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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Colette Kassia
Kassia Industrial Supply
#81 - 2015-02-28 06:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Colette Kassia
I'm generally not a fan of monkeying with skillpoints. But the parade of people calling SP remaps is never going to go away. So here is what I suggest: A drug, manufactured like a booster, that allows you to unlearn a skill and recover half of the SP for remap into something else.

- One dose, one level of a skill.
- Works immediately, transfers 50% of the unlearned skill's SP into the 'unallocated skillpoints' thing.
- Cannot unlearn a skill level that is a prerequisite of another skill you have learned.
- Made from gas-cloud stuff, and with drug lab equipment.
- Contraband in all empire space.

Skillpoints are the most valuable thing in EVE. They're more valuable than ISK or even gametime specifically because you can't buy them for any price, either in-game currency or real-world $$$. So throwing away any for any reason would be a very stupid thing to do. But CCP's philosophy is to give people the freedom to make dumb decisions. I believe it's right-and-proper that anyone who would think using this a good idea should have the freedom to make their toons as dumb as they are.


[EDIT: And F--- NO to any method of buying and injecting SP, or draining SP into anything that could be sold or transferred to alts. Stupid, stupid idea. You shouldn't even have to ask.]
bonkerss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-02-28 11:45:06 UTC
im all for a sp-remap once a year much like the attribute remap. dont make it possible to buy skill points or skillboosts. we already have implants for that.
Sony Ichosira
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-02-28 12:22:37 UTC
Colette Kassia wrote:
I'm generally not a fan of monkeying with skillpoints. But the parade of people calling SP remaps is never going to go away. So here is what I suggest: A drug, manufactured like a booster, that allows you to unlearn a skill and recover half of the SP for remap into something else.

- One dose, one level of a skill.
- Works immediately, transfers 50% of the unlearned skill's SP into the 'unallocated skillpoints' thing.
- Cannot unlearn a skill level that is a prerequisite of another skill you have learned.
- Made from gas-cloud stuff, and with drug lab equipment.
- Contraband in all empire space.

Skillpoints are the most valuable thing in EVE. They're more valuable than ISK or even gametime specifically because you can't buy them for any price, either in-game currency or real-world $$$. So throwing away any for any reason would be a very stupid thing to do. But CCP's philosophy is to give people the freedom to make dumb decisions. I believe it's right-and-proper that anyone who would think using this a good idea should have the freedom to make their toons as dumb as they are.


[EDIT: And F--- NO to any method of buying and injecting SP, or draining SP into anything that could be sold or transferred to alts. Stupid, stupid idea. You shouldn't even have to ask.]


This remap with SP loss would be good idea but not for 50% loss but for more, like 70-80% of sp lost. That way you can recover something for "useless" skills and put it back into without rebuilding your character.
luna1102
Perkone
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-02-28 16:21:56 UTC
Pay to Win.
- This is still possible with buying PLEX and selling to the market
- Buying any character in the character bazar with the needed skills. There is no difference.
The last line, which should NEVER be changed: Renaming the character name.
If this will be changed - you have the perfect Pay to Win mechanic.


Unlearning Skills.
Everyone has some skills in his head from early days, which are not needed anymore.
Currently you can learn about max. 23 Mio SPs every year in the normal learning skill queue.
The idea:
- Let you create an "unlearning skill queue", where you get about 33% of the SPs back as "unallocated SPs". This shoud run at 20% of the current learning speed of your attributes.
- Therefore you can unlearn about max. 4,5 Mio SPs every year (slowly in the background) and get there about 1,5 Mio back.
- If you reach the 0 SP of the skill, you can destroy the skillbook in your head, if you want.

With this system you can optimize your character, but not as a big bang - slowly as the un-skillqueue Blink is running. (The same logic - just reverted.) If you don't unlearn anything, the time is lost. You have to plan, which skills and the order of the unused skills (due to the current attribute mapping) and you have to wait for completion - this is the EVE way. Big smile
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#85 - 2015-02-28 18:32:40 UTC
Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
MukkBarovian
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#86 - 2015-02-28 18:45:48 UTC
I liked the idea CCP was throwing around of removing atribbutes and just having skillpoints accrue at a particular rate.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#87 - 2015-02-28 20:22:40 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top.

How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps)

EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-02-28 21:01:24 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top.

How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps)

EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea.


A remap system for SP is horrible whether it is purchased or time limited. It's still an SP remap.
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#89 - 2015-02-28 22:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Sizeof Void
Buying or remapping existing SP for PLEX... no.

Buying SP training remaps for PLEX, yes.

