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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Author
xttz
GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
Goonswarm Federation
#701 - 2014-10-10 12:32:31 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


Any change that may improve the in-game quality of life for certain other players must be venomously shouted down by a small but vocal* minority because... reasons. It's pretty much the same arguments used against welfare and immigration in real life:

  • They have everything much better than I do, screw them
  • They don't think the same way as I do, screw them
  • I have an inexplicable and irrational hatred for a large and varied group of people who may only have one thing in common, but screw them anyway


If only we could learn to get along by just shooting each other with spaceships instead of using mean words like meanies :(

*and often anonymous
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#702 - 2014-10-10 12:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jake Meracha wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

Therefore, changes we are making to the previously-announced plan:
[list]
  • Jump freighter max range will be bumped up to 10LY, and they will keep the 90% fatigue-distance reduction. This represents a slight range reduction compared to TQ, so some cynos will need to be repositioned, but otherwise leaves them largely alone. Note that, because ranges multiply together for fatigue purposes, one 10LY jump is *substantially* less fatiguing (multiply by 11) than two 5LY jumps (multiply by 36). Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90%


  • [edit 19:21 added bullet point 5 to first list]


    Thank you for listening to your NPC null community. Larger alliances and blocs can do escorts all day long for their logistics. For those that are smaller, we need supplies to hold our own out here, which requires a logistical supply chain.


    This is an important point that some over zealous "but you need to kill the coalitions for me to succeeds" types don't understand at all.

    The original set of super nerfs weren't (and still aren't ) going to do much to change the overall situation, because that situation doesn't exist because of game mechanics but rather because of human nature. Meanwhile, those same super nerfs would have blunted the ability of ANY non established group to move to or live in the one type of space (NPC null) that gives such groups a chance to dip a toe into the ocean. In other words, it would have the same effect that EVERY such nerf has: rather than create a better situation, it would have made the current situation worse than it is now because 'rich people' can adapt to change merely by throwing money at it while 'poor people' can't.



    Being an outsider, I don't know what internal 'postmortem' review process CCP has for features and content modifications, but from here (again, admittedly from the outside) it doesn't seem to be very robust. in other words, it doesn't seem to me that CCP ever really asks themselves "why didn't this work", which would lead to figuring out what does actually work. This past devblog that I am fond of linking is a perfect case in point because of this section:

    Quote:
    Expected consequences

    Some alliances will immediately start wanting to look for better space
    In the longer run, there'll be more conflicts going on, with more localized goals
    Newer alliances will have an easier time getting a foothold in nullsec
    Coalitions will be marginally less stable
    Alliances will have to choose more carefully what space they develop, where their staging systems are, and so on (low truesec systems generally tend to be in strategically inconvenient places)


    Yet the change (though reasonable sounding in the beginning) CREATED the 'renters desert' that is null sec today. A null sec of systems so crappy that only high sec groups that don't know any better would want to pay a bil or 2 per month to live there just so they can add the words "access to null space" on their corp adverts.

    Some of us tried to explain that the above change wouldn't work because rather than "fight for better space", people would "fight for room in a friends carrier" to move their stuff back to empire where their isk making PVE alts could run high sec incursions and missions or low sec pve (a nerf doesn't work if there is an alternative that is just as good). When we did this we were told be player who thought this was a good idea that "you just don't want things to change for the better" and "you profit from the status quo".

    We're experiencing the same thing again, which is why I've been bookmakring stuff like crazy, because at this point all we'll be able to do is post this very thread again in 6 months and then beg for actual understanding to occur.
    Tahnil
    Gunboat Commando
    #703 - 2014-10-10 12:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
    Zifrian wrote:
    Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


    Because you can move a huge pile of war materials in an instance, far across the galaxy, and the F1 drones will follow with their interceptors and clone jumps.
    Verdis deMosays
    Stay Frosty.
    A Band Apart.
    #704 - 2014-10-10 12:42:30 UTC
    Tahnil wrote:
    Zifrian wrote:
    Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


    Because you can move a huge pile of war materials in an instance, far across the galaxy, and the F1 drones will follow with their interceptors and clone jumps.


