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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

First post First post
Author
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#461 - 2015-02-02 00:42:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Haven't seen this specific combination suggested yet, but what I would like to see is the removal of remaps and set all base attrs to a fixed val under the hood. I agree that the complexity here is not really "good" gameplay content for newbs and vets alike, just annoyance.

However, leave the impact of attrs in place and leave the +2/3/4 effect for low/mid/high grade sets to give people incentive and reward for using those nice juicy high-grade sets and letting newbs have a sense of progression with them.

Finally, take the existing learning implants and repurpose them into low/mid/high grade sets with generic fitting bonuses (basically +cpu and +pg), like the Genolution sets do now. Having fitting implants as a pirate set gives newbs a way to offset their skill deficit. As they get their core fitting skills trained up they can start replacing this set with the other more special purpose sets.

The benefit of this change is that you no longer have any incentive to stay only in a +5 clone. You might decide between low/mid/high based on safety, but at no point are you using a non-combat set. The best you can do is the +4 of a high-grade so you might as well pick a pirate set that works for you (with the new fitting pirate set being a nice default option for many generic cases and newbs).

Leave hardwirings exact as they are now.

And big +1 to no-cooldown JC swapping when in the same station.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#462 - 2015-02-02 04:32:48 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Haven't seen this specific combination suggested yet, but what I would like to see is the removal of remaps and set all base attrs to a fixed val under the hood. I agree that the complexity here is not really "good" gameplay content for newbs and vets alike, just annoyance.

However, leave the impact of attrs in place and leave the +2/3/4 effect for low/mid/high grade sets to give people incentive and reward for using those nice juicy high-grade sets and letting newbs have a sense of progression with them.

Finally, take the existing learning implants and repurpose them into low/mid/high grade sets with generic fitting bonuses (basically +cpu and +pg), like the Genolution sets do now. Having fitting implants as a pirate set gives newbs a way to offset their skill deficit. As they get their core fitting skills trained up they can start replacing this set with the other more special purpose sets.

The benefit of this change is that you no longer have any incentive to stay only in a +5 clone. You might decide between low/mid/high based on safety, but at no point are you using a non-combat set. The best you can do is the +4 of a high-grade so you might as well pick a pirate set that works for you (with the new fitting pirate set being a nice default option for many generic cases and newbs).

Leave hardwirings exact as they are now.

And big +1 to no-cooldown JC swapping when in the same station.