Why? Because CCP devs like to add new skills (most recently, see T3 dessie skills), and new skills always cause problems for planning optimal SP training - particularly for younger players, who usually need to switch between optimizing Per/Wil or Int/Mem.

With the old twice-per-year release cycle, the additions of new skills had less of an impact on the need to remap frequently for optimal SP training. Once-per-year remap was reasonable (plus the extra ones you get as a noob).

With the current every-six-week release cycle, once-per-year remap is no longer adequate. If CCP devs want to introduce new skills more frequently than once or twice per year, then the ability to remap also needs to be more frequent. Otherwise, younger players continue to fall behind the older players, in terms of skill training and remain disadvantaged.

As for the arguments that this only benefits richer players... well, this bias already exists in the fact that only richer players can afford to always fit +5 attribute implants in all of their clones.

Alternatively, CCP could just scrap the whole attribute/implant-based skill training, so that everyone trains SP at the same rate for all skills....
Alexis Nightwish
#90 - 2015-02-28 23:59:20 UTC
Buying SP, no matter what spin or hoops you apply to it, is pay to win.

So put me into the "Oh, **** NO!" group.

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Mag's
Azn Empire
#91 - 2015-03-01 00:02:22 UTC
Sizeof Void wrote:
Buying or remapping existing SP for PLEX... no.

Buying SP training remaps for PLEX, yes.

Why? Because CCP devs like to add new skills (most recently, see T3 dessie skills), and new skills always cause problems for planning optimal SP training - particularly for younger players, who usually need to switch between optimizing Per/Wil or Int/Mem.

With the old twice-per-year release cycle, the additions of new skills had less of an impact on the need to remap frequently for optimal SP training. Once-per-year remap was reasonable (plus the extra ones you get as a noob).

With the current every-six-week release cycle, once-per-year remap is no longer adequate. If CCP devs want to introduce new skills more frequently than once or twice per year, then the ability to remap also needs to be more frequent. Otherwise, younger players continue to fall behind the older players, in terms of skill training and remain disadvantaged.

As for the arguments that this only benefits richer players... well, this bias already exists in the fact that only richer players can afford to always fit +5 attribute implants in all of their clones.

Alternatively, CCP could just scrap the whole attribute/implant-based skill training, so that everyone trains SP at the same rate for all skills....
That's not an argument for SP remapping, that's one for the removal of attributes and learning implants and the giving of a flat 2700 SP/h for all.

SP remapping is bad. There is not one 'good' or 'up' side to it and it fixes nothing.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-03-01 00:24:03 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:
Buying or remapping existing SP for PLEX... no.

Buying SP training remaps for PLEX, yes.

Why? Because CCP devs like to add new skills (most recently, see T3 dessie skills), and new skills always cause problems for planning optimal SP training - particularly for younger players, who usually need to switch between optimizing Per/Wil or Int/Mem.

With the old twice-per-year release cycle, the additions of new skills had less of an impact on the need to remap frequently for optimal SP training. Once-per-year remap was reasonable (plus the extra ones you get as a noob).

With the current every-six-week release cycle, once-per-year remap is no longer adequate. If CCP devs want to introduce new skills more frequently than once or twice per year, then the ability to remap also needs to be more frequent. Otherwise, younger players continue to fall behind the older players, in terms of skill training and remain disadvantaged.

As for the arguments that this only benefits richer players... well, this bias already exists in the fact that only richer players can afford to always fit +5 attribute implants in all of their clones.

Alternatively, CCP could just scrap the whole attribute/implant-based skill training, so that everyone trains SP at the same rate for all skills....
That's not an argument for SP remapping, that's one for the removal of attributes and learning implants and the giving of a flat 2700 SP/h for all.

SP remapping is bad. There is not one 'good' or 'up' side to it and it fixes nothing.


If they just put in a flat rate SP system they should make it the lowest current sp/hr just so those wanting everything faster without working for it /risking anything get no benefit from the change :D
Svarii
Acclimatization
#93 - 2015-03-01 01:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Svarii
Buy skill points? NO!

NO!

You wanted want? To buy skill points? NO!

Hey remember those learning skills they took out of the game? Why do you think they would let you buy skill points. And even if I had 10 trillion isk to waste, I would still NOT be in favor in allowing the purchase of skill points.

You want more skill points? Then queue up some skills and wait like everyone else.

You can already remap your attributes. Leave it at that.

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#94 - 2015-03-01 18:54:18 UTC
It has been said, but getting rid of the mapping would be fine with me. I personally like making a year long plan and switching over, but it does kind of screw of new players and is not intuitive.

