in, find a fleet that's about to go out, have a quick fight, go back".


    This prove my point. Fun "for you" maybe. But for tohers (like me), that set time is useful. Mainly because "honey, do you need me to do anything? I got a fleet in an hour" lol. fun for me is being able to play without a ticked of female clinging to my back like the Banshee.

    I never had that small gang, casual, quick fight mentality and never will. EVe already has multiple spaces for that (NPC null, low sec, wormhole space), trying to make null do that is a mistake.

    Quote:

    As someone who's been in most large wars since before we lost DQPB to karttoon's tomfoolery, I actually think this'll be more enjoyable for most people.


    i heard that all thetime in 2009. People were so tired of pos grinding that Dominion sounded like a good deal.

    It's like Battlestar Galactica. "This has happened before, it will happen again" lol.

    Quote:

    If you see a way in which it can, however, now'll be a good time to point out specifics.


    That's just it, talking about specifics in a case where the entire idea (Sov) may be fundamentally flawed in the 1st place is futile. it's not the details, the the entire rationale behind the changes that need re-thinking.
    RadiantShadow
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #1448 - 2015-03-04 15:23:03 UTC
    I can't tell if you are stupid or ...

    It won't make nullsec system ownership more desirable, it will make it POSSIBLE for smaller independent corps. Who really wants to pay for a game then pay some other player to RENT in the game they are already paying for.

    I applaud CCP, and yes I have lived in high sec, wormholes, renter null and sov null.

    **** renter rules. F all that.

    yogizh wrote:

    Personally I see this progress (?) towards greater chaos that will generate random battles of unorganized small groups for some time before we all realize that lowsec should be the place for this kind of thing, small entities have nothing to gain by holding sov compared to staging in NPC null or lowsec, where they can use agents and have all their members comfortably packed in one station making them sweet sweet LPs.

    I realize there will be tweaks to this (June is months away now), but this concept won't make nullsec system ownership more desirable. The effort fending off various trolls attacking systems, capturing those anoms, upgrading systems (good luck with freighter convoys small alliances).

    Instead of giving the players something to look forward to, your are opening Pandoras box full of big nasty surprises. Remember the last one ? With the jumpdrives ? Coalitions still work, renting is still a thing, no new entities entered nullsec sov. Only fools and people who don't know much about sov can be happy about this.


    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1449 - 2015-03-04 15:23:21 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Eli Apol wrote:

    If the defender has sufficient numbers LIVING LOCALLY then they'll have no problems whatsoever.

    If however they're spread out across too many systems then yep they'll be playing cat and mouse across their whole territory for 4 hours every day. Sounds exhausting doesn't it :)


    The problem comes from the fact that the income of most systems doesn't even justify more than a couple of people living there.

    The nullsec income system has to change along with this.



    CCP can ONLY solve the economic part AFTER they have changed the sov system. Not the other way around. Otherwise if they increase drastically the income without even knowing how big, spread or concentrated alliances will become, will be impossible for them to hit a correct spot on the economy.

    It is a price that has to be paid. A small period where economic gains will not cover the needs.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #1450 - 2015-03-04 15:24:37 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Eli Apol wrote:

    If the defender has sufficient numbers LIVING LOCALLY then they'll have no problems whatsoever.

    If however they're spread out across too many systems then yep they'll be playing cat and mouse across their whole territory for 4 hours every day. Sounds exhausting doesn't it :)


    The problem comes from the fact that the income of most systems doesn't even justify more than a couple of people living there.

    The nullsec income system has to change along with this.


    Well do as corbexx did for wormhole space, independently quantify the actual figures based on facts rather than assumptions, and have your CSM representative present these FACTS to CCP for evaluation.

    If your contention is true, and a good argument is made beyond "I want more money! " then you may meet with success.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

    Eli Apol
    Definitely a nullsec alt
    #1451 - 2015-03-04 15:24:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Eli Apol wrote:

    If the defender has sufficient numbers LIVING LOCALLY then they'll have no problems whatsoever.

    If however they're spread out across too many systems then yep they'll be playing cat and mouse across their whole territory for 4 hours every day. Sounds exhausting doesn't it :)


    The problem comes from the fact that the income of most systems doesn't even justify more than a couple of people living there.

    The nullsec income system has to change along with this.

