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Update regarding Multiboxing and input automation

First post First post First post
Author
Sheffsam
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1081 - 2014-11-26 06:51:42 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
sniperskitz wrote:
Jita spam ban when?

Also to everyone saying impossible to detect hardware macros and all the else, they will be looking at commands sent to server, if they are too fast and consistent it will be monitored and reviewed.

Just wait for ISBoxer to have a delayed broadcast option

What is the difference between having mouse drivers input F1-F4 with a single button press (also keep in mind that pretty much all hardware macros now support the addition of delays between commands), or yours truly picking up a Tic Tac container from the desk and using it to uniformly press those same keys on the keyboard at once?


I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#1082 - 2014-11-26 06:53:24 UTC
Jibaja wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:


I have 15 accounts, and after this new policy takes effect, I will have absolutely no use for 12 of them. Given that this amounts to what is effectively a permaban for 12 of my accounts, this feels severely punative. I'm sure you can understand how this would be frustrating given that I have always played by the rules.

This puts me and others in a pretty tight spot. I've spent about a year carefully planning and tending to my ISBoxer fleet and it was nearly unbearable to log them in tonight knowing that my creation was about to be pretty much erased. "What you build has value" has been a marketing line in the past, and is what draws many people to EVE. What I've built is about to have no value Sad


There must be some way to follow through with this excellent new direction for EVE without imposing what feels like a severe punishment on players who, though perhaps unpopular, have played by the rules.


So where was it that they said you can't use ISBoxer? i believe you stlil can. you just can't use the broadcast feature unless, as they said is logging in and whatnot.

Actually, where did Carmen say that ISBoxer can't be used?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
#1083 - 2014-11-26 06:57:22 UTC
Sheffsam wrote:
I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.

You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
Requiem Eternal
#1084 - 2014-11-26 06:59:05 UTC
La Doktoro wrote:
Shrug. Honestly in my opinionI don't see much changing.

I mostly use isboxer for the video FX features and windows layouts. so in theory i could easily switch to something like https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246157&find=unread if they did completely ban isboxer


It took me all of hour maybe to switch things tonight to be legit in two different ways one without isboxer and one with

First opinion you can use logitech or whatever software with a gaming pad or keyboard with programmable keys.

example I could of easily set it so 1st time i hit g3 button button on my logitech keyboard it sends as Command to switch to Window 1 + F1 next press switch to Window2 + F1 and on through the list. I could easily press the key 10 times in next to no time. 10 clients 10 key presses it's legal.

the command to switch the windows is happening on your machine not in game and not affecting the in game actions so its legal in my opinion but I can see some fighting the point.

Downsides This means setting up a ton of hot keys but still easy enough.
if you have one of your guys parked(afk cloaking) or not logged in you need to either modify the list or risk uncloaking or have wasted keystrokes.

Second option isboxer, I can make a round robin key with a action target group. each time I press the button it sends my desired key stroke to one character in the group until its sent it to all of them. 10 characters 10 key presses all legit

advantage if a character slot isn't actually running it won't try to send a keystroke to that character. if i want to park them (afk cloaking) somewhere changing the group membership takes next to no time.


Targeting I have always done manually too unreliable im my opinion to automate

I know in logitech you can set a button to ctrl + left MB click at a given screen coordinate so also setup your broadcast windows i the same paces. 10 button pushes 10 locked targets in what 1-2 seconds ?

I expect you can do the same with other vendors software also.

isboxer I can do this several different ways I would prolly go where do like before just add the Video Fx feature

just means it opens a little video fx(think video feed of a given size) around current mouse location so i can see where my mouse is on that character screen click and it sends a ctrl left click 10 key presses and 10 left clicks 10 locked targets
with broadcast windows again you can easily lock targets in a nominal amount of time.

it wouldn't be a pure 100% alpha strike like you can with broadcast targeting however the time difference will be for most part insignificant in my opinion.


Moving around I never move all my guys at once through jumps with broadcast it's stupid and asking for you to lose stuff something is always eventually going to go wrong. So whatever.


If I'm moving around in system use fleet warp and done.


So we've covered targeting, activating modules/weapons and basic movement in legit ways with only the barest of time increases but there is a slight delay


I just don't see how it's going to change very much at all other than to be a way to ban the stupid or lazy folks that don't time to set things up right and legit.

I'm actually more concerned about False positives.

if CCP is relying solely on time delays between clients showing a key press to detect broadcasts thats just not going to work.

