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Dev blog: Opportunities Abound - The New Player Experience

First post First post First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#101 - 2015-02-20 02:32:12 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
...you could give some SP in cloaking for scanning down a wormhole, but only to subscribed accounts (should be awarded retroactively, of course)

Or take away SP for every hour spent cloaked. Twisted

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Diemos Hiaraki
Septentrion
#102 - 2015-02-20 02:55:14 UTC
Looks really interesting. I'm not sure what to think about the lack of rewards and personally I'd like to see a reduction in training time to relevant core skills for the activity done, or for modules like the microwarpdrive the first level of high speed manoeuvring trained automatically.

One small thing I would really like done for the NPE is to have the 'Science 4' requirement for overheating changed to something more related to ship combat. For combat pilots it appears to be a wasted day training with no benefit for a very very long time.

Tarpedo wrote:
This is nice but could be even better if "old player experience" had open-end missions too ("kill any 10 NPCs in asteroid belts", "visit 3 landmarks", "do 3 missions for a fleet", "pop 5 player ships", "get killmails for 100 million isk", etc.)


Even though the NPE is more important atm I'd like to second this. Looking back on this characters history, there are times I've quit due to what I perceived as a lack of progression. I'd consider something like the ISIS, but where skills and career paths combine (since a lot of skills don't apply to ships and aren't represented on ISIS.)

If a pilot is training for exploration for example you'd expect the player after x amount of time to have hacked a certain amount of sites. Over an extended period you could add goals for higher class sites that unlock tags like faction tags for players to lose - in this example of an explorer it would be something like 'John Smith's Fearless explorer' tag. Collecting these tags could then be used for pirates or any other PvPer for their career paths.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2015-02-20 03:02:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Salvage another player’s loot
Find and take another player’s abandoned drone
Pod kill another player
Broadcast a chat message in w-space
Visit the EVE Gate
Visit a shattered planet
Defeat a Drifter Battleship
Help fend off a Sansha incursion
Survive a ghost site hack
Mine X m3 of ice in nullsec
Mine X m3 of gas in w-space
Build a T2 ship or module
Plug in a hardwiring implant
Consume an illegal booster
Sell an item via contract

Lot of options for us going forward :)


Please avoid turning this game into some bastard kid of this X this.

Are players looking for and/or needing(?) that kind of stuff really the kind of players you're looking for ?

Better introduction to the game - in space, more "dynamic", etc. - sure but ... this ?

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2015-02-20 03:02:57 UTC
You need to have rewards, particularly if you are getting rid of the old tutorial system.

The current system sets new players up with:

  • A destroyer
  • Two industrial ships
  • Two mining frigates
  • One of each kind of T1 combat frigate
  • A variety of modules
  • Skill books to use all of the above.
  • Around 300k isk


That is a fortune to a new player. Don't take it away.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#105 - 2015-02-20 03:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Soltys wrote:
Please avoid turning this game into some bastard kid of...

There's nothing wrong with carrots. Particularly ones of the SP kind, since being able to earn SP bonuses would newer allow players to train into various skillets faster. As we already have "Masteries", it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea either for rewarding some SP for completely mastering a particular ship.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#106 - 2015-02-20 05:02:35 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
I would really like to see the opportunity system branch into more advanced gameplay which would also help new players make isk--such as, opportunity goals for setting up PI on a planet, for doing research on a blueprint, for participating in an incursion, for joining faction war and running a "plex," for visiting a wormhole, for killing a sleeper in a wormhole, for running a lvl 1 or lvl 2 lvl 3 or lvl 4 mission, for having 10m isk in the wallet, and so on. It would also be nice, as other people suggested, for the system to have "social" goals, such as joining a fleet, starting a conversation with another player, getting a kill mail, and so on.


This looks incredibly similar to my list. Can go a lot further though as well. Look at wingspantt's:

Salvage another player’s loot
Find and take another player’s abandoned drone
Pod kill another player
Broadcast a chat message in w-space
Visit the EVE Gate
Visit a shattered planet
Defeat a Drifter Battleship
Help fend off a Sansha incursion
Survive a ghost site hack
Mine X m3 of ice in nullsec
Mine X m3 of gas in w-space
Build a T2 ship or module
Plug in a hardwiring implant
Consume an illegal booster
Sell an item via contract

Lot of options for us going forward :)


I wouldn't pay any mind to that WINGSPAN hack. He is a newb who can barely gank an AFK Iteron V.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#107 - 2015-02-20 06:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
On their own, these strike me as good ideas. But then I take a step back and have to categorize them as another type of text-based tutorial. Good, but not great.

