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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Author
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6581 - 2014-10-04 16:15:42 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why are so many of you too naive to see this?

Probably because many are of the opinion that anything to shake up the meta is better than the utter stagnation we have now?
Napoleon Aldent
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#6582 - 2014-10-04 16:16:50 UTC
I just have three requests (pleas) that I ask you to consider:

1) If your intention is to degrade the logistics capability of 00 empires, then there has to be a gray area between what is proposed and the status quo. Provide jump freighters with some additional range and/or capacity so they actually have a purpose. As it stands, they become virtually useless for sov holding alliances with an escorted freighter becoming superior in almost every way. I would rather have the full fatigue apply to jump freighters than the full range reduction proposed. The resulting impact to the Eve economy cannot be understated.

2) If your intention is to force regional play and regional economies, then look at the underlying industry and infrastructure first to make sure that is supports that vision. Amarr medium towers need to be able to support a simple reaction (3x silos + 1x simple reactor). Currently that's impossible and forces anyone living in Amarr flavored 00 space to import ice products to run reactions, or operate simple reactions at a significant financial loss. Also, moon mineral distribution does not support T2 production within each region. As it stands, Delve provides materials that are used in Gallente ship production, but has Amarr ice and Amarr flavored relic/data sites. Moon minerals need to be redistributed in order to support regional T2 production that corresponds to the racial technology available in that area. Even if an alliance doesn't hold an entire region, it should be able to trade with others in that region to facilitate this. They should not be forced to source product from the other side of the galaxy.

3) The Rorqual's role was marginalized in Crius with the addition of compression arrays. We were told leading up to Crius that a role change for Rorquals was coming soon(tm). We are now going into our second release since Crius without any further communication on this. If there is a role change for the Rorqual forthcoming, then let's hear it and make sure the jump drive changes make sense given the new role.

Our angle is that we care about objective game balance, regardless of who it benefits or hurts.  -Goonswarm 2014

davet517
Raata Invicti
#6583 - 2014-10-04 16:17:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Which is why this is a dumb idea. CCP should (in my laymen outsider's opinion) always concentrate of giving people more tools to counter stuff with rather than trying to nerf their way to specific outcomes.


They have to do both. If they only addressed something that's OP (like the ability to project power all over the map) in the game by introducing a counter to them, you'd get "mudflation". That's how we ended up with Titans in the first place. They were trying to provide a counter to blobs of battleships. Pretty soon, the weapons at the top end are so powerful that they completely decimate anyone who doesn't have them.

So yeah, they could introduce some tools that would provide a counter to force projection. AOE weapons that rendered a fleet's jump and warp drives inoperable for a while would be an idea. If you made such a weapon too accessible, though, nobody would be going anywhere, because it'd be a griefer's delight. Make it only accessible to those with lots of isk, and you've probably made matters worse.

I don't think they have a specific outcome in mind here other than keeping the powers that be from being able to project a Titan and SC blob across the map and back again at will. I'm sure they've succeeded at that. What effect that will have will depend on the players. It opens up the opportunity for smaller entities to grab space, if, and only if, enough of them decide to do it at the same time. We'll have to wait and see if that happens.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6584 - 2014-10-04 16:19:24 UTC
Pistonbroke wrote:
I wonder about just how much of this change revolves around "giving them what they have asked for" petulance from CCP, and how much is about trying to combat falling subscription numbers by forcing even more alts on people.

The concept of reducing the ludicrous ability to cross eve in 10minutes flat, I applaud.

The approach, however is so overdone it's like cooking a steak with a flamethrower and napalm, until it's carbonized, when the customer asked for medium rare, but could probably live with medium.

CCP please recognise that this level of negative feedback probably has some rational grounding. Go and rethink, then come back with your homework redone; please don't force us to have 10 accounts just to move the stuff we need from Jita to our bases in null.


They didn't go far enough. They should have deleted the cyno entirely.

But we'll take what we can get.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6585 - 2014-10-04 16:22:00 UTC
davet517 wrote:


What they weren't taking into consideration is that the average 0.0 dweller doesn't really want to fight. othing will change.


This meme is so tired and lame. It's on the surface obviously untrue if you look at any actual numbers:

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats/2014-09

Null is much more sparsely populated than highsec or lowsec but has about exactly the same amount of deaths and activity. That means 0.0 players *love* fighting.

All the "nullbears" and other butthurt that goes on is coming from a bunch of lowsec pirates who are scared of bubbles, otherwise they would be pirating in nullsec and drinking all those "nullbear" tears. Because the reality is holding sov doesn't really give that strong an advantage over the non-sov holding roaming gang as long as you don't try to play station games with the defenders. It's not like the defenders can install gate guns or whatever.

So if null bears are so weak at pvp and low sec pirates are so strong you would expect to see the lowsec pirates pwning the null bears constantly.