I can press one key 10 times in a second easily. thats 0.1 seconds per key press or 100MS and as I showed above that will send the commands i need legitimately.

so I expect CCP is going to include other standards for detecting broadcasts than just time. I also know they'll never tell us what they are and I don't blame them for not telling us either.

because in both solution I listed above you could build in buffer time delays between the key presses of a variable amount
so its never the same amount which can be used to try defeat time detections but frankly im pressing the key 10 times i dont need to add in crazy time delays

That's my only concern about this change is getting tagged as breaking the rules when I'm not.

I give CCP credit for trying to address what they perceive as a issue by the community.

It took courage knowing it was going to **** off a lot of folks and cost them subscriptions because the feeling is this is what the community wants.

But ultimately I don't think It's going to change a thing.

We are all a bunch of crazy inventive people when we choose to be and quit trolling each other.

I'm sure someone has already thought of even better and legit ways of doing things than I listed above too. Multiboxing in this game is worth the effort of thinking up legit solutions so it's not going anywhere.


Yep. also People who think miners going to get stopped can dream :D
Also isb boxer is Nice to use anyway, even if you can use multi Control (Control multiple at 1 time)
And you dont even use it at mining. all you need is something you allready got'etc. fleet Warp.
By the way, thank for giving me the link :)
i going to look at it later :)
MrQuisno
Doomheim
#1085 - 2014-11-26 07:06:38 UTC
Point clear isboxer is not BANNED!!!!

The parts of which you no longer can do with ixboxer is this....

Input Automation
Input Automation refers to actions that are commonly also referred to as botting or macroing. This term is used to describe, but is not limited to, the automation of actions which have consequences in the EVE universe.

Input Broadcasting & Input Multiplexing
Input Broadcasting and Input Multiplexing refer to the multiplication of inputs, actions and events to multiple instances of the game.
Sailor Antimatter
Cat Stable
#1086 - 2014-11-26 07:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sailor Antimatter
Quote:
actions taken that do not have an impact on the EVE universe and are carried out for convenience:

• Window positions and arrangements (of the EVE Online client in your operating system’s desktop environment)

Please implement custom UI layouts for multiboxers so that we can continue to retain interest in the game. I currently multibox with the VideoFX feature of ISBoxer, and it was an ISBoxer video that got me to download and register for EVE. Playing without being able to see the shields and overviews of my characters would wear out the gameplay value.

Powers Sa wrote:
In very very rare occasions I've used it to repeat, but that was a long time ago when naga ratting was a thing. I've mainly used it to manage windows when fcing or scouting.

... My primary occupation in EVE is Naga ratting.
MrQuisno
Doomheim
#1087 - 2014-11-26 07:12:13 UTC
Part which I don't understand what is


What is it in eve that they say about ---> Input Broadcasting & Input Multiplexing

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1088 - 2014-11-26 07:12:36 UTC
My stand on ISBOXER's mirror ability has longtime been for *ease of use* or to excessively use a mechanic in the game that is inherently broken or overpowered. While I do support the removal of isboxer for BOMBing runs and maybe suicide ganking, overall the rest of the uses for it aren't too overpowered. I am worried about the economic inpact with the number of isboxing miners that will probably quit. Mining Sucks, if someone wants to use isboxer to mine it should be fair game.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1089 - 2014-11-26 07:13:10 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sheffsam wrote:
I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.

You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.

no comment. but this is what i was thinking. curious if ISBoxer author will pull the plug on EVE or decide to make ISBoxer smarter, cuz that's all it would take. If you know what ISBoxer is capable of, you'd know there's no way for EVE to detect ISBoxer.

a lot of people need to wake up and smell the coffee. Multiboxing is the best way to play EVE.

the cries about "a multiboxer killed me" are bullshit. when you undock you sign off on whatever you encounter in space.
Sheffsam
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1090 - 2014-11-26 07:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sheffsam
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sheffsam wrote:
I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.

You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.

Indeed, which is why I think short multi-keystroke macros from mice and keyboards to a single client should not be an issue. I'd like CCP to actually clarify this point though, as it seems to be a recurring question in this thread that's not been answered.

Edit: also the worrying specter of false positives is an issue.
MrQuisno
Doomheim
#1091 - 2014-11-26 07:14:35 UTC
Mining is very easy with isboxer even with out the Input Automation. just fleet warp away, just means more clicking...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1092 - 2014-11-26 07:15:58 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
The broad claim that no other activities gain efficiency from multiboxing I have great issue believing. Mainly because of your failure to recognize that the reduction of inputs is an efficiency increase in that it eliminates any input lag accross clients and ensures that each client is fully contributing to whatever task is being done from the moment the player instructs the first client to engage.

Also, as stated the kill trigger is irrelevant in determining if an activity will suffer loss. It can either be done as fast as now or it can't and it's a hard sell that 10 clients in combat won't suffer slower completion times without imput broadcasting.