Not sure how I feel about the exact numbers but replacing the learning implants with fitting implants is not a bad idea. It would be very useful for new-to-mid players... though there's some chance of imbalanced new builds arising.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Ben Ishikela
#463 - 2015-02-02 06:21:26 UTC
let me tell you how i did it when nooby:
I wanted to explore the rich industry and markets, so i remapped to charisma and intelligence. (aweful remap). Then i remapped to intelligence/memory, because i needed fitting room in my ships to use the suggested ones for pvp. I wanted to do PVP because there was the cooperation i desired. But i could not fit into the Ships. I could not fly combat. So i was stuck with electronic warfare before i even understood how to use them.
So somehow, even when i had the choices to train slowly for combat, it did not feel that way, because i did a dumb choice in the past. This remapping stuff kept me from exploring the game. Well no, it hindered me and made me slower.
=> Suggestion: no Attributes, no Remapping.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Ben Ishikela
#464 - 2015-02-02 06:22:14 UTC
As for the Training Speed:
I usually asses the probabiliy of loosing the pod for what i expect to do in the next day. Then i calculate what i earn in isk per time. And then i invest into my pod. So i would use hardwiring, when the attributes are gone. Maybe even more than now.
For me it "feels" like less possible error and more meaningful choice. Also less "work" for reattaching the right implants to the right skills. So maybe just straight +1%->+5% trainSpeedImplants (no matter attributes) would do it for me. But at the same time, trainspeedimplants are boring as mentioned/explained above several times by sb.else.
=> suggestion: +% trainSpeed-B O O S T E R (wears off on death of course) as replacement of attributeImplants.
That way, they are consumed already and even +5s decrease in value the more they reach wearoff. So once in a while they do not hinder pvp as much. Also, we still have the far future trainFaster-choice intact that seems vital to some players. Also there might be more use in pirate-implants as they no longer block each other, which will be interesting, but more of my thoughts on that below.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Ben Ishikela
#465 - 2015-02-02 06:23:05 UTC
On Hardwires:
Story: I was on an exploration trip to earn some isk alone. I scouted a c3WH from a Lowsec connection. I found a Curse sitting on a wormhole. I wanted to gank it and loot it to earn some more. So i asked around in corp if anyone could help me kill a curse. 30 people online, 20 nonafk, 10 were excited and were idle at that moment. So when they formed up and ready to go someone asked where it was exactly and i told them: "in 20km below that wormhole inside the C3", 8 of them said they would not go into there because they did not want to loose their expensive implant set. So there were 3 of us left and we could not do it. So thats why i do not like expensive pod-pilots. It makes players unflexible, but its their choice of course.
Someone wrote earlier, hardwirings and non-attribute-implants are good to encourage action. But i say they make you less open to new and therefor risky endevours. Of course they are good to prepare for a certain purpose and are a great tool for the +1%-better-in-pvp-meta-game.
=> Suggestion: make PODs and their implants refitteable in stations/other with a med-bay. This facility lost a big purpose on the well received removal of Medical-Clones. Lets make it meaningful again by inventing surgery.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Ben Ishikela
#466 - 2015-02-02 06:24:37 UTC
=> optional&interesting&funny: Implants use "BioStability"(=Calibration). If the implants exceed a certain stable level, there will be "interesing" effects. Also make it possible to equip a bomb to your Pod (use much biostab). If you are in your Pod, there is a button to activate it, if you do: suicide-attack! (only because it fits to the actual RL terrorist meta)

Thanks for reading. However this is just for inspiration. Nothing serious Cool

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Ben Ishikela
#467 - 2015-02-02 06:34:05 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:

Finally, take the existing learning implants and repurpose them into low/mid/high grade sets with generic fitting bonuses (basically +cpu and +pg), like the Genolution sets do now. Having fitting implants as a pirate set gives newbs a way to offset their skill deficit. As they get their core fitting skills trained up they can start replacing this set with the other more special purpose sets.

The benefit of this change is that you no longer have any incentive to stay only in a +5 clone. You might decide between low/mid/high based on safety, but at no point are you using a non-combat set. The best you can do is the +4 of a high-grade so you might as well pick a pirate set that works for you (with the new fitting pirate set being a nice default option for many generic cases and newbs).

or that instead of trainboosters. implants with a +2%/3%/4% boost to train-speed.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Josef Djugashvilis
#468 - 2015-02-02 07:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Diemos Hiaraki wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Am I the only one who is sick and tired of, 'but think about the noobs'?

We were all noobs once, we learned a bit, made some mistakes, learned some more, made more mistakes etc.

If Eve was so easy for noobs to grasp and understand in its entirety very quickly, I dare say most of us here would quit.


When you started there was only a few years to catch up on, not a decade. I do appreciate where you are coming from, but still your character is nearly eight years old so....am I the only one who thinks what you've just said is really conceited?


Due to real life stuff, four years actual playtime, so I am hardly speaking as a bitter vet with zillions of skill points.

Even if we all train at the same speed from, say the 1st of March, new players can never catch up with older players.

I have always used +3s because it was a decision I made. To remove the ability of players to make personal choices in the game tends to be a bad thing.

This is not a signature.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#469 - 2015-02-02 08:34:43 UTC
Ben Ishikela wrote:
=> Suggestion: no Attributes, no Remapping.

Attributes, remapping but one per month.
Ben Ishikela wrote:
=> suggestion: +% trainSpeed-B O O S T E R (wears off on death of course) as replacement of attributeImplants.
That way, they are consumed already and even +5s decrease in value the more they reach wearoff. So once in a while they do not hinder pvp as much. Also, we still have the far future trainFaster-choice intact that seems vital to some players. Also there might be more use in pirate-implants as they no longer block each other, which will be interesting, but more of my thoughts on that below.