But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6586 - 2014-10-04 16:27:29 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
gascanu wrote:

dude, i want what you are smoking, really." topology of new eden will change overnight?" why? will a star explode or somethig?
eve map the day after this patch will be the same as the map of the previous day;
"that this will happen is a certainty" - are you some sort of nostradamus now? even ccp have no ideea how things will evolve, and they admited it openly, but hey if you say so...

and on the second part you are again wrong: importing from jita will still be the best way for the large alliances; they have the entry points to 0.0 and the have allot of titans to bridge their freighters around; at the most, this will cost them 1-2h/week when they will need 5-6 titans online to bridge those freighters; it's just that simple Roll

Mate, you have no idea what you're talking about.

Say I want to jump from Stain to lowsec, there's only 2 station systems in stain that can make that jump NRT4 and T-NN. Cut jump distance to 5 LY and stain becomes inaccessible from empire without going through sov space or wormholes. That is an example of a massive topological change, one that will affect all of the player living in that particular region, and those types of topological changes will occur all over eve on day 1 of phoebe.

If you're ignorant of something, it's best not to resort to insults as your first option.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
Insidious.
#6587 - 2014-10-04 16:28:04 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
with that being said I have faith that CCP will continue driving forward with their vision of making this game balanced for new players and retain more kinder new players who wouldn't want to run out and Hot drop supers on lets say 1 freaking lone cruiser!!!!!!... so debate about it till your finger tips falls off.. bring up the past as you want to.. Onward to the Future... as CCP once said.. THERE IS NO TURNING BACK


Well, it's probably quite easy to turn back. It's not like they are demolishing a church to build a tesco. If the absolute worst happens on the scale of incarna then a few heads roll and they turn the ship around again.
Jobbered
Lost Legion Of Death
Help Newbes Find a Way Alliance
#6588 - 2014-10-04 16:28:35 UTC
It is amusing watching pdople talk of stagnation. This is going to force more stagnation on the game. Anyone remember a little thing called world war one. Trench warfare ring a bell? This will force everyone to dig in where they are and you will have large swaths of no mans land between heavily defended areas. This was only broken by mobiliy. Mobility is now being taken away. They say those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We are going to have front row seats.......
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6589 - 2014-10-04 16:28:39 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
That means 0.0 players *love* fighting.

All the "nullbears" and other butthurt that goes on is coming from a bunch of lowsec pirates who are scared of bubbles,

But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.


Hahahahahaha

*breathe*

Ahahahahahah

People with SKILL fly in lowsec
F1 monkeys fly in null

There is bleedover and exceptions between the two, but my 10+ years in both have shown that to be fairly accurate statement.

Tjese changes may very well make null more attractive to those skilled that have no desire for being in a 250 man gang neccesitating participation.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Operative X10-4
Doomheim
#6590 - 2014-10-04 16:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Operative X10-4
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.

FOREVER PIRATE 07 FLY DANGEROUSLY.

Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6591 - 2014-10-04 16:30:27 UTC
Jobbered wrote:
It is amusing watching pdople talk of stagnation. This is going to force more stagnation on the game. Anyone remember a little thing called world war one. Trench warfare ring a bell? This will force everyone to dig in where they are and you will have large swaths of no mans land between heavily defended areas. This was only broken by mobiliy. Mobility is now being taken away. They say those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We are going to have front row seats.......


WORLD WAR ONE SHEEPLE!!!!

This thread just keeps it coming Lol

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6592 - 2014-10-04 16:31:44 UTC
davet517 wrote:

So yeah, they could introduce some tools that would provide a counter to force projection. AOE weapons that rendered a fleet's jump and warp drives inoperable for a while would be an idea. If you made such a weapon too accessible, though, nobody would be going anywhere, because it'd be a griefer's delight. Make it only accessible to those with lots of isk, and you've probably made matters worse.




Wait wait ... that's an interesting idea... what would you call something that could stop long distance travel, both warp and jump, and was area of effect... almost like a scram but in a wider area ... its sort of like blockading something... or... maybe... its like interdicting... maybe you could call it an interdictor?

But you're right that would be really too OP to allow in the game.

Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6593 - 2014-10-04 16:33:28 UTC
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.


That used to be a thing.

People would even run decoy freighters with the legit in hopes of getting the legit through. It wont quite work that way this time around but should still be interesting. Moreso than now anyways.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

SanDooD
Perkone
Caldari State
#6594 - 2014-10-04 16:33:32 UTC  |  Edited by: SanDooD
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why are so many of you too naive to see this?

Probably because many are of the opinion that anything to shake up the meta is better than the utter stagnation we have now?


And how exactly is that going to happen with these changes? The reason for the very stagnation we're experiencing right now is due to other "changes" CCP made in the past that forced larger entities to take up more space and turn it into renter empires. Cause and effect.

