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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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davet517
Raata Invicti
#6541 - 2014-10-04 15:19:11 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:



We do know what will happen, yourselves, CFC and NC will keep the agreements you have and life will continue as normal.

I have seen a number of posts from PL members supporting this and I am not surprised as it makes you even stronger.


You seem to know more about how we're taking this change than I do, so I guess I'll have to defer to your superior insider information, and continue preparing for how to adapt.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6542 - 2014-10-04 15:19:37 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Yss, it will not change the power that current entities have, it will not give smaller entities a chance to take Sov and it will only hurt smaller groups

What smaller entities are you talking about, exactly?


All these smaller entities that people think are suddenly going to magically appear out of nowhere and do something

"Think of the little guy" is a red herring used by large entities when they don't like a change.

Smaller entities do not hold sov now. They will not hold sov after these changes. As long as the 2 coalitions exist, no smaller entity will truly be able to "take" sov. The impact this change will have on smaller entities is irrelevant, because sov-taking smaller entities do not and will not exist.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6543 - 2014-10-04 15:21:21 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
But 98% percent of you doomsayers werent around to see how good this game was prior to power projection, so I suppose you can only be faulted so much for your lack of vision and inability to think outside of the current meta.
And if they were going back in time and not implementing force projection, you might have a point. They are reducing it, not removing it, and they are doing so at a time when the vast majority of null is held by 2 groups who are heavily fortified. It won't just be the same as old EVE.


Durrr, you dont say?
Because everyone totally thought it was possible to turn back a clock Roll

Nothing you said precludes the likelihood these changes are moving in the right direction
Roll Grow up kid. The simple fact is that because EVE existed without power projection before doesn't mean that these changes are good. It;s understandable that you seem to have a distinct lack of knowledge about, well, about EVE in general, so you are going to just sit around insulting people and saying whatever random thought pops into your head. The main thing is though that what these changes aim to accomplish, they will not accomplish that, they will make the game more tedious and change next to nothing about the current state of null.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Prince Kobol
#6544 - 2014-10-04 15:21:46 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:



We do know what will happen, yourselves, CFC and NC will keep the agreements you have and life will continue as normal.

I have seen a number of posts from PL members supporting this and I am not surprised as it makes you even stronger.


You seem to know more about how we're taking this change than I do, so I guess I'll have to defer to your superior insider information, and continue preparing for how to adapt.


Then you need pay more attention in corp chat Big smile
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#6545 - 2014-10-04 15:21:57 UTC
davet517 wrote:
You seem to know more about how we're taking this change than I do, so I guess I'll have to defer to your superior insider information, and continue preparing for how to adapt.

Maybe you can enlighten us on how the strategic status quo will change?
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#6546 - 2014-10-04 15:22:09 UTC
This is the most amazing change of all time, including Incarna.

I love it.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Prince Kobol
#6547 - 2014-10-04 15:24:47 UTC
Glathull wrote:
This is the most amazing change of all time, including Incarna.

I love it.


Remind me again how Incarna worked out for subscriptions
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6548 - 2014-10-04 15:25:08 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want".
Well Steve Jobs was a moron, so I'd take anything he said with a pinch of salt.

davet517 wrote:
It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.
Well then they need to hire better staff, since players have predicted the response to almost every change that's ever been made with staggering accuracy.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Shuckstar
Blue Dreams Plus
#6549 - 2014-10-04 15:26:41 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
all I want to know is..where the hell are my firesale caps at? Not seeing market slumps or buy/sell going of the hook

All you emo rage quiting players need to keep your promises and firesail your stuff off in the process.


No not fire sale, trash and biomass your char if people are really going to leave get there chars and shiny items out of the game for good, make's any shiny stuff i may have even more valuable Big smile. Truth be told most who say there unsubbing will only unsub. They will keep there assets and chars and resub when all this rage stuff goes away. This game so damn addictive and yeah i remember doing freighter convoys in NORAD and Forsaken Empire.

I don't like the fatigue changes but I'm not quitting I'm rolling with the punches. Blink

Also please don't post no more anyone Greyscale has already said that anything beyond page 200 is useless and not worth reading...

CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"

Prince Kobol
#6550 - 2014-10-04 15:27:22 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
davet517 wrote:
Steve Jobs once said "It's not the customer's job to know what they want".
Well Steve Jobs was a moron, so I'd take anything he said with a pinch of salt.

davet517 wrote:
It's applicable here. Eve is a sandbox folks. The game play is emergent. When CCP makes a change like this, they can't predict with great accuracy what will happen. They might have a theory about what players will do, but they have no facts. No matter how smart you think you are, you have no facts either. Your theory may differ from theirs.
Well then they need to hire better staff, since players have predicted the response to almost every change that's ever been made with staggering accuracy.


Well.. the CFC have that is for sure Big smile
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#6551 - 2014-10-04 15:28:54 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Yss, it will not change the power that current entities have, it will not give smaller entities a chance to take Sov and it will only hurt smaller groups

What smaller entities are you talking about, exactly?


