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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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Author
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#901 - 2015-02-16 11:44:53 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, now that's just hyperbole. I really don't think anyone is talking about the kind of consequences that cut your hitpoints in half for the rest of your character's life.

I was using an extreme example to demonstrate why something being a choice to customize your character didn't inherently make that a good design.

Although, replace "hitpoints" for "skill points" and you've almost described the attribute system. :)

Quote:
Attributes are meh. Yep.

Implants are not. They are a meaningful choice, and encourage decision making based on risk vs reward. (just because some people choose wrong and handcuff themselves is not reason to scrap that whole system)

While I wouldn't want to paint my game design colleagues into a corner, I don't believe that implants are going anywhere. Only learning implants are in question.

There have been suggestions in this thread and elsewhere that learning implants with flat learning speed bonuses might work in an attribute-free world. I think replacing learning speed implants with alternatives that encourage rather than discourage undocking is more likely, but I don't think anyone has yet come to any conclusions about what form that might take.

If you have any thoughts on what alternative implant designs that do not affect training might feel as interesting as those that affect training rate, please share them. (Not that you'd necessarily pick them over learning implants in a head-to-head choice, but that you'd look at them and think "Wow, I'd like to undock with that plugged in.")

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#902 - 2015-02-16 11:51:27 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

If you have any thoughts on what alternative implant designs that do not affect training might feel as interesting as those that affect training rate, please share them. (Not that you'd necessarily pick them over learning implants in a head-to-head choice, but that you'd look at them and think "Wow, I'd like to undock with that plugged in.")


Before I go off on this, I'm curious, why is "willing to undock with them" the criteria here?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#903 - 2015-02-16 11:52:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Baneken wrote:

Remove the implants and nr1 one travel choice of travel in eve will be 'pod express', I know that if my choice is 'pod express' or jumping 30j in clone that has no implants nor expensive ship to be left behind it's 'pod express' every single time, no exceptions.


That's actually a very good point - with the removal of clone costs, and a following removal of learning implants, is there really any point to the whole pod-thing at all anymore? Might as well set an optional flag to auto-self-destruct the pod on ship destruction with no self-destruct timer since there is no point having the pod anymore. You are not protecting implants, you are not saving isk by avoiding the clone cost (literally, both things I have slowboated a pod home to do in the past which I wont need to anymore). You are just waiting two minutes til the self-destruct timer ticks down, hoping someone will shoot you first and save you the time (which they wont, for with valueless pods, its funnier to make the owner sit out the timer). Hilariously, we are creating another non-choice (do I try and get this pod home or not? why would you, you are just wasting time).

And sorry, I just don't buy the whole "well, you will have them filled with hardwires instead". Sorry, you wont. People just don't fly with Hardwires as much as they do learning implants (you can see this just by looking at any killboard anywhere), they'll just save the isk instead - Super pilots notwithstanding of course, but if a bunch of Supers go down they'll be ten bubbles deep so the pod isn't getting home anyway.

EDIT - Actually, this post has just made me realise something else we'll lose. In a valueless pod world, where self-destruct is the only logical choice after a ship loss, that tense minute of trying to crawl your way out of a bubble field as a fight rages on past you, and that long lonely flight home (and the flipside, the amusing sight of seeing a random pod-fleet go scooting by to let you know something interesting just happened somewhere) is gone. That's a little sad.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#904 - 2015-02-16 12:04:10 UTC
Let's remember who we're talking about here. The group who are still stuck in the Intel Mem / Per Will support skill rut. This is a group of players who don't understand that armor repairs are free if they use a local repair module at the undock, rather than paying for in-station repair services after every mission. A few years ago, I met a rookie flying a Navy Raven with CN gear, who couldn't figure out how to come out of missions with a profit after paying for armor repairs. I was a bit envious of their gameplay, for making use of station repairs and taking them so seriously, but if they are to be helped by changes to make things smoother, it would look like standardized attributes at a minimum.