Aura is underdeveloped. heh. I mean she's not being utilized to her full potential as an NPC. She should be a figure in CQ, for one. She should have a question tree so players can find information using Aura as an information kiosk in humanoid form.

Also let her walk around (plzplzplz)

There's the issue of local client size due to sound files, but you could make these on-demand, rather than storing them in the client install.

As for a suggestion that is not just a tutorial: replace ship prerequisites with Mastery Level 1. Example: the Merlin's Mastery Level 1 for new characters. As you start getting into T2 and bigger ship classes, Mastery Level 1 becomes more appealing compared to current prereqs.

The reasoning is players will look at ship prereqs that don't make sense to them, and interpret it as something out of reach due to a time wall (and a subscription fee wall). This is especially true when training times fall beyond the trial period.

For all but the smallest ships, there's a rift between the trial period and training time for prereqs. The training periods are painful for everyone, but the trial period in particular is way too early to throw down the gauntlet of "sub and train or don't get stuff."

I hope you'll spend some time asking about prereqs. Skill level V prereqs, and not just Spaceship Command. Disconnect Signature Focusing from Target Painting V, for example. Rename and disconnect Advanced Weapon Upgrades from Weapon Upgrades. Allow T2 ships to be undocked with the T2 ship skill to 1 and the base hull to 1.

To reduce the effect of gaining too much utility just for sitting in the ship, role bonuses can be distributed by mastery level, rather than in one lump sum. It's rather bland and thoughtless, don't you think.

CCP Explorer commented on Twitter about Adobe's pricing structure, and he called it atrocious. It's painfully quid pro quo. EVE's prereqs are the same way, and it's how they're perceived, and it doesn't matter what RP logic is used to support them. It's bad and cause for resentment.

CCP Rise wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The strongest indicators for a new player staying with EVE are associated with social activity: joining corps, using market and contract systems, pvping, etc.

Have you shown cause and effect here? That is, is the cause of the players leaving the game their lack of social activity? Or is it that the players who have no interest in social activity find this is not the game they were looking for, and move on?


Simple answer is no. The closest come, for now, to establishing cause is to simply ask using exit surveys or other similar feedback channels. Otherwise we are doing the best we can with correlation.

As a funny side note: one of the stronger indicators for whether or not someone sticks with EVE is whether or not they used combat drones during their first 30 days. Maybe using drones is just so awesome that they decide to sub right then and there?! Or maybe it's just correlation related to depth of engagement. You be the judge!

It sounds to me like an indicator of self driven curiosity and maybe a bit of IQ. This might be good news to elitists, but bad news for a game (with plans to be an entertaining experience as a service).

It's also not a boasting matter for a game to be so confounding and confusing. Players have to build months, years of experience before forming an accurate opinion of what EVE is like as a game. Perhaps some of EVE's identity, quirks, and overall game design philosophy can be explained up front, so that players have a filter to apply to EVE's various mechanics.

It would be a bit self-referential for a video game, but I think it's necessary for players to understand what they're experiencing.
Sing Khai
Doomheim
#108 - 2015-02-20 07:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Sing Khai
how do I experience the new player system?

Im on SISI and its the 20th. what do I do now? haha

uh, Im serious.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#109 - 2015-02-20 07:52:17 UTC
I agree that the new system is way better than the current one, and probably new players will be very better set for exploring the game this way.

On the other hand, that's another nail on the coffin for ingame avatars. What?
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#110 - 2015-02-20 08:29:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
I'm STILL very much in favour of overhauling the complete game introduction thing and newbie systems.

Why not start the game as a "CQ simulation" in a shielded set of systems (only accessed by new characters), where all the characters have a whole bunch of SP and have unlimited access to premade bigger/cooler ships, BS, perhaps logistics, inties and whatnot of all races. Where they can toy around, do funky tutorials "kill that BS with your bomber", "use this AF to kill a BC", "use this BR to evade a gatecamp", "use this orca to gang boost these npc miners for a minute (while having gang links explained in the mean time) after which you have to haul their mined ore back to station" etc etc etc. Funky stuff, advanced play styles but brought in a basic, easy to understand manner. Where every completed challenge would give that new character some related skills and assets upon completion of the entire tutorial.

