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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#941 - 2014-10-11 02:23:03 UTC
JC Anderson wrote:

There was no PLEX back then. :P Just GTC you bought from 3rd parties. And it wasn't an in-game item so it was really easy to get scammed.

I do however remember average prices for a Raven navy issue being well over a billion isk. Most tech 1 tier 1 battleships were around 130mil. The Cerberus, and some of the other HACS averaged between 240-300mil.

So strangely enough... Some things were cheaper... Some a lot more.



You are 100% correct, if we take the "way back" machine there weren't any PLEX, but even as recently as 4-5 years the prices have changed drastically.
I also think that like many items, The CNR's price was based on it's abilities, and I can remember when flying that meant that you had plenty of your own "power projection" *wink*

Good point though, and thanks for the trip down memory lane :P

o/
Celly Smunt


Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#942 - 2014-10-11 02:38:00 UTC
Agata Kristi wrote:
Greyscale you really do need to consider the timer for capitals again. While I think it is a good idea, it needs a better implementation method. It needs to be a set figure, not an accumulative one. Your current system will make fleets or ops impossible as an fc would need to consider everyone's. As I've said before, a set timer would have the same impact, without limiting peoples play time ( as your current system does, who would want a month long wait for decay?). A set timer of say 10 mins before jumping again removes and accumulation of waiting, therefore not limiting peoples actual play time while still reducing power projection. Please consider this, as the current system either needs a drastic change or caps just with be feasible



Well first off, why is it's the FC's responsibility to determine if an individual players can make the route. It would be very simple to say if you have X fatigue you can make it. If you don't reach the requirement, if not you'll need to do manual jumps in between and might get killed, etc. this is good for the overall game as it means players have to do more than "F1" in more areas of the game. The good FCs and good players will adapt.

The other point people seem to be missing. If you're in your own space why is it not okay to jump your cap manually through the gate. At least in current nullsec, it's stupid empty so the risk is pretty much non-existent. It also means you don't accrue any unnecessary fatigue. If the changes really do make nullsec exciting again with roaming gangs all the time, well this might be more risky but I don't see that happening with current nullsec cartel leadership's mentality.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#943 - 2014-10-11 02:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Yun Kuai wrote:
Well first off, why is it's the FC's responsibility to determine if an individual players can make the route. It would be very simple to say if you have X fatigue you can make it. If you don't reach the requirement, if not you'll need to do manual jumps in between and might get killed, etc. this is good for the overall game as it means players have to do more than "F1" in more areas of the game. The good FCs and good players will adapt.

Hah, actually this means "if you are above X fatigue then stand down".

Of course blobbers are fine with this. You need to meet some sort of threshold, so obviously it is good if less others are able to reach it.


Certainly this is good for the overall game as it means players will have to check their timer before logging off if it is too high. But it's fine as long as you have enough. Especially if you're reaching full fleets of carriers, you probably don't worry about 10 guys who can't come. A little different if you have 30 only, and 5 of those can't come.*


*At 25 carriers only, you might die to subcaps.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Praal
Bearded BattleBears
#944 - 2014-10-11 02:49:20 UTC
There's more hindering null industry than just availability of resources.

Supplying null with pure local production faces the obstacle that if you produce enough of one item for it to be worth the effort, you do not have enough clients to use it. If you make small amounts of a variety of items your clients need, then you are faced with a huge amount of tedium. And if you make small amounts of a few items, it's not enough to sustain you as an industrialist.

And there's no easy solution to this because you can't artificially create bigger markets in null, nor can you reduce the tedium of making many different items without making materials/invention completely one dimensional.

My suggestion would be to stimulate null industry by making producing in null better in itself. Make costs lower in null and higher in hisec (better material reduction on null-only POS modules/station upgrades, etc). Make goo harder to move long distances (say it's unstable or something and can't be jumped around), but reshuffle moons (and recipes) so each zone is well suited to a certain group of items. Promote universe-wide logistics/trade of built stuff.

For example make Catch be suited to produce Lasers in the W part, cap mods in the S part, armor hardeners in the N and drones in the E part. But if we want Blasters we'd either produce them inefficiently or trade with manufacturers from S Fountain, N Perrigen or W Deklein.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#945 - 2014-10-11 02:53:11 UTC
I see, so you mean that vince draken's boys might be optimally suited for producing ragnaroks and hels.

Hmm.... terrifying.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#946 - 2014-10-11 03:23:16 UTC
Okay, some notes from the thread, probably two posts

I have been a big advocate of changes being done in the same manner as focusing a microscope. Coarse focus and then fine and for gods sake stop driving the lens through the slide. The first threadnaught? First twist of thew knob. Nobody expects to hit focus on the first try. So then they listened, looked, thought about it and this thread is the second twist. Look back through it. You are engaged in small arguments but aside from a few trolls there is not a lot of 'oh gods . . . this is the end of it all' Matter of fact a lot of you seem almost happy. wierd. Maybe (just maybe) it is because they did listen and so did we (we being the CSM) and we argued for the key points. Amazingly I was in favour of not hitting the blops as hard and easing off on the Logistics.

wow

Kinda scary when they listen to you.