    And that, kids, is why the one thing the blocs are trying to save now is the Jump Freighter.
    Speedkermit Damo
    Republic University
    Minmatar Republic
    #705 - 2014-10-10 12:46:45 UTC
    The status quo will now be maintained. The blue donut and vast rental empires will stay as they are. Good job CCP. I guess placating mittens is more important than saving your game and your company after all.

    Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

    Tootenh'amon
    #706 - 2014-10-10 12:47:42 UTC
    xttz wrote:
    Zifrian wrote:
    Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


    Any change that may improve the in-game quality of life for certain other players must be venomously shouted down by a small but vocal* minority because... reasons. It's pretty much the same arguments used against welfare and immigration in real life:

    • They have everything much better than I do, screw them
    • They don't think the same way as I do, screw them
    • I have an inexplicable and irrational hatred for a large and varied group of people who may only have one thing in common, but screw them anyway


    If only we could learn to get along by just shooting each other with spaceships instead of using mean words like meanies :(

    *and often anonymous


    There's a reason people don't (usually) cheat in single player games. Having it harder can actually be a lot more fun. In eve for some reason the game has to slow down for the big, fat alliances, because their "quality of life" is more important than content generation and gameplay.
    Jenn aSide
    Worthless Carebears
    Pandemic Horde
    #707 - 2014-10-10 12:48:24 UTC
    Tahnil wrote:
    Zifrian wrote:
    Can someone explain to me why jump freighters and rorquals jump ranges limit "force projection"? I just don't get why they are part of these changes at all.


    Because you can move a huge pile of war materials in an instance, far across the galaxy, and the F1 drones will follow with their interceptors and clone jumps.


    Did you think something like this wasn't going to happen anyway? People always find a way around "barrier and speed bump" game mechanics, we've witnessed this in EVE for 11 years.

    Prior to Dominion, the 'big bad' was blobbing (still is of course). After Dominion (when Dominion's promise of lessening the need for blobbing not only failed but led to bigger blobs) the 'big bad' became 'force projection', 'apex forces' and super capitals.

    After these force projection nerfs and other such game mechanics changes CCP is stewing fail, there will be another "big bad thing that if you just change it, everything will be fine". When changing that doesn't work, people will find yet another scape goat, anything to keep them from having to change how they think of solutions to complex/human involved problems.

    Retar Aveymone
    DJ's Retirement Fund
    Goonswarm Federation
    #708 - 2014-10-10 12:50:01 UTC
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    No.. was makign people play as a group and PROTECT those freighters.

    If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

    i have organized several freighter ops recently

    i can assure you not one bit of fun was had by anyone in the game at all as part of those ops, either on our side or hostile
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #709 - 2014-10-10 12:51:00 UTC
    Retar Aveymone wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    No.. was makign people play as a group and PROTECT those freighters.

    If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

    i have organized several freighter ops recently

    i can assure you not one bit of fun was had by anyone in the game at all as part of those ops, either on our side or hostile


    It's right up there with guarding miners
    Jenn aSide
    Worthless Carebears
    Pandemic Horde
    #710 - 2014-10-10 12:51:24 UTC
    Speedkermit Damo wrote:
    The status quo will now be maintained. The blue donut and vast rental empires will stay as they are. Good job CCP. I guess placating mittens is more important than saving your game and your company after all.


    Another good example of the bad thinking I'm preaching against, mainly because it displays no willingness to entertain the idea that the changes could have made the "mittens" and "blue donuts" of the EVE world WORSE than they are right now.

    At the very least, the 'loosening' of the jump range nerfs means that NPC null doesn't get the super shaft that was aimed at it.
    xttz
    GSF Logistics and Posting Reserves
    Goonswarm Federation
    #711 - 2014-10-10 12:53:27 UTC
    Retar Aveymone wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    No.. was makign people play as a group and PROTECT those freighters.

