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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Author
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#661 - 2014-10-10 09:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Heh, I'd say you guys backed down way too much. 7-8 ly JF range would have been just fine with fatigue bonus. It would have kept logistics fairly doable while requiring very specialized character and an expensive ship to provide them.

What really bugs me however, is the fact that now a lot of the changes have been undone. Don't really understand the logic behind fatigue bonus for most other hauling classes as it pretty much negates the (supposed) intended effect of preventing fast movement across the universe. This actually favors large alliances who have bridges in place and have the ability to put even more of them, its not like training industrials 1 on a char is a big deal.
Whisperen
Kenshin.
The Initiative.
#662 - 2014-10-10 09:50:59 UTC
Wow CCPs backbone up and disappeared again. The logistics changes was the best part now nothing matters.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#663 - 2014-10-10 09:54:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Whisperen wrote:
Wow CCPs backbone up and disappeared again. The logistics changes was the best part now nothing matters.



Agree. Without the logistic changes, the benefits will be reduced to ZERO.

Zero extra content. Zero reasons to be happy about the expansion.

The hope was strong, but short lived.

That sided with people using haulers to travel trough bridges COMPLETELY negates all the changes.

Standard fast deployment will be jump bridge a hundred haulers , discarded on arrival and pods take ships from super carrieriers hangars :(

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#664 - 2014-10-10 10:06:50 UTC
Good job CCP you chickened out. Straight
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#665 - 2014-10-10 10:21:46 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
Dream Five wrote:
There's no smooth progressive nerfing of JF range, anywhere under 10 will cut off Stain and Drone regions entirely while leaving (i think) all other regions mostly intact. The map just wasn't designed for sub-10 ly jumps. Such a change would be simply unfair to some of the existing inhabitants.

The map wasn't designed for jumps in the first place.

The map was designed with static complexes, are they bringing them back too?
J'aghatai
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#666 - 2014-10-10 10:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: J'aghatai
I still like the coming patch, you do a great job ccp.
Only thing that bothers me now is, i was really looking forward to do some industry stuff in 0.0. That part of eve was always something i was interested to explore but never did - because it always came down to "just buy from jita".
I might be wrong, but i think i am not alone there. I think there is quite a pool of ppl willing to provide the great industrialists with goods locally. Just for that "we build an empire together" feeling.

So my suggsetion (might be horribly):
Idea
Make a low slot module for JF that extends the Jumprange but comsumes moderate amounts of cargo space. So the important logistcs can be done relativly fast and without huge amount of clonejump/lifetime wastage but you cant support a whole alliance with a handful JFs.
That way NPC 0.0 guys could do their light/medium fleets easily - but for sov structures/warfare there will be necessary to get resources locally.


Anyways, keep up the good work Big smile
Evelgrivion
Origin.
Black Legion...
#667 - 2014-10-10 10:25:43 UTC
It's widely speculated that there will be some effort to pass jump capable ships onto different pilots in order to escape the fatigue timer. Would it be possible to prevent this by making ships carry and apply the original owner's fatigue timer (or whoever subsequently uses it with the bigger fatigue timer) onto any other pilot who gets in? The ship would also need to be impossible to repackage while it's contagious. P
Baron Birco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#668 - 2014-10-10 10:29:48 UTC
Seems to me the only folks complaining about the JF range were 10yr old chars with JF alts capable of supplying their entire alliance via link to Jita.

The nurf to JF actually made dedicated industrialists extremely valuable to Nullsec alliances to develop their respective local economies. It would have encouraged greater integration of PvE-centric players and game play with PvP. The changes brought lines of communication into existence and all the PvP content that goes along with that.

What we have now is just one set of code contradicting the other.

RIP Phoebe.
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#669 - 2014-10-10 10:34:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?


Happy to discuss it, yes :)


How about removing the shield rep and drone bonuses, and replacing them with fatigue and jump range bonuses? It would make Capital Industrial Ships actually worth training to a decent level.
marVLs
#670 - 2014-10-10 10:40:00 UTC
"Null... Null never changes..."
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#671 - 2014-10-10 10:46:57 UTC
Baron Birco wrote:
Seems to me the only folks complaining about the JF range were 10yr old chars with JF alts capable of supplying their entire alliance via link to Jita.

The nurf to JF actually made dedicated industrialists extremely valuable to Nullsec alliances to develop their respective local economies. It would have encouraged greater integration of PvE-centric players and game play with PvP. The changes brought lines of communication into existence and all the PvP content that goes along with that.