It will work exactly as learning implants. Ppl will be scare to lose boosters.
Ben Ishikela wrote:
=> Suggestion: make PODs and their implants refitteable in stations/other with a med-bay. This facility lost a big purpose on the well received removal of Medical-Clones. Lets make it meaningful again by inventing surgery.

I would rather suggest having more than one clone at station with shorter cd on them, but only with same station clone switching.

Switching learning implants to hardwires solves nothing ppl still won't pvp because they will be scared to lose them.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Amanda Compton
PIXEL Corp
#470 - 2015-02-02 08:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Compton
all my toons are with +5
thats being said i do null sec pvp heavly with them
and i accept the risk i get when losing the ship and trying to save the pod and the implants .
now if u delete the learning implants what gives me a headstart on every1 else since i wanna risk more ?

honestly if my trainning get damped to be the same as any other player that will be the last nail in the coffen

i spent hours planning a perfect skill plan ( not considering the 300mills i pay when losing my pod(thats two +5 implants and 5 +3% skill hardwairing for my main) ) just to make sure i get that extra 90sp/hour over the rest of players to catch up with high sp pilots and now there is rumors of removing that .


CCP , please go **** with something else delete all the ships i dont care just dont touch skill training
and if u do touch skill training what will prevent u from making sp gaining an active thing like wow or other ****** mmo
Leannor
BlackWatch Industrial Group
Reckless Contingency.
#471 - 2015-02-02 10:59:01 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

Switching learning implants to hardwires solves nothing ppl still won't pvp because they will be scared to lose them.

On the whole, that's just horse****.

There are tonnes of PVPers in 0.0 every day. You saying none, not even a significant minority (which would be thousands), have implants?

If people I know are anything to go by, even the most caustious and frugal have the basic implant sets. And rightly so ... there are levels of implants to suit newbies as well as vet's. PVP adverse will alwasy be PVP adverse, implants are just the latest fashionable excuse.

"Lykouleon wrote:

STOP TOUCHING ICONIC SHIP PARTS"

Reha Hope
Doomheim
#472 - 2015-02-02 11:55:56 UTC
It's almost like ccp wants to get rid of the learning system and switch to a XP base system and the way they been leaning the past few years it would not surprise me at all. The sandbox is slowly disappearing it is not the Implants that are keeping folks from 0.0 and pvp it is the players/ powerblocks/ insert name here/ . I have seen a lot of changes over the years and eve is getting smaller and smaller ....

April 23 2004 and hope to play 11 more years.

Its a game guys let's make it fun... Its all up to the player base not CCP

" Change is inevitable ....except from Vending machines "
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#473 - 2015-02-02 12:28:36 UTC
Reha Hope wrote:
It's almost like ccp wants to get rid of the learning system and switch to a XP base system and the way they been leaning the past few years it would not surprise me at all.

That would be disaster, EvE have unique learning system.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Sir Substance
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2015-02-02 13:58:52 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Reha Hope wrote:
It's almost like ccp wants to get rid of the learning system and switch to a XP base system and the way they been leaning the past few years it would not surprise me at all.

That would be disaster, EvE have unique learning system.


I wouldn't worry about that:

a) It's already been tried, during beta IIRC. People orbited asteroids for hours shooting them with pulse lasers to level up their laser skill while they were at work.

b) An XP-for-Rats system doesn't work, because ratting is not a primary activity in this game.

c) given the problems they are already having with dogma, re-writing it to work on an XP based system would be a nightmare.

Seriously, if CCP is considering moving the game to an XP system, they are considering moving to Eve 2. The re-write would be so extensive they might as well just throw everything out and start from scratch. Seagull is not that stupid.

The beatings will continue until posting improves. -Magnus Cortex

Official Eve Online changelist: Togglable PvP. - Jordanna Bauer

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#475 - 2015-02-02 14:09:55 UTC
Sir Substance wrote:
Seriously, if CCP is considering moving the game to an XP system, they are considering moving to Eve 2. The re-write would be so extensive they might as well just throw everything out and start from scratch. Seagull is not that stupid.