And then do the whole "well soldier, that was the simulation. Now you're becoming a pod pilot" where they "clone" to the real game world and lose all those funky SP in the process. It would convey the lore, it would be awesome and it would give them some funky things to aim for because they're flown that funky ship or done that funky play style, now they KNOW what they want to be doing and training for.
Vesan Terakol
Trollgrin Sadface
Dark Taboo
#111 - 2015-02-20 08:41:57 UTC
I really like the underlying principle of this system. It reminds me of the tutorial/achievement system from a certain other sandbox game of blocky nature.

Now, i perceive this as good (or at least better than what we had before). Every time i tried to introduce a friend to EVE, i had to tell him, that the tutorial is important (as it sets you up with a lot of th skillbooks that i would honestly forget to recommend to obtain) but absolutely horrific. "Just bear through it." And i got the answer "Why should i?" And assisting someone without literally sitting beside them and reading the tutorial too was really hard for me.

I also like the long-therm goal: Pointing you towards activities you might have otherwise never realized existed.

And based on the presented data, i believe that "Launch your drones" should be somewhere amongst the first available objectives :P

Now, the topic of rewards was brought several times. I firmly believe that EVE is not about the list of awards you will get when you do this or that. It is about scraping the reward yourself from the asphalt after you splattered someone into it.
This is not to say that the starter gear (the guns and ships you get throughout the tutorial and career agents) Is not important or should not be adjusted (i do feel that the destroyer is a bit out of place there, it is a rather specialized hull with low defenses that has the tendency to die a lot).

I feel that you should be able to appreciate the reward of doing the action and not be blinded by the reward the tutorial gives you.

And since this is based of an achievement system, I want to express my concern that achievements in EVE should be about what you and the other players feel like something big. There shouldn't be a list of arbitrarily selected activities that a person should struggle to accomplish. And i do appreciate the effort to verbally differentiate the "opportunity" system from that.

As a final note, it would be really nice if uncompleted opportunities would "pop up" when the opportunity to complete them is presented:

"Hey, this is a wreck of a player and it has stuff in it. Why don't you check out what's inside! (unless the person who produced it is still there)"

"Look, there is an anomaly here! Probe it down and get horribly murdered inside!"

Like a small marker above the object of interest which expands to the full text when you hover the mouse above it.
And maybe also a counter in the top left corner: "Visible opportunities in this system: 7"
Darkblad
Doomheim
#112 - 2015-02-20 10:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
First short thing from my initial experience on Sisi:

I noticed the question panel from Aura but rather wanted to see all opportunities, like "try before you buy" (this panel disappears when I open the map/ISIS. Aura's question window disappeared an now I'm lost! Well, sort of.

NPEISDRIP

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#113 - 2015-02-20 11:02:30 UTC
Would try them all for sport reasons... :D

Lets find out how all stuff in new eden works.

Off course, if players could make template goals, or corporations that would be awesome.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#114 - 2015-02-20 11:12:26 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
So, since people are coming up with nice lists, I will add some suggestions of my own.

- Unstack a stack of items in your inventory windows
- Use a station container
- Buy something in station X and sell again in station X within 24h and make profit
- Buy a product in station X, sell in station Y and make profit
- Buy a product in region X, sell in region Y and make profit
- Finish a courier contract and make profit
- Set up a courier contract from station A to B
- Set up a courier contract from region A to B
- Find out the price of a product X in region Y and Z
- Multisell a set of items
- Remote sell an item
- Remote adjust a sell order
- Remote adjust a buy order
- Remote setup a contract
- Find out the amount of tax payed on a certain sale
- Find out the standing of your character on the station you are visiting
- Set up a buy order using Margin Trading
- Increase the amount of market order slots above 20
- Remote lookup a station container

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#115 - 2015-02-20 11:16:29 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
CCP Rise wrote:

As a funny side note: one of the stronger indicators for whether or not someone sticks with EVE is whether or not they used combat drones during their first 30 days. Maybe using drones is just so awesome that they decide to sub right then and there?! Or maybe it's just correlation related to depth of engagement. You be the judge!