What we have now is just one set of code contradicting the other.

RIP Phoebe.


Putting aside the other unresolved resource issues with living in null-sec, heavily nerfed logistics in a vacuum would cripple the entire T2 market for everyone. Do you want to pay 200mil for an Interceptor or 800mil for a HAC? The only people who win in that situation are those who have spent years assembling huge stockpiles of moon materials in high-sec and are able to control their distribution. Everyone else will pay through the nose or have to stick with T1.

CCP need to have a long hard look at re-balancing resource distribution before messing around any further with logistical ranges, as it won't be the large nullsec alliances paying the bill for it.

Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#672 - 2014-10-10 10:50:26 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Whisperen wrote:
Wow CCPs backbone up and disappeared again. The logistics changes was the best part now nothing matters.



Agree. Without the logistic changes, the benefits will be reduced to ZERO.

Zero extra content. Zero reasons to be happy about the expansion.

The hope was strong, but short lived.

That sided with people using haulers to travel trough bridges COMPLETELY negates all the changes.

Standard fast deployment will be jump bridge a hundred haulers , discarded on arrival and pods take ships from super carrieriers hangars :(


So the sole content from this patch was supposed to be freighters you can gank at a gate?
Monasucks
BLACK SQUADRON.
The Bastion
#673 - 2014-10-10 10:51:47 UTC
Bobbyd wrote:
Vlade Randal wrote:
+1 Great idea changing jump freighter jump range to 10ly

The Rorqual is used a lot in nullsec transport, for dropping control towers, fueling pos, and as an alternative logistical transport ship for those lacking the skills or isk for a jump freighter. It plays a vital role in current nullsec logistics at present. Therefore, I suggest that the rorqual should also have the 10ly range to enable it to continue its vital role in 0.0.

The only other suggestion I would make, is that 5ly is marginally short for reaching key logistics points that have stations to dock in. Several of the jump routes i have looked at are 5.1ly to 5.8ly. Therefore I recommend increasing maximum jump range of combat vessels to 6ly. This would still achieve the goal of reducing force projection, while keeping it reasonably painless to move combat ships over time when needed.


Id say keep the 11LY range, this would ensure the logistics side of null isn't hurt but curbing the forces projection that we all dread.

Bring back the small gang warfare we all love and not break the eve economy!

on another note maybe not change the range of capital ships but change the mechanics for cynos jump bridges and portals to alliance only, add 5min cool down on jump drives for STD caps and 1 min on Rorq Jump freighter and black ops ,

this would reduce the large scale blobs and not eliminate the 80 v 80 battles that are fun and don't need Tidi...



yes keep the ror where it was before..
and set the cool down limit for caps lower.. much lower.. waiting 30days.. i do not pay you € for letting me wait 30days to play again!

Monasucks Tumblr

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"A good worker is a live worker. Free to live - and work! A bad worker is a dead worker; and vice versa. Don't be a bad worker; bad workers are slaves, and dead."

Adrie Atticus
Circle Mercs
#674 - 2014-10-10 10:53:47 UTC
Baron Birco wrote:
Seems to me the only folks complaining about the JF range were 10yr old chars with JF alts capable of supplying their entire alliance via link to Jita.

The nurf to JF actually made dedicated industrialists extremely valuable to Nullsec alliances to develop their respective local economies. It would have encouraged greater integration of PvE-centric players and game play with PvP. The changes brought lines of communication into existence and all the PvP content that goes along with that.

What we have now is just one set of code contradicting the other.

RIP Phoebe.


Industrialists in local null can only produce local products if there is no way to efficiently trade. North would run caldari, south minnie and the things in between whatever they could get their hands on.

Nullsec cannot self-sustain anything complicated at the moment as moons are distributed unevenly, fuel is regional only and asteroid contents are varying compared to, you guessed it, region.