And free station repairs for anything not heat-related. I don't see why not, since the only people who use them are the uninformed, and repairs to armor and hull are free with modules. Shields could also use a button to request repairs, instead of letting this depth of gameplay fall through the cracks. (apparently rookies like that sort of thing).

A bit ago I mentioned I don't have these types of problems, and the hard decisions of Intel Mem or Per Wil. Looking at it from the perspective of someone who does, I'd say yeah it sucks, and it's unusual when it comes to game design.

There's something called Principle of Least Astonishment. It's a UI term, but I think it applies here. If it takes too long to figure out, or something looks unusual enough, after a certain point it simply qualifies as bad design. For being confusing or confounding.

I'll give it to EVE for being different, but attributes are just awkward. And why is the time limit a year, anyway. Another compromise aside from the ones already discussed would be more frequent remaps. Once a month, perhaps. I think that's fitting because it coincides with a unit of subscription (1 month).
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#905 - 2015-02-16 12:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:

If you have any thoughts on what alternative implant designs that do not affect training might feel as interesting as those that affect training rate, please share them. (Not that you'd necessarily pick them over learning implants in a head-to-head choice, but that you'd look at them and think "Wow, I'd like to undock with that plugged in.")


Before I go off on this, I'm curious, why is "willing to undock with them" the criteria here?

The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.

Quote:
People just don't fly with Hardwires as much as they do learning implants (you can see this just by looking at any killboard anywhere)

Implants can be almost anything you can think up, they don't have to be constrained to what's in the game now. Don't you think that's more a matter of an unfavorable cost vs. benefit tradeoff than something inherent about combat implants at all?

Remember that implants mostly come from the LP market, and can be as cheap or as costly (or as weak or as powerful) as makes sense from a game design standpoint.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#906 - 2015-02-16 12:20:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Seems to me that for a DEV who keeps repeating he has no part in the game design process regarding the subject, you sure are involved in this and seem to have facts on how "things are". Why aren't any of the DEVS who ARE responsible for this reacting here?


Personal bias showcasing as company policy?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#907 - 2015-02-16 12:21:13 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:

If you have any thoughts on what alternative implant designs that do not affect training might feel as interesting as those that affect training rate, please share them. (Not that you'd necessarily pick them over learning implants in a head-to-head choice, but that you'd look at them and think "Wow, I'd like to undock with that plugged in.")


Before I go off on this, I'm curious, why is "willing to undock with them" the criteria here?


The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.


So your goal is to remove the fear of loss?

If that's the case, it's fairly tricky do so such a thing without also removing the meaningful choice of the mechanic, and trivializing it. You'd end up just removing any and everything that doesn't have an inherent combat or other statistical benefit.

Which honestly I think is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Now, if you want to make people more interested in actually getting out there and fighting with them, a potential avenue could be to attack their cost.

But whether you remove learning implants or slash their cost, you've basically committed to dealing a big hit to the value of LP throughout the game as well.

Ah, the perils of interconnected systems. I'll be back with a more concrete answer once I've mulled it over some more, but it's a lot to think about.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#908 - 2015-02-16 12:22:44 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

Quote:
People just don't fly with Hardwires as much as they do learning implants (you can see this just by looking at any killboard anywhere)

Implants can be almost anything you can think up, they don't have to be constrained to what's in the game now. Don't you think that's more a matter of an unfavorable cost vs. benefit tradeoff than something inherent about combat implants at all?


Ultimately, you'll know this better than I - I would assume you have statistics you could easily find to see how much of what gets destroyed. Granted, as "combat" 1-5 slot Implants share slots with Learning ones, its hard to get a feel how much they would be used more if Learning ones were gone, but Hardwirings don't, so it should be fairly trivial to datamine how much people use and lose those things in comparison. Even the high-use hardirings (which I would guess would be fitting Implants) probably get lost by several orders of magnitude less than Learning Implants, and the damage ones (what you would probably consider a fairly highly-desired Implant type for someone with money to burn for performance), even less so than those.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#909 - 2015-02-16 12:27:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Gregor Parud wrote:
Seems to me that for a DEV who keeps repeating he has no part in the game design process regarding the subject, you sure are involved in this and seem to have facts on how "things are". Why aren't any of the DEVS who ARE responsible for this reacting here?


