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Crime & Punishment

 
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Announcement From Gorila

First post First post
Author
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#81 - 2014-12-26 00:32:47 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
TL;DR of Kaaroua's opinion

There is a world of difference between "good guys" and good guys.

ForTheEmpire is a good guy. He plays a good guy and has fun fighting HiSec gankers. Alistair Ormund and Veers Belvar are "good guys" as they believe there is a justification for leveling RL threats against players for winning at PvP conflict.


Ehh??? That's a pretty galling claim. Do I think the gankers are bad folks who delight in eliciting tears and rage? Yep. Do I think folks should respond with RL death threats? Nope. And obviously being the cool and collected person that I am, I have certainly never engaged in such churlish behavior. If you want your lies to pass the smell test, it's important to include at least an element of truth in them.

But I notice you are in Brave...so I'll stop wasting my breath. Carry on, sir.
Jennifer en Marland
Shiny Violent Killing Toys
#82 - 2014-12-26 00:42:36 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

You and Jenn should post more often. You two make a good face for your community.


Thanks, I could say the same about you being one of the friendly and likeable CODErs (who are much more common than people realise).

Black Pedro wrote:
My only point (which was made perhaps too sardonically) was that there is some basis to the concerns that the AG channel contains an unhealthy level of toxic expression toward other players,


That's certainly reasonable, I don't like the negativity that crops up in the channel either. And as you allude to a bit later in your post, some of it isn't exactly bannable...but as you can see from the chatlogs, we still try to dissuade people from being too negative. To be totally honest though, isn't it kind of to be expected? People in the channel have been happily mining/missioning/whatever, and suddenly someone blows them up, (perhaps in a way that uses game mechanics they don't understand thanks to CCP's dire new player experience and documentation), and then quite possibly sent them a rude/extortionate message. Even if this hasn't happened to them lately, some people unfortunately still remember how it felt, and keep seeing it happen to other people. I'm not at all condoning the negativity and dislike of gankers, but you can see where it comes from. I'd also like to note that this is the sort of thing that people who gank for tears/trolling/reactions want, so some people's (not necessarily yours) accusations of negativity in AG appear pretty disingenuous imo.

Black Pedro wrote:
not to mention the "banning" of anyone putting forth a less-than-complete opposition to the presence of ganking in the game which I didn't quote.


I can see how it might look like it at first glance, but no. We've grown used to Code alts coming into the channel and pretending to be reasonable people looking for a discussion, when actually they're trolling or looking for a verbal punch-up. Sometimes people are committed supporters of ganking/griefing who want to tell us we're wrong and stick up for their side. Maybe sometimes we make mistakes, and our 'troll-sense' is off; but We certainly do NOT ban people just for not agreeing with us. Which sort of leads to...

Black Pedro wrote:
Then why was my ganker and looting alt that had never spoken a word in AG banned from the channel? Granted this was a while ago, but clearly someone at some point was adding known gankers and thier associates for presumably opsec reasons. Or are all gankers just assumed by the moderators to be boorish trolls by default unworthy of even the chance to say anything? Am I allowed to idle now in the channel on this character now that the ban list has been cleared?


You do seem to be making pejorative assumptions about our motives here. As I stated at the start of my post in my reply to Bebop, we certainly don't assume people are boorish or trolls just because they're gankers. We ban all known gankers and their alts for these reasons, imo: Firstly, people who have recently been ganked look to AG for advice and help after an unpleasant experience they may not understand: If they see there are gankers talking in the channel, possibly the very people who just killed them and then maybe sent a trollmail to them, they're going to be pretty confused and unhappy about it, and understandably so. And secondly: wouldnt it just be a little bit strange and awkward if the anti-ganking community was full of gankers? Blink Seriously though, theres definitely dialogue to be had between gankers and counter-gankers, but our channel isn't the place for it. And thirdly, yes there is the possibility for gankers spreading disinformation/propaganda etc - not necessarily trolling, just metagaming against us. Either way, being pre-emptively isn't any kind of a personal insult against anyone.

Army of dolls stole all your perfect imperfections.

Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
#83 - 2014-12-26 01:15:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyyler DURden wrote:

What about sarcastic accusations of real-life domestic violence? Would that kind of thing be considered bad taste?
I was just asking because I seem to recall reading some of that at www.minerbumping.com. (it gets linked quite often in local)
So does the supreme leader get a pass or should that be considered part of the no "buts", no extenuating circumstances that you were referring to?

In case you missed it its in the practicle examples section of the code.


And once again you demonstrate the problem here.

Sarcasm does not equate to, quoting my latest example, telling someone to "go hang yourself in front of an elementary school". Or any of the other innumerable vile things so routinely spouted by the "good guys".