Thats nice for combat minded people, can you produce a snippet that is pointing towards people that go into the "enabling" part of EVE. Think about trading, shipping, etc...

Mike Azariah wrote:
The only problem with a list of trophies or achievements is that some will mistake it for the actual purpose of game play. Which it is not.

We do need to make sure that the starting player has access to isk, but if they route from opportunities to the career agents then the isk and ships are still there.

m


Maybe we should make certain goals available based on a background timer, so you will have to find things to do yourself while waiting for the nxt things on the list comming up. However, if you do something advanced behind a timer, you can unlock it. So, when you google it, or find the wiki you can speed things up ;).

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Darkblad
Doomheim
#116 - 2015-02-20 11:26:57 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Why not start the game as a "CQ simulation" in a shielded set of systems (only accessed by new characters), where all the characters have a whole bunch of SP and have unlimited access to premade bigger/cooler ships, BS, perhaps logistics, inties and whatnot of all races. Where they can toy around, do funky tutorials "kill that BS with your bomber", "use this AF to kill a BC", "use this BR to evade a gatecamp", "use this orca to gang boost these npc miners for a minute (while having gang links explained in the mean time) after which you have to haul their mined ore back to station" etc etc etc. Funky stuff, advanced play styles but brought in a basic, easy to understand manner. Where every completed challenge would give that new character some related skills and assets upon completion of the entire tutorial.
Rookies have other challenges to master that may appear tiny for veterans. Giving them the opportunity (sic!) to board a ship they can fly once they're adult but still being unaware of the core mechanics won't help that much. However, such experiences could certainly trigger an Opportunity, so once the rookie has reached a point where he did this all by himself provides some further feeling of having achieved something.

NPEISDRIP

Darkblad
Doomheim
#117 - 2015-02-20 11:31:55 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:
Maybe we should make certain goals available based on a background timer, so you will have to find things to do yourself while waiting for the nxt things on the list comming up. However, if you do something advanced behind a timer, you can unlock it. So, when you google it, or find the wiki you can speed things up ;).
What if certain Opportunities are invisible to the player? This might result in players trying all sorts of things, just to find out if they get an achievement opportunity completed note (not that much unlike mastery level 5, but hidden). This will also result in opportunities being something that could be mistaken for a goal of the game, but at least there's an incentive to experiment, think in a "sandbox" way.

NPEISDRIP

Phoenix Jones
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2015-02-20 11:33:58 UTC
I'm going to post an article link. The point isn't the alod, it's the conversation.

http://www.themittani.com/news/alod-poor-little-rich-guy

People joining eve are still thinking in tank, dps, healer terminologies. You may want to address that in someway in the tutorial, because in this case, it came down to the interviewer of the article to teach the person the basics.

Yaay!!!!

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#119 - 2015-02-20 11:40:58 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:

- Destroy a POCO
- Destroy a POS
- Kill an opponent in solo PVP (so you are the only person on the killmail)
- Kill two opponents in solo PVP within a minute of each other
- Destroy a sovereignty structure


Those aren't opportunities, those are achievements. And personally I'm not sure if I want to see actual achievements in the game.



They are medium term goals, not 'achievements' in the WOW sense. (I did play that game, and understand the role they play there).

They are tasks that are beyond a rookie (although the single solo PVP kill is doable). But they are goals that seem within reach.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Dalloway Jones
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2015-02-20 11:45:06 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
You need to have rewards, particularly if you are getting rid of the old tutorial system.

The current system sets new players up with:

  • A destroyer
  • Two industrial ships
  • Two mining frigates
  • One of each kind of T1 combat frigate
  • A variety of modules
  • Skill books to use all of the above.
  • Around 300k isk


That is a fortune to a new player. Don't take it away.



But they aren't taking it away. At least I don't think so. Can we get some clarification on this? The rewards that you have listed are not part of the NPE. They come from the careers tutorial agents. It sounds as if that isn't changing (though I think it needs to be looked at again soon).

This new player experience is replacing the old one where Aura has you go out and find a ship and do a few simple missions and you end up getting your certificate and looking at the fleet of your players ships. She then sends you to the career agents which apparently have not changed.