Personal bias showcasing as company policy?


Frankly, although I don't agree with Darwins stance at all on this subject, I definitely appreciate Dev interaction in what is clearly a highly-emotive subject. I feel its helped keep the thread on track, and the talking points from both sides focused and clear. So, no, I strongly disagree with his stance, but I'm thankful to hear it, since I would assume he wouldn't be able to be quite so candid if the discussion wasn't in the general ballpark of what's being looked at (since rightly or wrongly, people are going to see the party-line in his arguements, simple because he'll probably have heard it around the office), and its kinda helpful to see what parts of the subject we have potential to influence here (the impression I get is Attributes are gone whatever we discuss, but Learning Implants are still teetering on the abyss).
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#910 - 2015-02-16 12:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Seems to me that for a DEV who keeps repeating he has no part in the game design process regarding the subject, you sure are involved in this and seem to have facts on how "things are". Why aren't any of the DEVS who ARE responsible for this reacting here?


Personal bias showcasing as company policy?


Frankly, although I don't agree with Darwins stance at all on this subject, I definitely appreciate Dev interaction in what is clearly a highly-emotive subject. I feel its helped keep the thread on track, and the talking points from both sides focused and clear. So, no, I strongly disagree with his stance, but I'm thankful to hear it, since I would assume he wouldn't be able to be quite so candid if the discussion wasn't in the general ballpark of what's being looked at, and its kinda helpful to see what parts of the subject we have potential to influence here (the impression I get is Attributes are gone whatever we discuss, but Learning Implants are still teetering on the abyss).


His expertise is elsewhere and, as he keeps stating, he has no say on the subject. So is he stating his own opinion? Company policy? Brainstormed ideas? And why isn't anyone who IS involved replying?

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he shouldn't (as if my opinion on that would matter) but I'd like to know who I'm talking to. The person CCP Darwin, CCP as a company or someone relaying between the responsible Devs and us?
Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#911 - 2015-02-16 12:34:02 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Baneken wrote:

Remove the implants and nr1 one travel choice of travel in eve will be 'pod express', I know that if my choice is 'pod express' or jumping 30j in clone that has no implants nor expensive ship to be left behind it's 'pod express' every single time, no exceptions.


That's actually a very good point - with the removal of clone costs, and a following removal of learning implants, is there really any point to the whole pod-thing at all anymore? Might as well set an optional flag to auto-self-destruct the pod on ship destruction with no self-destruct timer since there is no point having the pod anymore. You are not protecting implants, you are not saving isk by avoiding the clone cost (literally, both things I have slowboated a pod home to do in the past which I wont need to anymore). You are just waiting two minutes til the self-destruct timer ticks down, hoping someone will shoot you first and save you the time (which they wont, for with valueless pods, its funnier to make the owner sit out the timer). Hilariously, we are creating another non-choice (do I try and get this pod home or not? why would you, you are just wasting time).

And sorry, I just don't buy the whole "well, you will have them filled with hardwires instead". Sorry, you wont. People just don't fly with Hardwires as much as they do learning implants (you can see this just by looking at any killboard anywhere), they'll just save the isk instead - Super pilots notwithstanding of course, but if a bunch of Supers go down they'll be ten bubbles deep so the pod isn't getting home anyway.

EDIT - Actually, this post has just made me realise something else we'll lose. In a valueless pod world, where self-destruct is the only logical choice after a ship loss, that tense minute of trying to crawl your way out of a bubble field as a fight rages on past you, and that long lonely flight home (and the flipside, the amusing sight of seeing a random pod-fleet go scooting by to let you know something interesting just happened somewhere) is gone. That's a little sad.


that's what happens when corporates get in to a game and start messing with stuff to get numbners up by making it more attractive ... and don't realising by changing it away from it's core will make it less attractive to it's current players and change it into a WOW in space.