It should be obvious.

Ok, Kaarous. Lets try this.
In my mind, stereotyping miners as wife beaters and domestic abusers is pretty much the same thing as saying all gankers are sociopaths and bullys.
Would you agree?

Tyyler DURden says "use soap"

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#84 - 2014-12-26 01:20:51 UTC
Tyyler DURden wrote:

Ok, Kaarous. Lets try this.
In my mind, stereotyping miners as wife beaters and domestic abusers is pretty much the same thing as saying all gankers are sociopaths and bullys.
Would you agree?


It's true, he really doesn't get the difference.

One is tongue in cheek, and intended for humor.

One is vitriolic, hateful accusation used against people who beat you in a videogame.

Get it yet?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tyyler DURden
Mordechai and Sons Distribution Co.
#85 - 2014-12-26 02:33:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tyyler DURden wrote:

Ok, Kaarous. Lets try this.
In my mind, stereotyping miners as wife beaters and domestic abusers is pretty much the same thing as saying all gankers are sociopaths and bullys.
Would you agree?


It's true, he really doesn't get the difference.

One is tongue in cheek, and intended for humor.

One is vitriolic, hateful accusation used against people who beat you in a videogame.

Get it yet?


Wow!! You being the dedicated forum warrior that you are, I never expected you to bite on that one.
So making jokes about domestic violence is perfectly ok if it's "tongue in cheek".
Your response isnt surprising to anyone who's familiar with your posting history.
Continue keeping it classy Kaarous.

Tyyler DURden says "use soap"

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#86 - 2014-12-26 02:44:57 UTC
Tyyler DURden wrote:

Continue keeping it classy Kaarous.


Says the guy rushing to the defense of people threatening someone's life over a gank in a videogame? Looks like I'm in good company.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#87 - 2014-12-26 03:45:32 UTC
ForTheEmpire2014 wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:

In theory, the deck is stacked towards the miners and miners. The game mechanics favor a competent miner over a competent ganker.

However, tons of miners and haulers act lazy, greedy or dumb, which is why we exist in the first place.


Bingo!

You should personally thank every person you gank, for giving you existence. But that's not going to happen, now is it?

edit.snipped the rest out, its gorila's party...


I have no intention of thanking people for being lazy greedy or dumb. I suspect it would come across as sarcastic anyway.
Sam Spock
The Arnold Connection
#88 - 2014-12-26 04:07:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Sam Spock
Black Pedro wrote:
Sam Spock wrote:
The one thing you always said that I always agreed with was that you opposed what CODE. was doing because they were trying to tell you how to play the game. No one has a right to do that.

Now you have joined those very people. I guess you won't be needing an opinion any more. They will provide one for you. Enjoy the herd.


The New Order isn't really telling you how to play the game - we are playing the game as it was designed. Free your mind and look beyond the text of the Code and see that we are playing the villains in a spaceship video game designed to have villains. New Eden is suppose to have people like us, so if you feel that villains are "trying to tell you how to play the game", perhaps you should take that up with CCP - or just tank your ships and stay at your keyboard.

Take the red pill.

And Gorila, welcome to our side. I trust that you will find that contrary to what Mr. Spock has suggested, you are free to enforce the Code in whatever ways you find most engaging and entertaining. You will see that as long as you are having fun and spaceships are exploding, the Code truly does always win.


I had a rather long response I was going to use for this but decided against it. Don't want to feed the trolls.

My post was for Gorilla so any response except from him is just you trying to justify whatever you want to justify. He was someone who's opinion I valued and even got me to get away from the whole ganking is bullying idea. It's because of this I find what he as done as rather disturbing.

You want to be a scumbag targeting the weakest ships you can find then it is not up to me to tell you you cannot.

Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!

Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
Pandemic Legion
#89 - 2014-12-26 04:35:58 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


As far as "not being safe" or "having fun," consider the real life equivalent of CODE. Someone goes to a beach and spends hours constructing a beautiful sandcastle. A second person arrives and promptly destroys said sandcastle to elicit rage and tears. Guy 2 is having a lot more fun, and demonstrating that sand on the beach is a public good that cannot be acquired. So what? Guy 2 is still a miserable person with no sense of morality or decency. That you have the right to do something does not make it the right thing to do.

I would rather cast my lot with those who play the game to find constructive enjoyment in it, and not simply take pleasure from the rage and tears of others. Highsec suicide ganking contributes virtually nothing to the game. Enough said.