    If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

    i have organized several freighter ops recently

    i can assure you not one bit of fun was had by anyone in the game at all as part of those ops, either on our side or hostile


    It's odd that the people who most vocally advocate freighter escort ops or guarding mining ops are the ones who would rarely, if ever, have to do it.
    Retar Aveymone
    DJ's Retirement Fund
    Goonswarm Federation
    #712 - 2014-10-10 12:53:43 UTC
    Tootenh'amon wrote:

    There's a reason people don't (usually) cheat in single player games. Having it harder can actually be a lot more fun. In eve for some reason the game has to slow down for the big, fat alliances, because their "quality of life" is more important than content generation and gameplay.

    people don't cheat in single player games that are miserable to do basic tasks in, they just stop playing them

    the average highsec talking rock seems to be unaware of the difference between tedious and hard

    hard is something that requires thinking, puzzle-solving, skills, or whatever

    tedious is something that's just mindless misery

    we like it when things are hard, because we're smarter than everyone else. we dislike it when things are tedious, because that's just unfun and boring and you don't get anything out of it

    various things keep saying "eve is supposed to be hard!!!!" while not grasping that hard is not tedious, and that just making 0.0 more tedious does not make eve harder it makes eve shittier
    Komi Toran
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #713 - 2014-10-10 12:54:46 UTC
    xttz wrote:
    Yep absolutely. HACs did cost 300m isk. However 30 day timecards also cost 100m isk. Using these as a baseline...

    ...would be an incredibly ignorant thing to do, as the value of PLEX does not correspond with the value of other goods. It's why PLEX can increase 200 mil in price during a time of slight deflation.
    Hiroyoshi Sugita
    Doomheim
    #714 - 2014-10-10 12:55:39 UTC
    The only raison of ccp to make this patch is for force us to make alot of toons for multiple staging so we dont need anymore projection force i just say bravo to ccp for that new direction to pay to win...

    Le Monocle rit jaune !
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #715 - 2014-10-10 12:56:33 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Speedkermit Damo wrote:
    The status quo will now be maintained. The blue donut and vast rental empires will stay as they are. Good job CCP. I guess placating mittens is more important than saving your game and your company after all.


    Another good example of the bad thinking I'm preaching against, mainly because it displays no willingness to entertain the idea that the changes could have made the "mittens" and "blue donuts" of the EVE world WORSE than they are right now.

    At the very least, the 'loosening' of the jump range nerfs means that NPC null doesn't get the super shaft that was aimed at it.



    You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

    It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

    At this point (to use a crappy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!
    Jenn aSide
    Worthless Carebears
    Pandemic Horde
    #716 - 2014-10-10 12:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
    afkalt wrote:
    Retar Aveymone wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    No.. was makign people play as a group and PROTECT those freighters.

    If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

    i have organized several freighter ops recently

    i can assure you not one bit of fun was had by anyone in the game at all as part of those ops, either on our side or hostile


    It's right up there with guarding miners


    +1

    I don't know why people view the past with rose colored glasses. It's like all the people watching movies like Brave Heart and shows like Sparticus wishing they lived in those glorious times times of men being men because all they can see is the glory, not the death before age 30 from Cholera, plague and wisdom tooth extraction infections lol. No thanks, I'll stay in the nice sanitary but less manly present thank you very much.

    Convoys SUCKED, which is why people begged CCP for YEARS for jump drives. Now people think Jump Drives are the enemy and want the convoys back, if CCP does that it will be a couple weeks before people go back to screaming for their jump drives again lol.
    Alavaria Fera
    GoonWaffe
    #717 - 2014-10-10 12:58:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    afkalt wrote:
    Retar Aveymone wrote:
    Kagura Nikon wrote:

    No.. was makign people play as a group and PROTECT those freighters.

    If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

    i have organized several freighter ops recently

    i can assure you not one bit of fun was had by anyone in the game at all as part of those ops, either on our side or hostile


    It's right up there with guarding miners


    +1

    I don't know why people view the past with rose colored glasses. It's like all the people watching movies like Brave Heart and shows like Sparticus wishing they lived in those glorious times times of men being men because all they can see is the glory, not the death before age 30 from Cholera, plague and wisdom tooth extraction infections lol. No thanks, I'll stay in the nice sanitary but less manly present thank you very much.

    Convoys SUCKED, which is why people begged CCP for YEARS for jump drives. Now people thing Jump Drives are the enemy and want the convoys back, if CCP does that it will be a couple weeks before people go back to screaming for their jump drives again lol.