All these smaller entities that people think are suddenly going to magically appear out of nowhere and do something

"Think of the little guy" is a red herring used by large entities when they don't like a change.

Smaller entities do not hold sov now. They will not hold sov after these changes. As long as the 2 coalitions exist, no smaller entity will truly be able to "take" sov. The impact this change will have on smaller entities is irrelevant, because sov-taking smaller entities do not and will not exist.



This is not true. "Think of the little guy" is used by people with anterior motives when they want something for themselves. It has nothing at all to do with big or small.

That's why you and so many others are missing the point. For some of us, individual loss or gain is irrelevant. I lost after the heavy missile nerf and the tracking enhancer nerfs because I use Machs and Tengus to make isk with. But those were still good nerfs.

This time, we see CCP doing something that they probably mean to do in good faith. But like so many other things they've done, it will backfire and make the situation WORSE. If what they were doing was really going to 'nerf' big groups and make for a more fun environment, people Like Kobol and me would be all for it, because it would make for a more fun video game.

I hate that CCP is still following a provably failed line of thinking about things instead of doing the things that might really help make things more fun (and encourage smaller groups rather than big ones). To do this they need to take things into account that they usually don't: human nature, human creativity, the past, the 'meta' (like alt accounts) etc etc.
BuddyKnife
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6552 - 2014-10-04 15:32:17 UTC  |  Edited by: BuddyKnife
Aiyshimin wrote:
BuddyKnife wrote:


Why are you commenting on the status of null when you only pvp in wormholes and lowsec?


Because that's where all the PVP currently is. Maybe I'd be interested in null if something actually happened there? Think about it.


If you want null pvp join brave they are always doing things.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#6553 - 2014-10-04 15:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
X Gallentius wrote:

Maybe you can enlighten us on how the strategic status quo will change?


I don't know. Nobody does. It's going to depend on what players do.

IF (and its a big if) individual alliances (and god forbid, renters) start declaring independence all over the map and tearing down the infrastructure of their overlords, this change will make it damn hard for those overlords to stop them. Just can't project overwhelming force everywhere at once anymore. The best you can do is try to stomp one upstart at a time, but any upstart with half a brain will know that all they have to do is wait, and retake everything once the overlord has moved on.

IF (and this is just as likely) everyone wants to continue to hold hands and sing kum-by-yah, this change won't stop them. In that scenario, you're going to see little guys getting periodically curb stomped with impunity, because they won't be able to call for aid from the other side of the map and get it in time.

Either one of those things could happen. Neither of them could happen. That's why they call it emergent game play. We'll have to wait and see what players actually do in adapting to these changes.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#6554 - 2014-10-04 15:33:49 UTC
I've been saying this stuff for a long time. The fine folks at CCP need to realize certain things if they want to stop exploding mine fields. You can't please everyone, but causing these kinds of firestorms is just as dumb as trying to please everyone.

My post in the CSM null summit thread:

Jenn aSide wrote:
Good luck with everything, It will be interesting to see what comes out of this.

I only have 2 suggestions, about the discussion not about sov:

#1. Read this article...

Quote:
In his TED Talk on spaghetti sauces, Malcolm Gladwell argues that the food industry made a big mistake asking people about their preferences and conducting focus groups. Gladwell says that “The mind knows not what the tongue wants. […] If I asked all of you, for example, in this room, what you want in a coffee, you know what you’d say? Every one of you would say ‘I want a dark, rich, hearty roast.’ It’s what people always say when you ask them what they want in a coffee. What do you like? Dark, rich, hearty roast! What percentage of you actually like a dark, rich, hearty roast? According to Howard, somewhere between 25 and 27 percent of you. Most of you like milky, weak coffee. But you will never, ever say to someone who asks you what you want — that ‘I want a milky, weak coffee.’”


People always think they know what they want, but many times people are just being idealistic about themselves. What they say they want (and what would be fun) and what players will actually play are 2 different things.

Consider actual human nature during your summit (one thing to consider, as in rela life, so in game: people don't fight over tings they can just buy). Look at the past, see what people REALLY do vs what they say or think they will do.

#2. Do not over-react to the current situation! . Understand it, sure, but don't think there is any easy fix. You will hear a lot of "fix this one thing and everything will be fine" talk. Don't believe it lol.

Years ago I played a game called mechwarrior 3. It was cool, but because it was based on a board game's theory of balance, certain weapons (when put in a real time situation) were insanely overpowered such as small lasers and short ranged missiles lol. So the developers of Mech4 prenerfed the unbalanced things in their game, causing a vicious swing to imbalance the other way around (snipers, snipers and more snipers).

This is relevant here because in this thread you are going to get a LOT of thinking based on hatred of Goons, Big alliances, Coalitions, the 'blue donut', Capital and Super Capital ships, power projection and all the (truly or falsely percieved) problems of current null. The risk is that over-reacting to these percieved problems might end up making things even worse, in the way that (Super lame and Grindy) Dominion SOV ended up being an over-reaction to the (super lame actually less grindy) system it replaced.