"Big fights are cool, but they’re crowding out more accessible and more frequent smaller ones."

So, at CCP, Big Ship = Big Fight? I applaud this line of reasoning.

Here is what this change will do IMHO:
1. Make people get more alts (more subscriptions) because we'll need more cyno alts as well as spare capital pilot/jumper toon so your main doesn't get fatigued to hell
2. Make fights the kind of we've seen in B-R almost impossible thus relieving some of the complaints about pisspoor single threaded server code from more than a decade ago.
3. Cause many people to give up hope and quit this junkyard of a sandbox, causing population to dwindle even more. Mind you, a lot of new players aspire to fly capital ship. With this proposed change you're not only screwing current pilots, but crushing hopes, dreams and aspirations of new player. Good luck promoting your litterbox with big supercapital engagements after this.
4. Make it appear like CCP is doing something

You want to shake things up? Introduce new type of very valuable resource present in only certain regions. Make it inefficient to hold big space vs. holding smaller, richer space.

Change jump drive to shake null sec? This is a joke. If the collaboration of "null developers" produced this, I abandon all hope that this game will ever be anything more than "Skill Points Online".
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#6595 - 2014-10-04 16:34:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why are so many of you too naive to see this?

Probably because many are of the opinion that anything to shake up the meta is better than the utter stagnation we have now?


Ah, the same thinking (that ANYTHING was better than shooting POSes for SOV)that saddled us with Dominion SOV in the 1st place.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. This is why old folks look at you crazy when a younger person says "well, it can't get any worse".

Yes, Yes it can.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6596 - 2014-10-04 16:36:27 UTC
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.


This actually used to be what happened before JF were introduced. Back before JF were introduced people *still* didn't locally produce in null. But they did long boring freighter escorts as a CTA constantly. It was horribly boring and caused null to be a empty wasteland of boredom.

Now realize they're not removing JF from the game, they're just making it harder to reach distant systems. So why would people supplying a market decide to take the most risky possible route? Wouldn't the sov holders just move their base of operations to the most easily accessible logistically? Isn't that simpler than creating a whole home grown industry or flying T1 freighters through gates?

Right now home systems are picked for their military ability to project or proximity to tasty PVE. That calculus doesn't include that much consideration for logistics. The balance of the equation will change slightly, so you'll see more concentration near highsec and much much less dispersion throughout nullsec regions. You'll see calcified and entrenched home systems and empty regions.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#6597 - 2014-10-04 16:36:58 UTC
Pistonbroke wrote:
I wonder about just how much of this change revolves around "giving them what they have asked for" petulance from CCP, and how much is about trying to combat falling subscription numbers by forcing even more alts on people.

The concept of reducing the ludicrous ability to cross eve in 10minutes flat, I applaud.

The approach, however is so overdone it's like cooking a steak with a flamethrower and napalm, until it's carbonized, when the customer asked for medium rare, but could probably live with medium.

CCP please recognise that this level of negative feedback probably has some rational grounding. Go and rethink, then come back with your homework redone; please don't force us to have 10 accounts just to move the stuff we need from Jita to our bases in null.



Well said. Now I want a steak.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6598 - 2014-10-04 16:37:29 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why are so many of you too naive to see this?

Probably because many are of the opinion that anything to shake up the meta is better than the utter stagnation we have now?


Ah, the same thinking that ANYTHING was better than shooting POSes for SOV that saddled us with Dominion SOV in the 1st place.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. This is why old folks look at you crazy when a younger person says "well, it can't get any worse".

Yes, Yes it can.

But dominion sov was (and is) better than pos sov. So that "type of thinking" did yield an improvement.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6599 - 2014-10-04 16:38:50 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
People with SKILL fly in lowsec
*cough* bullshit *cough*
Lowsec players tell themselves they have skill when they are patting themselves on the back for ganking noobs on their first trip into lowsec. Most lowsec fights start off with a guy screaming "GOT TACKLE" and end with his 20 mates jumping in and annihilating someone. At least in null you know beforehand that there's a blob of us.

Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#6600 - 2014-10-04 16:39:23 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
with that being said I have faith that CCP will continue driving forward with their vision of making this game balanced for new players and retain more kinder new players who wouldn't want to run out and Hot drop supers on lets say 1 freaking lone cruiser!!!!!!... so debate about it till your finger tips falls off.. bring up the past as you want to.. Onward to the Future... as CCP once said.. THERE IS NO TURNING BACK


Well, it's probably quite easy to turn back. It's not like they are demolishing a church to build a tesco. If the absolute worst happens on the scale of incarna then a few heads roll and they turn the ship around again.




lol..greyscale will add a cooldown timer on that as well like a buffer zone with snakeskin cloak animation