    Basically, eve is about making people scream

    Kagura Nikon wrote:
    If you cannot make ahalf a dozen friends in an MMO the thing that needs a real buff are not JF, but your social skills

    I think you might be a blobber.

    Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

    Jenn aSide
    Worthless Carebears
    Pandemic Horde
    #718 - 2014-10-10 12:59:07 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    Jenn aSide wrote:
    Speedkermit Damo wrote:
    The status quo will now be maintained. The blue donut and vast rental empires will stay as they are. Good job CCP. I guess placating mittens is more important than saving your game and your company after all.


    Another good example of the bad thinking I'm preaching against, mainly because it displays no willingness to entertain the idea that the changes could have made the "mittens" and "blue donuts" of the EVE world WORSE than they are right now.

    At the very least, the 'loosening' of the jump range nerfs means that NPC null doesn't get the super shaft that was aimed at it.



    You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

    It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

    At this point (to use a crapy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!


    Oh I know. At the risk of sounding like a pessimist (side note, this means I'll live longer lol), given CCPs history I doubt knowing the plans will make that much of a difference...
    Retar Aveymone
    DJ's Retirement Fund
    Goonswarm Federation
    #719 - 2014-10-10 13:00:24 UTC
    afkalt wrote:

    You know what would help a LOT, actually, is if CCP actually alluded to the other things that they have planned for later.

    It would probably help everyone as it is literally impossible to take part 1 of a 3 phase plan and hold it on overal merits if we do not know parts 2 and 3 even loosely. Specifics are not required - just something of the greater plan we can hold these changes up against.

    At this point (to use a crapy TV analogy) we are basically arguing about whodunnit after watching part 1 of a 3 part TV murder mystery show!

    the reason there's not any details is probably that steps 2 and 3 are currently in the "this is what we want the endpoint to be" and not "we have figured out how to get from a -> b". you don't want to talk about the goals when you're still figuring out if you can even get there - some goals are easy to say but insanely hard to implement and you might need to throw those out. for example: everyone always says that sov battles should require everyone to split their forces and contest multiple objectives, to combat lag. it's a good goal, but nobody has ever proposed a mechanic that implements it - all proposed mechanics the dominant strategy is still to combine your forces and crush each one of your enemy's dispersed forces in turn and nobody's been able to come up with a mechanic where that strategy isn't the best move
    Alp Khan
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #720 - 2014-10-10 13:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
    Hendrick Tallardar wrote:


    It's almost as if you can't accept people from a player group are allowed to think for themselves, that makes me sad friend. Why would you fall for such a flawed view on life?


    You should ask that question to yourself, because the group of players that bring up false-pretense ~concerns~ with how the logistics and industry jump changes were readjusted so that null logistics can still work are almost exclusively Pandemic Legion players, a group known for having miniscule numbers and having traditionally relied on being able to project capital and supercapital ships throughout all of New Eden. It's awfully looking like here that you bunch are all aware that PL's claim to being relevant in null is getting burned to ground here through the combat capital jump nerf, which is almost unanimously seen as a necessary change. In response, it looks like your group is trying to salvage at least some amount of it's relevance by making sure that they would at least be geographically isolated from other null entities, which rely on numbers, organization and logistics instead of combat supercapital and capital projection, therefore making sure that your group can able to brace the storm despite all of your disadvantages.

    Almost exclusively, your group of players claimed under this thread that somehow industrials would be used as shuttles, which is a hilariously silly idea that cannot work, as industrials are filmsy and unsurvivable, suspect to getting caught by bubbles, and better alternatives in the forum of travel interceptors without any vulnerabilies that can travel faster without bothering with any mechanics do exist.

    Furthermore, in contrast with the self-serving agenda PL is trying to push here, responses to Greyscale's original set of proposed changes which rightly highlighted how those would kill null logistics in it's tracks, and damage EVE economy as a whole, were bipartisan and overwhelming in numbers.

    Now, unless your group of players can't find a better and valid argument to be able to coerce the developers into making further changes to guarantee that PL can be isolated and able to make a difference with sub capitals, I suggest you stop reflecting your inability think for yourself and penchant for group think upon us, as by continuing to do so, you'll only be hindering your already diminishing credibility further.