Again, good luck with the summit.
BuddyKnife
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6555 - 2014-10-04 15:33:54 UTC
davet517 wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:

Maybe you can enlighten us on how the strategic status quo will change?


I don't know. Nobody does. It's going to depend on what players do.

IF (and its a big if) individual alliances (and god forbid, renters) start declaring independence all over the map and tearing down the infrastructure of their overlords, this change will make it damn hard for those overlords to stop them. Just can't be everywhere at once anymore. The best you can do is try to stomp one upstart at a time, but any upstart with half a brain will know that all they have to do is wait, and retake everything once the overlord has moved on.

IF (and this is just as likely) everyone wants to continue to hold hands and sing kum-by-yah, this change won't stop them. In that scenario, you're going to see little guys getting periodically curb stomped with impunity, because they won't be able to call for aid from the other side of the map and get it in time.

Either one of those things could happen. Neither of them could happen. That's why they call it emergent game play. We'll have to wait and see what players actually do in adapting to these changes.


Umm... We do.
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#6556 - 2014-10-04 15:35:30 UTC
im actually shocked by some of the epic levels of rage on this thread, so what rage quit all you want to. .drag up the past as much as you want to. foam at the mouth as much as you want to.. this new era of the game doesn't need griefers and whine-bears like you. just deal with it..

with that being said I have faith that CCP will continue driving forward with their vision of making this game balanced for new players and retain more kinder new players who wouldn't want to run out and Hot drop supers on lets say 1 freaking lone cruiser!!!!!!... so debate about it till your finger tips falls off.. bring up the past as you want to.. Onward to the Future... as CCP once said.. THERE IS NO TURNING BACK NOW!!!!


Greyscale you have my prayers buddy I may not like it.. I may even foam at the mouth on your twisted way (sadistic way sometimes) of adding timers.. but i'll deal with it.... Carry On..


Threaten to Cancel, Quit, what ever.. i'll finally inform my friends that eve online is finally getting some things fixed and corrected and the bad people are leaving.. bye bye go ruin someone else's game.. if you wanna try it.. lol

its about time!.. its totally about time that CCP struck back!

Eve Online: Phoebe..aka Attack of the Devs! muahahahahahahahahahahah
davet517
Raata Invicti
#6557 - 2014-10-04 15:38:09 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:


Umm... We do.


Of course you do, but then, you are internet spaceship masterminds. Not everyone can be that.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6558 - 2014-10-04 15:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Jenn aSide wrote:
But like so many other things they've done, it will backfire and make the situation WORSE.

I see. It's a shame I never trained prescience to V. Would've been really useful to know how massive emergent systems with thousands of interconnected parts behave under a given set of changes.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#6559 - 2014-10-04 15:39:22 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

PotatoOverdose wrote:
How many "small" null groups are their really? There are maybe 4 in the galactic east, and a handful in the galactic west. The ones in the east occasionally poke someone and do something minutely noticeable. The ones on the western half mostly farm in stain.

IMO the notion that smaller entities will be able to "take" sov while the two large coalitions still exist is a red herring that people use when they don't like a particular set of changes. "But think of the little guy" my-ass.
Very true. So that being the case, who is this benefiting? Or is it change just so that something has changed, regardless of who or what is affected? Seems a bit pointless in that regard. Overall I think the game will become slightly more tedious and slightly less fun.

In the short term, conflicts will arise due to the fact that the entire topology of new eden changed overnight. That this will happen is a certainty. Predicting the medium to long term is difficult because CCP still has at least 2 major changes planned of which we know quite little.

Less certain but still possible: the priorities of large alliances between local industry and logistics may shift as importing from Jita via JF is no longer the magic silver bullet that solves all of your supply problems. Local industry and mining provide additional targets for local entities.

dude, i want what you are smoking, really." topology of new eden will change overnight?" why? will a star explode or somethig?
eve map the day after this patch will be the same as the map of the previous day;
"that this will happen is a certainty" - are you some sort of nostradamus now? even ccp have no ideea how things will evolve, and they admited it openly, but hey if you say so...

and on the second part you are again wrong: importing from jita will still be the best way for the large alliances; they have the entry points to 0.0 and the have allot of titans to bridge their freighters around; at the most, this will cost them 1-2h/week when they will need 5-6 titans online to bridge those freighters; it's just that simple Roll
davet517
Raata Invicti
#6560 - 2014-10-04 15:40:55 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
I've been saying this stuff for a long time. The fine folks at CCP need to realize certain things if they want to stop exploding mine fields. You can't please everyone, but causing these kinds of firestorms is just as dumb as trying to please everyone.


There isn't a single significant change that they could make that wouldn't cause a nerd-rage firestorm. A significant change, by definition, is disruptive. People with stakes in the status quo don't like disruption.