Current system if overcomplicated because ppl still thinks that they will get substantial boost if they have implants pluged in. Something that is addon to the game become must have in their eyes. I don't think one remap per year is a good thing. I want to play the game not make business plan for one/two years ahead.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Raymond Moons
Parallactic Veil
#476 - 2015-02-02 14:40:17 UTC
I like the idea of a training speed Booster pill. If it had a max duration of 24 hours (with the booster duration skill at 5) it would encourage people to log in every day to keep their SP gain up. The side effects could be a chance of -1 (scaled to implant) to one or more attributes. Which also slows training in some skills. So if you want the +5 pill you also have the most risk of getting a temporary attribute nerf.

To encourage the use of pirate sets why not set the learning pills to be a replacement for the set implant. So the +5 pill is also the high-grade omega implant set booster.

A synth skill booster could be awarded to noobs in the turorial and would not only show them that they can get a training bonus from pills but also introduce them to the other performance boosters. Since boosters are temporary I'd expect them to cost less for a single pill and would represent less isk loss in one go if podded. The pills could have a material cost that makes them cost the same as a full set of the current learning implants for a years supply. Plus you could time your consumption around your typical PvP play times anyway.

Also encouraging drug use is so very bad ass, and so very Eve!

One final thought with attributes. We all pick a race and a bloodline and a trade. If we are removing remapping and have default attributes why don't we make it so that we get skill category bonusses? For example Caldari can train shields and missiles slightly faster, Minmatar can train navigation and projectiles slightly faster etc. At the moment apart from the inital skill set given to new characters it makes absolutely no difference what you choose at character creation. It used to be your choice gave you fixed attributes that you could mitigate somewhat by the learning skills. Since that is no longer the case I think there should be some other permanent outcome to our choice.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#477 - 2015-02-02 15:58:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiloh Templeton
I like training implants -- they make for choices. I don't think it affects my PvP activites very much - I've built up a set of clones so I can swap out if needed. Also training implants make some good game play/isk in LP & market activities.

I just want CCP to change the remap to being based on birthdays instead of one year since last remap. And let the remaps be accrued if not used.
Temba Mapindazi
#478 - 2015-02-02 16:28:25 UTC
People who do not want to pvp will find another reason beyond implants if you take them away.

EVE is a unique experience as it currently exists, I want it to evolve not to devolve into another run of the mill game.

Dev's please tread carefully when making this game simpler, part of it's appeal is that it is also a thinking person's game. You can be a mindless drone in a swarm gate camping or fighting sov wars for your masters if you do not want to think much or you can do market stuff, build stuff, and work in a powerful corp that explores everywhere.

EVE is not one size fits all, be careful going down that road.

A combat pilot must have two goals to survive,  #1 get the first shot in every fight , #2 get the last shot in every fight!

Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#479 - 2015-02-02 17:47:14 UTC
It just occurred to me: Could this change be a stepping stone towards the implant and clone systems that will exist with Legion and Valkyrie? What if learning implants are incompatible with those games, and CCP is looking to create an even playing field for layers who elect to bounce between game genres?

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#480 - 2015-02-02 17:56:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Learning implants are fine. You don't need them and losing them is just risk vs reward at work.


Not "needing" something is not the same as saying that not using them won't impair your competitiveness and that you will definitely won't lose the only arms race that matters: sp.

People saying sp doesn't matter don't seem to recall the early days. Yeah you can take a catalyst out and gank a freighter or maybe a cruiser if you know what you're doing... but when you're new and stupid you will get murdered because you are playing chicken against luck of the draw on who you fight. This is a game where it actively punishes you for upsizing your ship.

This is a game where frigates do 80% of the dps of some cruisers despite being 10% of the cost. This is a game where you plateau in effectiveness eventually but not before being 37.5% better at the same job as someone just starting out. For any player in the game who doesn't spend every second of every day flying around in wormholes on combat duty the only logical answer is to have 1 clone with a set of +5 inside.

That's not risk vs reward, that's called sound business strategy.