On the subject of paying to unlearn skills, etc. I am not a huge fan. Lets keep a couple consequences in eve. If you train mining to 5, you get to keep it regardless of whether or not you feel shamed.
Capn Steve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-03-02 23:21:41 UTC
Personally I don't think PLEX should be used for anything more than it already is. It's already close enough to Pay2Win.

I think skill point remapping is perfectly doable, but it'll never happen because it would involve methods for checking prerequisites and CCP is apparently afraid of that, as evidenced by the way skill injection works.

That said, the way I'd like to see it done is this:

You allow a remap of 1mil skill points after 30 days have passed (or some period longer than it takes to get 1mil sp) and your SP total is more than 1mil greater than it was at the time of the last remap. If both those conditions are true, you can never remap all your skill points; only the last million SP. This lets new players dip their toes into a skill set, then change their minds without wasting weeks of SP. The limits prevent veterans from totally changing the skill set of a 100mil SP character, and 1mil SP doesn't mean much on a character in the bazaar. Essentially, this gives players a 2 week margin of error on their skill training. There are still consequences to the choices you make. If you trained a skill to lvl 5, chances are you're not getting rid of it entirely unless it's a very low rank skill.

The idea here is to give a margin of error that really matters for new players who are just figuring out the game. The numbers I mentioned could be tweaked easily, but the idea is solid. The whole reason this subject comes up so often is because newer players get frustrated when they go down one path only to find that it's boring, or there's a different path they didn't even know about last week, but now they've put all this momentum into that first path and they don't want to "waste" the SP they've already paid for (and yes, if you're paying a sub you're paying for SP).
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#96 - 2015-03-03 15:32:27 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top.

How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps)

EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea.


A remap system for SP is horrible whether it is purchased or time limited. It's still an SP remap.

But an you explain why it's horrible? Lots of people have been saying that SP remaps are band, will kill EvE, etc., but nobody is saying why. How exactly are SP remaps a bad thing?

Especially in light of the fact that CCP makes occasional changes that render certain skills less valuable (Anchoring V, Tactical Shield Manipulation V, etc.), it seems that some form of limited SP remapping (like I proposed here) would be totally appropriate. Please read the post I linked before replying, the system I proposed has some very hefty limits, but would allow players to adapt to curveballs that CCP throws at us.

Please note, I'm only talking about recurring remaps. Involving PLEX or Aurum in any kind of skill point manipulation (aside from paying for game time to train) is a whole other ballgame. "Pay to win" is bad, period.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-03-03 15:50:36 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Huge benefit to rich players both in game and out of game. SP is one of the great equalizers in EVE in that you CAN'T buy your way to the top.

How would you feel about a remap system that was limited, only periodically available, and not available for purchase? (i.e. annual like attribute remaps)

EDIT: I absolutely agree that buying SP remaps is a horrible idea.


A remap system for SP is horrible whether it is purchased or time limited. It's still an SP remap.

But an you explain why it's horrible? Lots of people have been saying that SP remaps are band, will kill EvE, etc., but nobody is saying why. How exactly are SP remaps a bad thing?

Especially in light of the fact that CCP makes occasional changes that render certain skills less valuable (Anchoring V, Tactical Shield Manipulation V, etc.), it seems that some form of limited SP remapping (like I proposed here) would be totally appropriate. Please read the post I linked before replying, the system I proposed has some very hefty limits, but would allow players to adapt to curveballs that CCP throws at us.

Please note, I'm only talking about recurring remaps. Involving PLEX or Aurum in any kind of skill point manipulation (aside from paying for game time to train) is a whole other ballgame. "Pay to win" is bad, period.


I've read the post before and replied in that thread about 3 comments later...SP remap is horrible as it reduces the relevance of choices made by a player and will always be possible to abuse in some way.

A player has made choices and should live with them. That's what makes each character unique and should remain so. Otherwise every character would simply migrate gradually to 'Perfect char for career x, y, or z' and discrete characters would become pointless.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#98 - 2015-03-03 16:11:37 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I've read the post before and replied in that thread about 3 comments later...SP remap is horrible as it reduces the relevance of choices made by a player and will always be possible to abuse in some way.

A player has made choices and should live with them. That's what makes each character unique and should remain so. Otherwise every character would simply migrate gradually to 'Perfect char for career x, y, or z' and discrete characters would become pointless.