Now go back to page 40 and Greyscales post. IF (I said if, not when) the expansion turns out to be exploitable to some ridiculous degree then actions will be taken. So even if you are sure it is a mistake . . . and it might be (whatever 'it' is for you) then be patient.

No, they are not going to tell you in this thread the entire roadmap, but nice try and no harm in asking.

Yes, they probably will have some explanation for the whats and whys, lore wise. Being a filthy RP kinda guy I am looking forward to that.

Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
xXThe EntityXx
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#947 - 2014-10-11 03:28:22 UTC
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#948 - 2014-10-11 03:30:24 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Yes, they probably will have some explanation for the whats and whys, lore wise. Being a filthy RP kinda guy I am looking forward to that.

What did they give for the doomsdays being non-aoe, then capital only?

Or for the supercarriers forgetting how to use normal drones

Mike Azariah wrote:
Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

Op success. Jam it in there while there's less resistance due to forums fatigue

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#949 - 2014-10-11 03:52:14 UTC
xXThe EntityXx wrote:
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.



Good thing I know some people that own tribute and can fly a JF (time to re-buy one!)...

And who said you can't find market intel on the forums?! Cool

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#950 - 2014-10-11 04:08:20 UTC
xXThe EntityXx wrote:
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.

Close, but keep trying. There's actually a way in under the 10LY range.

I guess I could TELL you, but what would be the fun in that?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#951 - 2014-10-11 04:10:26 UTC
Querns wrote:
xXThe EntityXx wrote:
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.

Close, but keep trying. There's actually a way in under the 10LY range.

I guess I could TELL you, but what would be the fun in that?

This is one reason why they should drop it to 8 or 9, then we could see at least some relevance in the geography.
Steve Korakat
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#952 - 2014-10-11 04:13:43 UTC
EVE learning curve is difficult already and many players have given up from the beginning.

This patch/nerf is way too confusing. Can we make adjustment in a simple stupid manner?
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#953 - 2014-10-11 04:14:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Mike Azariah wrote:
Okay, some notes from the thread, probably two posts

I have been a big advocate of changes being done in the same manner as focusing a microscope. Coarse focus and then fine and for gods sake stop driving the lens through the slide. The first threadnaught? First twist of thew knob. Nobody expects to hit focus on the first try. So then they listened, looked, thought about it and this thread is the second twist. Look back through it. You are engaged in small arguments but aside from a few trolls there is not a lot of 'oh gods . . . this is the end of it all' Matter of fact a lot of you seem almost happy. wierd. Maybe (just maybe) it is because they did listen and so did we (we being the CSM) and we argued for the key points. Amazingly I was in favour of not hitting the blops as hard and easing off on the Logistics.

wow

Kinda scary when they listen to you.

Now go back to page 40 and Greyscales post. IF (I said if, not when) the expansion turns out to be exploitable to some ridiculous degree then actions will be taken. So even if you are sure it is a mistake . . . and it might be (whatever 'it' is for you) then be patient.

No, they are not going to tell you in this thread the entire roadmap, but nice try and no harm in asking.

Yes, they probably will have some explanation for the whats and whys, lore wise. Being a filthy RP kinda guy I am looking forward to that.

Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

m




Don't mistake a giant sigh of relief for approval. Whatever the motivation behind it a bad idea is a bad idea and this one is SPECTACULARLY bad. The fact that it will not do what it is intended for and puts a HUGE drag on player fun time has been momentarily forgotten in the relief that we got the people driving this little excursion not to throw the economy under the wheels of the bus.


I appreciate your equanimity, but be careful. If you ride the fence on this one you might better put on a cup :P

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#954 - 2014-10-11 04:42:08 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Querns wrote:
xXThe EntityXx wrote:
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.

Close, but keep trying. There's actually a way in under the 10LY range.

I guess I could TELL you, but what would be the fun in that?

This is one reason why they should drop it to 8 or 9, then we could see at least some relevance in the geography.

Goons cried too much apparently?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#955 - 2014-10-11 05:00:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Greyscale, is there any chance you could cap fatigue at a maximum of 300?

This would then give a maximum time possible to completely clear fatigue of 50 hours

And then for all ships you would have a maximum possible jump cooldown of 5 hours

Capping the maximum fatigue at 300 would mean that no one would ever be punished for more than 50 hours, and would still mean jump cooldown is at a prohibitive level when you raise your fatigue too greatly.

Also, I think you need to somehow link the cooldown to the ship as well as the pilot if that is at all possible to prevent multiple pilots being used to transfer capitals easily.



All fatigue timers should relate to the ship not the pilot, making them relate to the pilot is so open to abuse the whole concept is a failure, no-one needs to find exploits, they are built into the mechanic.

Fatigue = Punishment.. I won't pay to play a game to be punished by a game mechanic. I am not breaking any rules, I am not cheating, I have trained to use the ships in a certain way, I have paid to buy those ships. Simply because the original mechanics of the game were flawed is no excuse to punish those who used them.
Had you told me a few years ago I was at risk of being punished in the future for training certain ship classes, I would not have wasted the time and money training capital alts. Had you told me jumping a tengu through 2 jump bridges and a titan bridge to get to a fight would mean I could not use easily those "legitimate" game mechanics for the next month because I was being punished by the creators of the game, for playing the game, I would have found another game to play, one that didn't deliberately set out to create game mechanics to punish players who have spent years training to fly the ships they will now be punished for flying.