Let me rephrase that a little bit.

Yes, you do suffer an efficiency loss in other activities. But in comparison to having to deal with CONCORD during a suicide-gank, it's so minor that it's practically meaningless. Does the extra second it takes you to switch between accounts make a difference in how much money you make using 3-minute-duration strip miners, or when you're shooting an NPC that takes 3 minutes of focused firepower from a dozen ships to die? Yes, it does, to the tune of half a percentage point.

For a suicide-ganker, it would be the difference between using 10 ships, and 15.
In mining specifically yes, the difference is minute, up to a reasonable number of clients. Though the more involved the activity the more potential loss. An incursion fleet taking 15 min to run a site instead of 10 is effectively in the same boat as a ganker. The only difference is that where for one time is a variable, the other uses additional accounts. Either way the variable condition represents a cost incurred by the loss of input broadcasting. Both can also be directly expressed in lost isk.
MrQuisno
Doomheim
#1093 - 2014-11-26 07:17:29 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sheffsam wrote:
I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.

You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.

no comment. but this is what i was thinking. curious if ISBoxer author will pull the plug on EVE or decide to make ISBoxer smarter, cuz that's all it would take. If you know what ISBoxer is capable of, you'd know there's no way for EVE to detect ISBoxer.

a lot of people need to wake up and smell the coffee. Multiboxing is the best way to play EVE.

the cries about "a multiboxer killed me" are bullshit. when you undock you sign off on whatever you encounter in space.



""They can easily check from one ISP of the same instances multiple clients of the game data being pulled."""
kraken11 jensen
ROOKS AND KRAKENS
Requiem Eternal
#1094 - 2014-11-26 07:20:00 UTC
GeeBee wrote:
My stand on ISBOXER's mirror ability has longtime been for *ease of use* or to excessively use a mechanic in the game that is inherently broken or overpowered. While I do support the removal of isboxer for BOMBing runs and maybe suicide ganking, overall the rest of the uses for it aren't too overpowered. I am worried about the economic inpact with the number of isboxing miners that will probably quit. Mining Sucks, if someone wants to use isboxer to mine it should be fair game.



Isb boxer not banned, Just copying inputs front 1 Client that og to all Clients going to be. Not Bannable yet. It going to change nothing about mining.
Aengelina Abendroth
Valkyrie Logistical Support
#1095 - 2014-11-26 07:20:40 UTC
Excellent change for the health of EVE.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1096 - 2014-11-26 07:23:01 UTC
Sheffsam wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sheffsam wrote:
I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.

You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.

Indeed, which is why I think short multi-keystroke macros from mice and keyboards to a single client should not be an issue. I'd like CCP to actually clarify this point though, as it seems to be a recurring question in this thread that's not been answered.
I'd question whether that ran against current rules about automation rather than anything that was announced here. Sounds like a good thing to ask in a petition.
Restrict Lennelluc
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1097 - 2014-11-26 07:24:48 UTC
I knew it would come down to this. So many butthurt EVE players whose endless rants and mindless chatter led to this. What do you expect from players who can't accomplish things on their own and resort to rage over others who do succeed. It goes to show that the havenots will always remain in their raging mindset and will stop at nothing to ruin other peoples fun.

With that being said, as of now all 15 accounts have been closed. Goodbye CCP, I will take myself elsewhere where a players time and currency spent ingame is appreciated.

P.S. I'm still LOLing due to the fact that us ISBoxers have had such a great impact on this game and so many players are butthurt due to us.

ISBoxers be proud and Box on!
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#1098 - 2014-11-26 07:28:22 UTC
this is good news
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1099 - 2014-11-26 07:34:02 UTC
MrQuisno wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sheffsam wrote:
I would hazard a guess that even using a tictac container will have minor differences in ms, while a macro will repeat a consistent pattern. One thing computers are good at is recognising patterns, if they are asked to do so. I'm not a developer though, so I have no idea if that's something that could practically be done within eve.

You can very easily randomize the delay using most software solutions.

no comment. but this is what i was thinking. curious if ISBoxer author will pull the plug on EVE or decide to make ISBoxer smarter, cuz that's all it would take. If you know what ISBoxer is capable of, you'd know there's no way for EVE to detect ISBoxer.

a lot of people need to wake up and smell the coffee. Multiboxing is the best way to play EVE.

the cries about "a multiboxer killed me" are bullshit. when you undock you sign off on whatever you encounter in space.



""They can easily check from one ISP of the same instances multiple clients of the game data being pulled."""

so force computers pass a single client check, like trial accounts? can be bypassed. also pretty funny to suggest that.
Rain6637
NulzSec
#1100 - 2014-11-26 07:44:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637