    I kind of agree although knowing the exact amounts of isk flowing in and out of null alliances coffers is not my strongest suit - But yeah phase 3 I presume :)

    e: One of the issues is definitely moon goo income just going straight to the top dogs completely bypassing the linemembers - from my rough math that would work out as something like 7 trillion isk/month just from the R64s which is just whelped on caps and SRP (or not)

    but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

    Erasmus Grant
    Order of the Eclipse
    Triumvirate.
    #1452 - 2015-03-04 15:25:12 UTC
    There should be a thing on eve bet to see how long it will take this to reach a 100 pages Pirate
    Speedkermit Damo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #1453 - 2015-03-04 15:26:01 UTC
    Aiyshimin wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Speedkermit Damo wrote:

    Which is another point. The fighting for sov is all very interesting, but I don't see many reasons to bother fighting for sov. Most nullsec space is virtually worthless. The best nullsec space is actually the NPC pockets with pirate level 4 missions.


    That's my second post in the thread.

    They've created what seems to be an improvement on a system that generates and enables conflict.

    But where are the farms and fields? Where is the incentive to actually live there, besides just the **** trophy of planting a flag?

    As for the CSM, there are two possibilities here. Either they already knew and had their say by now, or they got caught with their pants down and haven't formulated a response yet. Pick whichever you please until someone corrects me.


    You guys still don't get it? There's nothing in this game more valuable than fights. Go look in C5 space, literally oozing true apex-level ISK just waiting to be farmed, and yet it's a deserted wasteland- and the reason is that nobody enjoys 23/7 NPC grinding, no matter how much it pays.

    My chair is soaking wet at the thought of non-stop PVP during my prime time, it's like FW but not only limited to T1 frigs.


    Yeah, you'll get to use T2 frigs as well. specifically interceptors.


    Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1454 - 2015-03-04 15:26:26 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    [
    CCP can ONLY solve the economic part AFTER they have changed the sov system. Not the other way around.


    The prospect of it being simultaneous has escaped you.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #1455 - 2015-03-04 15:28:47 UTC
    Lord TGR wrote:
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    TL;DR this new system will fail for the same reason Dominion did, you can't herd cats.

    I don't see how this system'll make nullsec have fewer coalitions than it does today, considering the main reason we have 2 coalitions today is that the main way to actually win a war is to stuff as many nerds in as powerful a ship as possible into a single system. This system does away with most of that, and puts more focus on small, nimble fleets running around, which I'd postulate will turn into a lot of smaller, but more fun and intensive engagements.

    And more coalitions, because not everyone in today's coalitions will be able to deal with eachother now that the threat of The Other Coalition keeping them in line.


    The opposite will probably happen. Stuffing people into a system work and spawned mega-coalitions. Now you need to do that in multiple systems at once. The best way to do that is HAVE A SUPER-MEGA COALITION lol.

    It's because of a facet of human nature. People mistakenly believe human nature is about fighting. It's not, it's about surviving and succeeding, fighting is just a tool, like cooperation and politics. If cooperation offers more benefits that conflict, people cooperate, which is why changes CCP thought would create more conflict created more PEACE instead.

    It's basically a corollary of Malcanis' law, the more you try to break up the big groups, the more reason the big groups have to exist.

    If the past is any kind of predictor, This will be the same (bookmark this post so we can talk about it in July).
    epicurus ataraxia
    Illusion of Solitude.
    Illusion of Solitude
    #1456 - 2015-03-04 15:29:27 UTC
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    [
    CCP can ONLY solve the economic part AFTER they have changed the sov system. Not the other way around.


    The prospect of it being simultaneous has escaped you.


    The prospect of actually doing the work to show what is actually available as income seems to escaped you.
    Until you can prove you live in a neglected area of space with hard figures, you cannot just expect CCP to turn on the tap.
    Take note of a good example that worked. And proved that factual reasonable discourse has the desired effects.

    There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

    Kaarous Aldurald
    Black Hydra Consortium.
    #1457 - 2015-03-04 15:29:42 UTC
    Eli Apol wrote:
    Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
    Eli Apol wrote:

    If the defender has sufficient numbers LIVING LOCALLY then they'll have no problems whatsoever.

    If however they're spread out across too many systems then yep they'll be playing cat and mouse across their whole territory for 4 hours every day. Sounds exhausting doesn't it :)


    The problem comes from the fact that the income of most systems doesn't even justify more than a couple of people living there.

    The nullsec income system has to change along with this.

    I kind of agree although knowing the exact amounts of isk flowing in and out of null alliances coffers is not my strongest suit - But yeah phase 3 I presume :)


    Liquid isk is not the solution either. The bounty system is a failure, it does nothing but decrease in value with inflation, exacerbating the "I have to farm even more!" problem that so often leads to burnout and abusive afk farming schemes. (or worse, renting)

    LP, or some such mechanic, is the way forward.