Isnt this no different than walking across a beach, admiring the view, when some guy runs up and shoots you in the head? Surely that is an immoral, indecent thing to do, but yet this happens all the time in video games. It doesnt matter if you play Call of Duty for the graphics, if you join a multiplayer game, you will still be shot in the head by another player.

Is it a psychopathic, evil, immoral, indecent thing to shoot someone in the head, just because they are not on your team, in real life? Yes. Is it wrong to do it in a video game that is designed so that you are not only allowed to, but encouraged to do so? Of course not.

Video games are not real life. You dont go up to people and shoot them in real life. You dont grief and scam people in real life. And yet, this is all perfectly acceptable in video games, where the game is designed to accommodate this sort of behavior.

If you suck at a video game, or dont like an aspect, of course youre going to be miserable. The guy who always goes 0-30-0 in Dota 2 and loses his matches, will be miserable. Clearly this game isnt for him. If you cant handle a scam, if you cant handle a loss, if you cant handle a gank, this game is not for you. If you want to play a game where your ship will never be destroyed, your assets never taken away, Maybe Star Trek Online would be better suited for you.



Not an apt comparison. Suicide ganking is a criminal act and explicitly illegal. It's not comparable to perfectly legal violent acts in other games. Not to mention that in other games dying carries few consequences. In eve a suicide gank can destroy months worth of hard work.


So why arent the players who participate in this explicitly "illegal" activity banned?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#90 - 2014-12-26 04:41:05 UTC
Solonius Rex wrote:


So why arent the players who participate in this explicitly "illegal" activity banned?


For the same reason that RL shoplifters aren't given the death penalty....They suffer consequences from the in-game police and face the shame of their playstyle being labelled as criminal and illegal.
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-12-26 04:43:38 UTC
Intresting perspective and thought I have also had on many occasions


very cool and its nice to have been informed that my premier white knight is actually a codey...Srt owes me 20 bucks Blink

The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be

Solonius Rex
F0RCED ENTRY
Pandemic Legion
#92 - 2014-12-26 05:05:14 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Solonius Rex wrote:


So why arent the players who participate in this explicitly "illegal" activity banned?


For the same reason that RL shoplifters aren't given the death penalty....They suffer consequences from the in-game police and face the shame of their playstyle being labelled as criminal and illegal.


Im talking about why CCP doesnt ban them.

You talk about how its "Illegal", but its only Illegal in the same way that stealing food from the stall in Skyrim is "illegal". If you steal food from a stall in skyrim, you get charged and attacked by the guards. Would you consider it "Wrong" and immoral for someone to steal food in skyrim?
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#93 - 2014-12-26 06:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
Veers Belvar wrote:

As far as "not being safe" or "having fun," consider the real life equivalent of CODE. Someone goes to a beach and spends hours constructing a beautiful sandcastle. A second person arrives and promptly destroys said sandcastle to elicit rage and tears. Guy 2 is having a lot more fun, and demonstrating that sand on the beach is a public good that cannot be acquired. So what? Guy 2 is still a miserable person with no sense of morality or decency. That you have the right to do something does not make it the right thing to do.

I would rather cast my lot with those who play the game to find constructive enjoyment in it, and not simply take pleasure from the rage and tears of others. Highsec suicide ganking contributes virtually nothing to the game. Enough said.

You've pretty much grouped all of us into one category, like as if shooting a ship in high-sec can only be done for two motivations: profit or griefing.

I can safely say I have never extracted a tear before in-game from an innocent victim. If they show good sportsmanship I salute them, if they show confusion I help them. I don't gank as often as most, but when I have it was purely for fun. I enjoy blowing up the ships and I enjoy dealing with how people form up to defend against me.

Is it your opinion that the above makes me a "bad" person?
I'd also like to know how you'd react if someone warped into your mission pocket and claimed you had a mental disorder for running missions.

I won't even touch on the "ganking contributes nothing to the game" part of your post, you know that's not true.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin

thesetears though
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-12-26 06:54:40 UTC
Astecus wrote:

Do these good people include any of the moderators? Because we spent over a year building a block list of around a thousand troublemaking entities, which you wiped clean. Or maybe one of your newly appointed CODE mods did. There is no easy way to rebuild this list. You apologize, but I'm not really convinced you are sorry.



Having to ban 1000 troublemaking entities from your channel isnt telling you something?
Gorila Vengaza
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#95 - 2014-12-26 08:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorila Vengaza
Okay wow. It was Xmas day here in the states so I didn’t turn on my computer until now. I had originally planned to do a last blog post this weekend, but I’d rather take care of what I have to say here and address a few things.