If they fix the industry, then they can remove jump drives for all I care, but this order of changes is going to cause more pressure on the dev team to come up with band-aids to problems which could have been averted by not starting from the wrong end.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Reckless Contingency.
#675 - 2014-10-10 10:57:10 UTC
GreyScale

In the shorter term can you increase the mexallon quantities in nullsec/lowsec ores to help make nullsec less reliant on JF logistics

Presently the value of nullsec ores is below that of highsec ores, due to the lack of Mexallon in nullsec ores
4x more Mexallon in Arkonor would help in the short term, until a more permanent balance can be achieved
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#676 - 2014-10-10 10:58:12 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
GreyScale

In the shorter term can you increase the mexallon quantities in nullsec/lowsec ores to help make nullsec less reliant on JF logistics

Presently the value of nullsec ores is below that of highsec ores, due to the lack of Mexallon in nullsec ores
4x more Mexallon in Arkonor would help in the short term, until a more permanent balance can be achieved


Quoting a pretty big reason why JFs are so heavily used in nullsec.
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#677 - 2014-10-10 10:58:50 UTC
xttz wrote:
Baron Birco wrote:
Seems to me the only folks complaining about the JF range were 10yr old chars with JF alts capable of supplying their entire alliance via link to Jita.

The nurf to JF actually made dedicated industrialists extremely valuable to Nullsec alliances to develop their respective local economies. It would have encouraged greater integration of PvE-centric players and game play with PvP. The changes brought lines of communication into existence and all the PvP content that goes along with that.

What we have now is just one set of code contradicting the other.

RIP Phoebe.


Putting aside the other unresolved resource issues with living in null-sec, heavily nerfed logistics in a vacuum would cripple the entire T2 market for everyone. Do you want to pay 200mil for an Interceptor or 800mil for a HAC? The only people who win in that situation are those who have spent years assembling huge stockpiles of moon materials in high-sec and are able to control their distribution. Everyone else will pay through the nose or have to stick with T1.

CCP need to have a long hard look at re-balancing resource distribution before messing around any further with logistical ranges, as it won't be the large nullsec alliances paying the bill for it.



Take some time and roll back a few years - this kind of argument has been used over and over again. It was the exact statement before JF where showing up, then it was used when more caps appeared - hell is was even one of the arguments why everyone wanted to evict BoB back in the days claiming they controlled all of it .

Playing the 'boogie-man' card of T2 is going to be badly expensive wont work on educated players any more. We alreadfy have a inflation of T2 ships compared to player age and necessity - not even mentioning how easy isk comes by these days. Its not special anymore - it has become standard to have easy access to it. And we shouldnt if we want the real Eve back that is challenging like a chess game with a decent oponent.


Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#678 - 2014-10-10 11:03:54 UTC
Ncc 1709 wrote:
GreyScale

In the shorter term can you increase the mexallon quantities in nullsec/lowsec ores to help make nullsec less reliant on JF logistics

Presently the value of nullsec ores is below that of highsec ores, due to the lack of Mexallon in nullsec ores
4x more Mexallon in Arkonor would help in the short term, until a more permanent balance can be achieved


Just build less capitals = less mex needed - no need to fix ore AGAIN

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Lugh Crow-Slave
#679 - 2014-10-10 11:06:01 UTC
well maybe with the reduction on the blop portal and on blockade runners cov ops mining can still be a thing.

can't wait for the changes to hit TQ so we can see how they affect the game and i'm sure ccp will react to it in a quicker then "soon" matter but all in all love to see when you guys listen to us
Agata Kristi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#680 - 2014-10-10 11:07:08 UTC
Bobbyd wrote:
Vlade Randal wrote:
+1 Great idea changing jump freighter jump range to 10ly

The Rorqual is used a lot in nullsec transport, for dropping control towers, fueling pos, and as an alternative logistical transport ship for those lacking the skills or isk for a jump freighter. It plays a vital role in current nullsec logistics at present. Therefore, I suggest that the rorqual should also have the 10ly range to enable it to continue its vital role in 0.0.

The only other suggestion I would make, is that 5ly is marginally short for reaching key logistics points that have stations to dock in. Several of the jump routes i have looked at are 5.1ly to 5.8ly. Therefore I recommend increasing maximum jump range of combat vessels to 6ly. This would still achieve the goal of reducing force projection, while keeping it reasonably painless to move combat ships over time when needed.


Id say keep the 11LY range, this would ensure the logistics side of null isn't hurt but curbing the forces projection that we all dread.

Bring back the small gang warfare we all love and not break the eve economy!

on another note maybe not change the range of capital ships but change the mechanics for cynos jump bridges and portals to alliance only, add 5min cool down on jump drives for STD caps and 1 min on Rorq Jump freighter and black ops ,

this would reduce the large scale blobs and not eliminate the 80 v 80 battles that are fun and don't need Tidi...



+1