    "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

    One of ours, ten of theirs.

    Best Meltdown Ever.

    Miner Hottie
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #1458 - 2015-03-04 15:30:04 UTC
    This proposal strikes me as a convoluted and artificial change, using cheap rehashed faction warfare mechanics, with null sec indexes from a long time ago.

    This isn't honest development work, it barely rates as "rebalancing", it looks lazy and slapped together. Then polished with the wrong oil.

    The changes are convoluted, because they force us to play a certain way: No longer can the CFC impose it's will with 1,000 megathrons, nor PL, strike fear into a sov holders heart with its super caps. No, now we must run around in interceptors and cruisers and engage in fights with similar ships in honorable brawl in some artificial node after we missed catching that last interceptor because CCP cares not about the relative advantages of living in the UK with a low ping vs being on the wrong side of the planet on ancient copper wires. We then dismount from our puny steeds after four hours of toil fending off the heathens looking for giggles, good fights and tears and mount up our trusty dusty mining ships to maintain the ancient honourable industry index which actually only measure rocks shot with a mining laser. So instead of grinding EHP to capture a system, or defend it via removal of an SBU, I now grind rocks for some minimal returns after refining to keep an index up to make my systems more secure? What do I get for my troubles, my sweat? A 25% POS fuel bonus and if I am lucky my ihub didn't explode. What else? Slightly better PI, yeah, doesn't count towards holding the system. Better ratting? Hi-sec incursions are more viable and worthwhile. The rocks I grind aren't hugely better than hi sec once we factor in risk. Actual productive industry is better, but who cares? It doesn't count to holding sov. Meanwhile, my trustiest and mightiest battlesteads spin forlornly in station unloved by CCP, because battleships and capitals seem to lack a real role in this Brave Rehashed World.

    What if I want to phone a friend, because I can't cover the local front and the wormhole at the back door? Nope, friends in other alliances are of minimal help against a troll ceptor or some of the outlandish Svipul fits floating around, plus they can't entosis the station or whatever, because screw you blue list is CCPs thought pattern.

    This seems to me to be that unfortunate child from another relationship who expresses recessive alleles on the M1CR gene, who also appears to have a neurodevelopment disorder, who may have placed undergarments on their head, doused in flammable liquids and they are running around, playing with matches.

    Then there is the prime time. If there is one aspect that is artificial it's this. Existing timers allow the attacker to control when they 1st attack, timing after that is the defenders advantage. This new change to me feels like CCP didn't get have enough fun trolling us AUTZ folks a week or 2 ago trying to do hardware stuff. Now they see fit to largely deny us sov content.

    Finally, what is it about smaller gang fighting that CCP is promoting here? Why is it better? Beyond a server load question, why do you absolutely demand we fight this way to control null sec? Small gang stuff happens in null sec already and has meaning in wormholes and Low sec? If i wanted to play that way, I would have moved there already.

    The TL:DR of this is: Make the industry index more inclusive, holding sov needs to be worthwhile if you are going to pump up the risk this much, remember there are timezones beyond the 5 hours either side of Iceland, try talking to sov holders and finally, perhaps go back to a drawing board, these changes are just not good enough.

    It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.

    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #1459 - 2015-03-04 15:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
    RadiantShadow wrote:
    I can't tell if you are stupid or ...

    It won't make nullsec system ownership more desirable, it will make it POSSIBLE for smaller independent corps. Who really wants to pay for a game then pay some other player to RENT in the game they are already paying for.


    Wrong. The small group will still have 2 bad options:

    Rent from someone stronger

    Or

    Sieze a small piece of null and become content/fodder for everyone looking for a fight, which is fun if you are looking for a fight but sucks if your trying to earn isk for PLEX and more ships lol.

    Renting is caused by the value of the solar system, not how you take the solar system.

    This new system will pull a Dominion and strengthen already existing big groups who can adapt to the changes more easily than new/small groups can form. Winter June is coming.
    Arrendis
    TK Corp
    #1460 - 2015-03-04 15:32:42 UTC
    Eli Porter wrote:
    Arrendis wrote:
    Eli Porter wrote:
    I hope the module uses like 5k PG so only BC and above could use it.


    Man, what battlecruisers are you flying?


    ACR+RCU Harbinger, because ACR+RCU maller reaches 4.4k PG.


    Dude, that is a whole lot of your tank being sacrificed to get that PG. That leaves you 1 free slot between Lows and Rigs. DCU II and pray? Lol