FIRST, For all the tin foil hatters etc. No.. I wasn’t a code spy or any nonsense and I want everyone who reads this to understand something. Eve is a game where you can do ANYTHING you want within the parameters of game mechanics ofc. I played Anti-Code for almost a year. At the very heart of the entire matter it’s simply a CHOICE. I decided to do something else. I JOINED CODE.

Now those of you out there asking “if you wanted to do something else, why not just go to null or wh or whatever. Why join the “enemy”? Here’s my answer and I’ll try and refrain from too much finger pointing.

Over the past year I made friends on both sides. Both AG and CODE have their respective idiots. It’s to be expected, but I found more pilots on CODES side I agreed with and enjoyed playing with. I also had a huge amount of frustration from my role in AG and I’ll give you an example that stands out in my mind. Please note this took place BEFORE ppl like Jenn and Sarah and others started ganking CODE bumpers.

I discovered through various channels that Aria Stane was running supplies for CODE when Burn Aufay was taking place and I attempted to get a fleet together to take out the supply freighter Aria was flying. All of my attempts were met with “We Don’t Gank”. A lot of my attempts were met with those kinds of results so imagine how thrilled I am on my second night of being in CODE when I brought up ganking a White Knight Navy Cane and instantly over comm’s I am told how many Cats we would need and how many pilots are available. I almost wet myself in PURE JOY.

As for Ast’s accusations at me, I’ll say this for the record. I respect Ast for creating Anti-Ganking and creating his site offering ECM fits etc. I wish he did a bit more in game by taking a stance but in the end it’s his choice how he plays. There was frustration on my end with him as I was out hunting and trying to do something about CODE day in and day out and what I saw him doing was working on getting the AG Channel put on Eve Live and testing how many Mining Barges he could run with ISOBOXER.

As for that person Ast mentioned in his post above that has been sending mails? I know who he means. Industrial Mining is a longtime friend of mine and no I don’t agree with what Indy has been doing by sending mails to Ast. But I still stand by Indy’s side for the ORIGINAL incident which angered Indy. That entire mess started because Indy was simply trying to teach and instruct people in AG and he was attacked and kicked for it. I wish I had been able to get involved before Indy fired off his mails as it would have saved everyone a lot of headaches.

I never said it was ONLY the toxicity in AG that bothered me. Yes there are good people in AG who try and MOD the toxicity of some players. I’ve corrected ppl and I’ve seen Jenn and Sarah and others doing the same day in and day out. I don’t think there is an easy answer to that problem.

My purpose in CODE? As I’ve said before I’ve played since 07. As a Noob back in 07 I was podded in Tama and raged at the guy who did it. I was then kicked from corp as the guy I raged at decced the corp I was in. I learned my lesson. I was then taken in by a group of PVPER's and taught things about the game I never knew existed. In All honesty I wish I could go back and thank the guy who podded me as I AFK autopiloted to a gate. I haven’t used Autopilot since that day and I got a better understanding of how the game is played. I hope to pass along what I learned. Its how i was taught to play.

Scott Bacon said he agreed with what I originally said about playing the game however I wanted. What I have seen as an Anti-Ganker has bothered me, I still don’t understand why someone would log in to play a game and then walk away from their computer for hours while the game is running. If they can’t be bothered to be at their keyboard why should they care if their ship explodes? For me that just makes them a target as I am playing the GAME and they are not. Play any way you want, but make sure you’re at your keyboard and actually PLAYING. Also, try something different once in a while, Eve is a vast universe. Had I never been podded as a noob I would probably still be running missions and never seen the REAL side of eve and playing with others.

Veers (as usual) had to bray in with how I only saved 1% of freighters. You can’t save people who are AFK. 1% is still a hellva lot more than Veers has ever done.

Lastly I will say this, the one person in AG I’m very disappointed with is Kalynn. In Kalynn’s last mail to me were threats of petitions if I should respond (which I did ONCE and had to do through a friend)to her while she has sent me mail after mail attacking my character and the personal loss I suffered 6 months ago. I say this to you again Kalynn. As your friend I would have supported however you want to play EVE and wished you luck. Your actions towards me since I joined CODE only add to the toxicity and vile I’ve seen come from certain people in the AG community.

To those who have convo’d or mailed me from both sides and wished me luck, I say thank you. It’s you guys I want to play EVE with.