What I will in future be telling people who ask me about Eve Online.
Eve is no longer a sandbox where everyone can choose how they play. It is a game where you play as CCP deem suitable.
If you don't want to change your play style and have to adapt every time a dev has an idea, you just can't play eve.
- - - - - - - - -
For those who are looking for capital alts so you can "adapt", watch the character bazaar, my 6 will all be there soon.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
OldWolf69
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#956 - 2014-10-11 05:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: OldWolf69
Mike Azariah wrote:
Okay, some notes from the thread, probably two posts

I have been a big advocate of changes being done in the same manner as focusing a microscope. Coarse focus and then fine and for gods sake stop driving the lens through the slide. The first threadnaught? First twist of thew knob. Nobody expects to hit focus on the first try. So then they listened, looked, thought about it and this thread is the second twist. Look back through it. You are engaged in small arguments but aside from a few trolls there is not a lot of 'oh gods . . . this is the end of it all' Matter of fact a lot of you seem almost happy. wierd. Maybe (just maybe) it is because they did listen and so did we (we being the CSM) and we argued for the key points. Amazingly I was in favour of not hitting the blops as hard and easing off on the Logistics.

wow

Kinda scary when they listen to you.

Now go back to page 40 and Greyscales post. IF (I said if, not when) the expansion turns out to be exploitable to some ridiculous degree then actions will be taken. So even if you are sure it is a mistake . . . and it might be (whatever 'it' is for you) then be patient.

No, they are not going to tell you in this thread the entire roadmap, but nice try and no harm in asking.

Yes, they probably will have some explanation for the whats and whys, lore wise. Being a filthy RP kinda guy I am looking forward to that.

Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

m


Bleah. How stupid do you think we are? Just as stupid CCP insists we must be?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#957 - 2014-10-11 06:07:58 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
Okay, some notes from the thread, probably two posts

I have been a big advocate of changes being done in the same manner as focusing a microscope. Coarse focus and then fine and for gods sake stop driving the lens through the slide. The first threadnaught? First twist of thew knob. Nobody expects to hit focus on the first try. So then they listened, looked, thought about it and this thread is the second twist. Look back through it. You are engaged in small arguments but aside from a few trolls there is not a lot of 'oh gods . . . this is the end of it all' Matter of fact a lot of you seem almost happy. wierd. Maybe (just maybe) it is because they did listen and so did we (we being the CSM) and we argued for the key points. Amazingly I was in favour of not hitting the blops as hard and easing off on the Logistics.

wow

Kinda scary when they listen to you.

Now go back to page 40 and Greyscales post. IF (I said if, not when) the expansion turns out to be exploitable to some ridiculous degree then actions will be taken. So even if you are sure it is a mistake . . . and it might be (whatever 'it' is for you) then be patient.

No, they are not going to tell you in this thread the entire roadmap, but nice try and no harm in asking.

Yes, they probably will have some explanation for the whats and whys, lore wise. Being a filthy RP kinda guy I am looking forward to that.

Over all I would say the tone, the mood, of this thread is far far different from the last. Maybe because it is coming into focus? Maybe because everybody burned out on the last one.

m


Bleah. How stupid do you think we are? Just as stupid CCP insists we must be?

If it does not satisfy their vision, perhaps they will have to rebalance your intelligence stats

Maybe with some sort of fatigue mechanism?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#958 - 2014-10-11 06:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: JC Anderson
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Querns wrote:
xXThe EntityXx wrote:
I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF.

Close, but keep trying. There's actually a way in under the 10LY range.

I guess I could TELL you, but what would be the fun in that?

This is one reason why they should drop it to 8 or 9, then we could see at least some relevance in the geography.

Goons cried too much apparently?


Grr goons
MuppetsSlayed
Angelus.Mortis
ISK.Net
#959 - 2014-10-11 06:23:05 UTC
These amendments are defiantly positive and address a lot of the tears.

My concern when this was announced was with moving corps when you live in zero which has still not been addressed.

Currently you pack up your carriers on your combat toons and rorqs on your indy toons and make several jumps back and forth to low sec. You then switch corps, move your jump alts and make several hops back and forward to your new home.

If your going a long way or are deep out into zero you needs some mids.
This process has always taken a while but has been something you did yourself.
Do you expect the corp/group your leaving to help escort you out of their space over and over again to get your stuff out?

Its going to take considerably longer now to move corps, a lot of people might not bother - I cant see how it can be intended for people to be less likely to move corps / areas as this really makes null static / stagnent for a player.

To resolve this issue why dont you make carriers be able to carry more ships at once or allow Rorqs to move more classes of ships? You would then be able to restore the ability to move your ships and aachieve your power projection nerf.
JC Anderson
RED ROSE THORN
#960 - 2014-10-11 06:26:53 UTC
As a side note... Look on the bright side people.

INFINITE SKILL QUEUES!