The Clone scrap was the thin edge of the wedge ... it's only down hill from here. Pods have already become near to pointless now. And thus the Crux of the EVE Lore is washed away, or sold out.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"

Leannor
State War Academy
Caldari State
#912 - 2015-02-16 12:41:58 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

If you have any thoughts on what alternative implant designs that do not affect training might feel as interesting as those that affect training rate, please share them. (Not that you'd necessarily pick them over learning implants in a head-to-head choice, but that you'd look at them and think "Wow, I'd like to undock with that plugged in.")


Don't these already exist? Learning implants that are paired with boosts to armour, sheild, etc etc.

There are two things that will encourgae you to undock. (re clone / SP / implants)

1) Push
2) Pull

The push will be a thing that makes your current position bad. Ie, with implants in your head you actually have a detrimental effect from them, until you undock.

The Pull will be where the implant only works outside, or works better outside, or is only 'useful' outside (ie in combat).

These can be mixed and matched as desire likes.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"

CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#913 - 2015-02-16 12:45:20 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Seems to me that for a DEV who keeps repeating he has no part in the game design process regarding the subject, you sure are involved in this and seem to have facts on how "things are". Why aren't any of the DEVS who ARE responsible for this reacting here?


Personal bias showcasing as company policy?


I just find the topic interesting, and the designers on the team are looking at the thread.

I'm offering ideas to provoke interesting discussion, but even if I were personally biased (and I don't believe I am, since I eagerly listen to and think about contrary arguments), you can be secure that I'm not the one choosing what gets implemented in the game from all of this.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#914 - 2015-02-16 12:51:17 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Seems to me that for a DEV who keeps repeating he has no part in the game design process regarding the subject, you sure are involved in this and seem to have facts on how "things are". Why aren't any of the DEVS who ARE responsible for this reacting here?


Personal bias showcasing as company policy?


I just find the topic interesting, and the designers on the team are looking at the thread.

I'm offering ideas to provoke interesting discussion, but even if I were personally biased (and I don't believe I am, since I eagerly listen to and think about contrary arguments), you can be secure that I'm not the one choosing what gets implemented in the game from all of this.


Technically that makes you a troll, using the CCP banner to make it, somehow, official.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#915 - 2015-02-16 12:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
wat. anyway.

CCP Darwin wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Seems to me that for a DEV who keeps repeating he has no part in the game design process regarding the subject, you sure are involved in this and seem to have facts on how "things are". Why aren't any of the DEVS who ARE responsible for this reacting here?


Personal bias showcasing as company policy?


I just find the topic interesting, and the designers on the team are looking at the thread.

why are they not talking?
Kiandoshia
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#916 - 2015-02-16 13:20:43 UTC
Because as soon as they say one word, everybody is going to jump to the best conclusion that starts the next pointless argument =p
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#917 - 2015-02-16 14:01:52 UTC
Kiandoshia wrote:
Because as soon as they say one word, everybody is going to jump to the best conclusion that starts the next pointless argument =p


You mean like is happening in this thread with Darwin?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#918 - 2015-02-16 14:09:07 UTC
Whenever I see someone posting with a righteous or indignant tone I assume it's a dev posting on an alt.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#919 - 2015-02-16 14:20:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Rain6637 wrote:
Whenever I see someone posting with a righteous or indignant tone I assume it's a dev posting on an alt.


That's aimed at me?

Uhm nope. Would have been better for the game but not the case. But I do think it's hilarious.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#920 - 2015-02-16 14:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
lol. no, not you. but come to think of it, maybe CCP Darwin should start posting on an alt for his own sake.

don't use a character with the same born date as CCP Darwin, like CCP Veritas did with IIshira. or we'll find you.