Happy Holidays Folks
GV
Black Pedro
Mine.
#96 - 2014-12-26 08:39:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Jennifer en Marland wrote:

You do seem to be making pejorative assumptions about our motives here. As I stated at the start of my post in my reply to Bebop, we certainly don't assume people are boorish or trolls just because they're gankers. We ban all known gankers and their alts for these reasons, imo: Firstly, people who have recently been ganked look to AG for advice and help after an unpleasant experience they may not understand: If they see there are gankers talking in the channel, possibly the very people who just killed them and then maybe sent a trollmail to them, they're going to be pretty confused and unhappy about it, and understandably so. And secondly: wouldnt it just be a little bit strange and awkward if the anti-ganking community was full of gankers? Blink Seriously though, theres definitely dialogue to be had between gankers and counter-gankers, but our channel isn't the place for it. And thirdly, yes there is the possibility for gankers spreading disinformation/propaganda etc - not necessarily trolling, just metagaming against us. Either way, being pre-emptively isn't any kind of a personal insult against anyone.


Well, first, it's your channel and you can run it however you'd like. I was actually primarily challenging Sarah Flynt's assertion that it was not for opsec purposes, which you now suggest it is for, at least a little. That is a perfectly fine reason (actually a good reason) to ban known gankers from the channel although pretty ineffective. From my point of view banning idling gankers does seem like a bit of a waste of time as your channel only displays the names of speaking participants so my inactive looting alt will never be seen by new members just joining, and if I do want to troll or even metagame you (which, for the record, I have no interest in doing), I will use just use one of my other alts that I do have idling in the channels. Just banning people when they start trolling seems easier.

However, this policy goes to the other main problem I have with the channel, is the rejection of ideas other than the "gankers are bad" point of view. I understand you don't want the channel to be a place to debate the merits/purpose of ganking in the game, but this sort of feeds the "ganking is bulling" crowd who think it is then ok to demonize other players for engaging in the criminal mini-game coded into Eve on purpose by CCP. Of course I am generalizing a bit, as many (actually, most) of the people in AG don't do this and get that this is just a game and are there to discuss tactics, but being unable to challenge people when they cross the line into personal/hateful attacks for fear of a banning by the moderators as "pro-ganker" makes hanging out there uncomfortable for me.

You could then ask why I do it - primarily for intel and the entertainment value as it can be fun (it's certainly fun to read what is said about you after a successful or even failed gank by the other side) - but I have also, on a few occasions, offered advice to an obvious new player asking questions about game mechanics during quiet times when no one was answering them. But I am reluctant to say anything related to ganking, even if I can offer some advice or explanation, for fear of being accused as a "spy" or worse, a "sociopath", when all I am doing is offering an explanation of game mechanics.

But I can see from your response that this is not your intention with these policies and that you are strongly against personal attacks on other players. Thanks for taking the time to reply, and if I see anything that really crosses the line, I will send you or another moderator a message, although I would kindly ask that if I do that from a "non-ganker" alt that you do not ban them from the channel.
Tasspool Harp
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2014-12-26 08:47:29 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:


I have no intention of thanking people for being lazy greedy or dumb. I suspect it would come across as sarcastic anyway.


My response to the escalation of highsec ganking has been to take my lazy, greedy and dumb miner in a fail-fit retriever to the higher reaches of highsec. It now takes me longer to get replacement ships for forays into lowsec providing content for pirates. On the plus side since I don't have to worry about rats I can spend more time afk or in corp chat. Also im losing ships at a slower rate so my time spent mining is about the same. I do feel somewhat guilty about stripping belts that should be the province of new players but console myself that it is just a consequence of emergent game play and content generation in high sec. To Gorila , I hope you enjoy your FUN and LAUGHs which are coming at the expense of other players' enjoyment of Eve. I just realised I am typing this while the television is on. I better get back to having my eyes glued to the tv screen because heaven forbid that anyone should have a television on but not be watching it constantly.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#98 - 2014-12-26 09:39:25 UTC
Vapor Ventrillian wrote:
Intresting perspective and thought I have also had on many occasions


very cool and its nice to have been informed that my premier white knight is actually a codey...Srt owes me 20 bucks Blink

Yeah, sorry man... Maybe you can recruit Jenn now?

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!

John E Normus
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#99 - 2014-12-26 10:15:18 UTC
I would like to welcome Gorilla Vengaza to the CODE family. He was a good enemy and will be a fine addition to the cause. That said, I would like to dedicate a song to my 2 best girls in eve who don't seem to be talking to me anymore... Cry

♥ Sarah Flynt and Jenn Marland ♥

Between Ignorance and Wisdom

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#100 - 2014-12-26 10:29:23 UTC
John E Normus wrote:
I would like to welcome Gorilla Vengaza to the CODE family. He was a good enemy and will be a fine addition to the cause. That said, I would like to dedicate a song to my 2 best girls in eve who don't seem to be talking to me anymore... Cry

♥ Sarah Flynt and Jenn Marland ♥

Yeah, I had to grab an alt to talk to Jenn. Was a pleasant conversation though.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!