Some thoughts:

1. Only being able to remap a limited number of skill points wouldn't exactly allow players to completely change careers. Optimize and tweak, yes. Experiment, yes. But not radically alter. You couldn't take a dedicated, 50 million skill point mining character and, with a single remap, turn them into a dedicated combat character. You probably wouldn't even do it with a handful of remaps.
2. By extension, since you feel that all consequences are permanent, would you remove player attribute remapping and force all players to live with one set of attributes permanently? Or, hey, let's make things really permanent and make pod death final. Living with the consequences of your actions is a good thing, but in most cases there's some method of mitigating said consequences.
3. CCP grants extra attribute remaps to new players because they realize that early on new players will make mistakes. They grant regular attribute remaps to all characters because they realize that eventually, characters may want to change the path that they're on. The skill remap proposal I made follows those trends: allow adaptation and experimentation, but with consequences and with hard limits in place.
4. EvE changes. Some skills have their utility reduced, which means that a decision that made sense with the skill was trained no longer makes sense. Is it really a good idea to force players to live with consequences of actions that they had no control over?


Keep in mind, I don't think EvE needs skill point remapping. I'd be perfectly fine without it getting implemented. But when you consider the trends regarding where CCP is taking EvE, the desire to make it more friendly for new players, and the complaints of old players who have once useful skills reduced in utility, I think it's something that should be considered in some form.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-03-03 16:45:17 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
...my waffle, belgian preferably with some chocolate sauce and sliced banana please....

Some thoughts:

1. Only being able to remap a limited number of skill points wouldn't exactly allow players to completely change careers. Optimize and tweak, yes. Experiment, yes. But not radically alter. You couldn't take a dedicated, 50 million skill point mining character and, with a single remap, turn them into a dedicated combat character. You probably wouldn't even do it with a handful of remaps.
2. By extension, since you feel that all consequences are permanent, would you remove player attribute remapping and force all players to live with one set of attributes permanently? Or, hey, let's make things really permanent and make pod death final. Living with the consequences of your actions is a good thing, but in most cases there's some method of mitigating said consequences.
3. CCP grants extra attribute remaps to new players because they realize that early on new players will make mistakes. They grant regular attribute remaps to all characters because they realize that eventually, characters may want to change the path that they're on. The skill remap proposal I made follows those trends: allow adaptation and experimentation, but with consequences and with hard limits in place.
4. EvE changes. Some skills have their utility reduced, which means that a decision that made sense with the skill was trained no longer makes sense. Is it really a good idea to force players to live with consequences of actions that they had no control over?


Keep in mind, I don't think EvE needs skill point remapping. I'd be perfectly fine without it getting implemented. But when you consider the trends regarding where CCP is taking EvE, the desire to make it more friendly for new players, and the complaints of old players who have once useful skills reduced in utility, I think it's something that should be considered in some form.


1) Only remapping a limited number wouldn't work. For it to be useful it would have to be enough SP to change an entire skill at least to another career otherwise whats the point?

2) I do believe consequences should be permanent to a point, w ehave clones to protect against perma death but beyond that if you trained it/bought it/broke it it's yours. I'm from an RPG background where if you screwed up you lost your character and started over so have little sympathy with the whole 'need' to remap SP because of choices you no longer like.

3) I'm fine with the early remaps and made use of one of them myself early on, good plan and works well in my mind.If a player wants to change path then they can, and they can train it just the same as every other player on that path. If a player wants something radically different there is MCT and alts. If you experiment then the consequence is that you may not like the result and you have to live with it. No SP 'save points' please, leave things like that to HALO etc...

4) Of course Eve changes and skills become more or less useful but never useless (or very rarely and then they refund SP). However during thetime a skill was useful you made use of it to generate ISK/fun so the investment was worthwhile. When something new comes along you get the fun of training it along with evryone else without any accrued SP remap headstart.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#100 - 2015-03-03 17:03:56 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
1) Only remapping a limited number wouldn't work. For it to be useful it would have to be enough SP to change an entire skill at least to another career otherwise whats the point?

I've read your other points, understand them, and see where you're coming from. I do agree with some of the points you raised, which is why I say I'm not sold on the idea of remapping yet.


But this point you raised confuses me. In my head, the whole reason that my proposal isn't over the top is because it does place hard limits on how much you can remap. I'm not sure I follow.



I had just typed out a long example highlighting how useful even a limited remap could be when something dawned on me: any form of skill point remapping could potentially render attributes and attribute remaps useless.

Case in point: leadership skills. Nobody likes training them because you have to set your primary attribute as Charisma to learn them at max speed, which means you end up spending a good chunk of a year training other skills at sub-optimal speeds unless you have a bonus remap. But with skill remaps, you can keep your attributes set to whatever you want, so long as you're training to your peak attributes, and then just remap the skills into leadership later. Poof, no attribute remap necessary.


So, if CCP were to implement skill point remaps, it seems that they'd have to couple it with doing away with the attribute system entirely. That seems like an awfully sweeping change, especially when you consider the implant market.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs