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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Selexid
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2821 - 2014-10-02 08:35:32 UTC
bigman111222 wrote:
Selexid wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Everything hurts the smaller guys more than the big ones as you have both the manpower and the isk to absorb any problems better than they do.


So how is this nerf to logistics a good thing then?



Its a good thing because if you want to supply 1000 megas you need 10 dudes or more as opposed to 2-3.

So if you want to be big you will have to work a bit more. The little guy will be able to supply his 100 megas easier.

@ the current time it doesnt matter if you haul 1 or 1000 megas; it still take same time and effort.


Have you ever seen the CFC changing staging system. Effort aint a thing.
Also a JF dnt hold 1000s of megas.

I see a future were we have multiple JF alts.


Which is absolutely fine.

But would be a bit easier to be a smaller entity who doesnt have to haul 1000 megas don't you think?
Aakkonen
Rift Watch
#2822 - 2014-10-02 08:35:34 UTC
Looking for more nullers quitting game Lol more space for me Pirate

Bad Jokes since -09.... Fly Safe! o7
Darth Mouse
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2823 - 2014-10-02 08:37:00 UTC
Quote:
...it seems plausible that the general reduction in travel capabilities will lead to more localism, but we don't want to make any firm predictions in this area.


I fail to see how this will happen since you've made each "zone" have different ores and salvage and loot tables, so to be effective a corp needs to import or hold a region in each zone....

Example:

Branch is gurista land - so lots of shield mods and rail guns (lets not get into poor salvage). So a localised economy means well be forced into rare shipments of Armour / Laser stuff, and trying to build locally. Which works fine for tech 1 ... but tech 2 stuff requires different "goo" - and rigs will require some salvage that doesnt drop up here.

Non-generic economies only work when people can trade - Even with the 90% reduced nerf, trade is still having to log off and play the new Elite game after 4-5 jumps! Being able to use a gate is nice .. but considering Motherships and possibly titans can now gate camp and play gate games... thats fun.


Additionally, does this not mean massive coalitions only really need to guard the first 5ly of systems between Hi-sec and Null.
Since that'll stop new people from breaking into their space, any attacks in the "deeper rear" space will need massive co-ordination... and a logistics wing that doesnt time out after 4 jumps to fuel it...
Selexid
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2824 - 2014-10-02 08:37:02 UTC
Alex Pier wrote:
Well the average 5-10 hour a week player is going to hurt more... If I need to move my stuff from A to B and I need 2 hours for 5 jumps with a carrier I am simply not going to do it. Also People will need to create more cyno alts for the same route, so again teh average player will not be able to cope... Not being able to do part of their gameplay people will simply leave the game.

Also how is this going to "revamp" 0.0 when traveling to and from 0.0 can take days????

I though CCP wanted to atract more players not loose the existing player base....

Well it was fun playing EvE, now it is going to become a chore to the point that lot of people will stop playing.... Pitty...



Maybe, just maybe you were not supposed to instantly reach B if it requires 5 CYNO jumps.
chaosjj
Doomheim
#2825 - 2014-10-02 08:37:23 UTC
When will these changes hit Singularity?
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2826 - 2014-10-02 08:38:02 UTC
Aakkonen wrote:
Looking for more nullers quitting game Lol more space for me Pirate


Good luck moving your stuff out there. Unless you plan to take a JF or Carrier through a gate.
Squiggy Florida
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
#2827 - 2014-10-02 08:39:16 UTC
I've been playing this game on and off for a while now. Heck I remember when can-mining was the thing to do, and being an industrial pilot meant, well, you literally flew industrials around ferrying things. 15km from a gate was just they way it was. We didn't cry about it, we just dealt with it, we found a way around it just like we will with this.

Now, we are changing jumps.

CCP, please, for gods sakes listen to the few none-QQ'ers here.

If your goal is to lower projection, then lower the mass and/or number of ships a cyno can hold (you can even add skills to effect this). OR, a but more complicated, use a mass over time limit for systems. If a cyno has X mass move thru it, add a timer before X mass can be moved into it again. Make a iHUB upgrade even, so you can make that a null-sec issue, one that can be altered by the sov.

If your goal is to make the distance mean something, then, leave the timer. Heck, I think if you just said "We are adding a timer to your jumps, here is the math...." most of us would shrug and work around it. But, a timer AND limiting all ships to 5ly? Come on. I already didn't understand why you still have JDC, since you need level 4 for most caps. Leave the distances alone. Let us decide to timer/reward for the distance.

The idea of allowing us to ignore fatigue for return trip? Forget that. That's just people QQing about BLOPS. Maybe have BLOPS reduced like jf/rorq, but based on blop skill? And pass that "savings" on to thier portals. They are suppose to be used to move about quietly...one jump and done ain't gonna work for that.


As someone said, piece-mealing this is a bad idea. Maybe this will work with future changes, but as things are, it doesn't/won't work. To much, to quick. Let people adjust to the idea of a timer....then change the ranges, then move on to the next change. The idea of a 6 week cycles was for things like this, no?

REMEMBER THE MONOCLE
Anthar Thebess
#2828 - 2014-10-02 08:39:44 UTC
This will be grate.
People in stain are already discussing where to put local trade hub, and how we can produce stuff to supply members in weapons and ships.

Old people who waked up after long absence are laughing at "new guys" that they should try to play eve when there was no JF , Jump Bridge etc.

Logistic is already planed using WH connections , and as you can easily find in a region wh that will lead to lowsec or a higsec whole logistic will be done this way.

People will adapt easily T1 production is not the issue.
The only thing that could be a problem is T2 production, as people are still checking if there will be enough resources locally to produce necessary T2 equipment.

Good part that people are talking about eve again , and not about WOT or other games.

+1 for CCP again.

The only thing to reconsider CCP is the fatigue on BO.

(and if you still remember Roll )

Small gates that allow only cruisers class pass .
This size connection from every sov space to nearest NPC Space , and at the same time this kind of connection from regions like Stain to nearest Lowsec.

I really want to see fleets escorting bunch or transport ships by the gates!

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Sentenced 1989
#2829 - 2014-10-02 08:40:04 UTC
Alex Pier wrote:
Well the average 5-10 hour a week player is going to hurt more... If I need to move my stuff from A to B and I need 2 hours for 5 jumps with a carrier I am simply not going to do it. Also People will need to create more cyno alts for the same route, so again teh average player will not be able to cope... Not being able to do part of their gameplay people will simply leave the game.

Also how is this going to "revamp" 0.0 when traveling to and from 0.0 can take days????

I though CCP wanted to atract more players not loose the existing player base....

Well it was fun playing EvE, now it is going to become a chore to the point that lot of people will stop playing.... Pitty...


Have you actually considered of moving your cyno ahead while you wait for your fatigue timer to drop off?
Some of us only have 1-2 cyno's available anyways, and we adopted to it

God forbid you can't get stuff from Jita every 6 hours, god forbid you actually make some stuff locally instead of hauling it back from highsec, and god forbid you actually adapt to a good change and use capitals somewhat locally.
Why would they be able to cross vast space in short time. You can still react and drop them close by for defense, if you want to attack something somewhere far out, then commit them. Why would you be able to hit enemy hard and then lose **** back home since you can't just turn them around at first sign of trouble?

Adapt to it, changes will be good and fun. Hell, I should be pissed to, I've spent last 2 months perfecting blopses on 3 accounts, and now what, I can't use them to hotdrop that much, so what, **** it, still game will be better without having to worry about batphones everywhere everytime.

The Incursion Guild

Epic Arc Guide
bigman111222
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#2830 - 2014-10-02 08:44:34 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
Thinking about this CCP could you clarify a couple of things;

1. If titans can Supers can use gates will they also be allowed to dock in stations Question
2. If DDs work in lowsec, will certain structures be given some protection from them? i.e FW I.Hubs Question (worst thing that could happen in a bit entity decides to join FW and just alphas every I.Hub with DDs and due to the jump lag now no one is able to move fast enough to catch them Attention
3. By allowing carriers to go through gates i think all of the changes you have tried to apply to the Nestor are now a complete waste, do you have anything in the pipeline to allow the Nestor to be worth it again Question


1 = no chance

2= Pretty sure titans cant DD structures

3= no one cares about the Nestor, Dnt think CCP Greyscale thought of that once when picking ideas out of thin air
KanashiiKami
#2831 - 2014-10-02 08:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: KanashiiKami
come to think of it, im interested to know what sparked this change ...

in some cases, it is said CSM sat down with DEVs to discuss or exchange ideas ...

1) by explaining the spark that fired a trail of reasons leading to this change, maybe some pilots who are NOT represented by CSM can have some say for or against some ideas offered by CSM. (CSM does not represent every player, that why DEVs are discussing the change in threads so that MORE players can be involved right?)

2) while a change may not mirror what every player wants, i think the aim of a change, the idea of it should be a discussion subject, instead of the change which is decided. ie : a 500 pointer of what could be changed open to to threaded discussion, and then being sorted and maybe even voted (via per physical person count, not via in game avatar count). i think in that 500 pointers there is a point where CCP needs to make profits via subs.

3) we do not know how much CSM may have imposed/suggested changes that are politically motivated in game. and i think DEV should not "offer" changes due to these, but however, due to the nature of this game being already having a history of being biased, we will all never know wont we? but how would anyone know or not know if there are no lengthy discussions before opted changes?

when jump ranges are limited as such, overall strategy will favor the attacking fleet who is already amassed for offensive, defensives will now be always be at lousier odds (like they say, no more bat phone etc). so in this case, this jump drive mechanic will render more planned attacks to have success, and esp for swarms. again detrimental to small group game play. its like a change made to serve swarms. why feed the swarms even more?

with the increased biased towards more destruction, i hope there is more balancing also towards creation of things ...

What?

WUT ???
Lion DaGion
Space Commodities and Wares
#2832 - 2014-10-02 08:47:19 UTC
It amuses me to see people in 0.0 will finally be vulnerable. You have had it safe for your logistics far too long.

I remember the days way back when there were no jump bridges, jump drives, hell eve freighters. Logistics was an actual part of everyday 0.0 life.

By all means scream and cry your tears, finally the game might be what it was meant to be instead of the this blue mess of "super coalitions"

I think you should just quit ya whining, adapt to the situation, or leave. Either way just stfu you whining, self absorbed, bunch of entitled, little p***ks.

"Whaaa whaaa they changed jump mechanics and it makes me have to do something in game, whaaaaaa mommy tell the bad man to stop"
Alex Pier
Celestial Argonauts
#2833 - 2014-10-02 08:48:42 UTC
Sentenced 1989 wrote:
Alex Pier wrote:
Well the average 5-10 hour a week player is going to hurt more... If I need to move my stuff from A to B and I need 2 hours for 5 jumps with a carrier I am simply not going to do it. Also People will need to create more cyno alts for the same route, so again teh average player will not be able to cope... Not being able to do part of their gameplay people will simply leave the game.

Also how is this going to "revamp" 0.0 when traveling to and from 0.0 can take days????

I though CCP wanted to atract more players not loose the existing player base....

Well it was fun playing EvE, now it is going to become a chore to the point that lot of people will stop playing.... Pitty...


Have you actually considered of moving your cyno ahead while you wait for your fatigue timer to drop off?
Some of us only have 1-2 cyno's available anyways, and we adopted to it

God forbid you can't get stuff from Jita every 6 hours, god forbid you actually make some stuff locally instead of hauling it back from highsec, and god forbid you actually adapt to a good change and use capitals somewhat locally.
Why would they be able to cross vast space in short time. You can still react and drop them close by for defense, if you want to attack something somewhere far out, then commit them. Why would you be able to hit enemy hard and then lose **** back home since you can't just turn them around at first sign of trouble?

Adapt to it, changes will be good and fun. Hell, I should be pissed to, I've spent last 2 months perfecting blopses on 3 accounts, and now what, I can't use them to hotdrop that much, so what, **** it, still game will be better without having to worry about batphones everywhere everytime.


I do not disagree with your points, but if you want to cut the amount of hotdrops and the quick move of vast cap and super cap fleets, do it by means of max cynos per system, max caps/super caps per cyno etc. to name a few ideas. There are soem good things that might come out of this, like local market hubs, that big alliacnes will manipulate and you will have to pay 3 times the real value in ISK for stuff...

I still beleive that this wasn't thought well from CCP and it will cause a lot of small time player to leave the game. I hoep I am wrong cause I love EvE and its community.
Peter Powers
Terrorists of Dimensions
#2834 - 2014-10-02 08:49:01 UTC
...lets have a look through the crystal ball.

Lets assume in Winter there forms a new Coalition, made up by people who are fed up with the botlrd-stalemate, a problem that those large nullsec entities have created for themselves. Lets call them Hipster Kid Coalition for the course of this post. Hipster Kid Coalition is made up of a few veteran corporations/alliances as well as some people new to sov warfare, so you have vets in caps and new guys in support.

One fine day a CFC Member living in VFK forgets to pay their Sov bills. The leadership of Hipster Kid Coalition calls the coalition to arms to go for an surprise attack against the heart of the botlrd-participants - VFK-IV. Fully motivated, chanting "satan your kingdom must come down" they start charging towards their destination.

As their maximum bridge/jump range is now 5ly, they will have to take a route like:

-> Jan
1. Jump -> 4.267 ly MJI3-8
2. Jump -> 4.299 ly GIH-ZG
3. Jump -> 4.278 ly UR-E6D
4. Jump -> 4.282 ly TXME-A
5. Jump -> 3.512 ly VFK-IV

this is under an ideal-circumstances assumption, in reality they probably have to take more jumps (cyno jammers...)

with the fatigue mechanics, assuming no one ****** up, and so all start with empty fatigue this is:

1st Jump: estimated stay in MJI3-8: 1 minute + 4.27 minutes = 5.27 Minutes (5m16s) (reallity: more as the titans bridge first and then jump, so everyone has to wait for the fatigue of the last titan), after decay that leaves a fatigue of about 4.77.

2nd jump: estimated stay in GIH-7G: 4.77 * (1+4.3) = 25.281 Minutes (25m:16s), after decay 22.78.

3rd jump: estimated stay in UR-E6D: 22.78 * (1+4.28) = 120.2784 Minutes (2h:00m:16s), after decay about 118.

4th jump: estimated stay in TXME-A: 118 * (1+4.28) = 623.04 Minutes (10h23m:2s), after decay about 561.

final jump, leaving earliest jump escape to safe the fleet: 561 * (1 + 3.51) = 2530.11min (1d:17h...)


What does that mean:
Defender gains Advantage 1: he can block gates on the route to prevent conventional travel, we have seen this in the past, you just bubble up the gates and camp 'em to death, defender wins.
Defender gains Advantage 2: he will have a lot of time to organize if the hostile fleet uses jump travelling
Defender gains Advantage 3: cyno jammers are a lot more efficient now, as there are more systems that need jumping through more jammers need to be taken down to get through
Defender gains Advantage 4: capitals are now ships where timezone relevance is a lot higher through their cooldowns, and losing a fight might me a no-escape-scenario for the attacker.
Defender gains Advantage 5: **** ups during the travel will have a lot more impact, as they will cause a divergence on the timers of the capitals

The only option left for the attacker is to try to move his capitals on conventional travel using the jump drive to avoid one, maximum two blocks on the route.

To me the conclusion that this changes would actually make trench warfare worse, rather than to shake up nullsec seems quite obvious if you play out the scenario, and i really don't think
Quote:
We expect the impact of these changes to be emergent, and as a consequence are unpredictable and will take a while to develop on TQ

makes a good excuse for not looking into the problem.

Rather than buying into the myth of the force projection problem you guys should be looking into shaking up things by incentivicing attacking large entities (for example through rewards from the empires), and creating new toys that allows asynchronous warfare (against super blobs as well as against support-swarms).

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Mark Hadden
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2835 - 2014-10-02 08:49:24 UTC
love all the goon posting about how the changes wont affect them :D
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2836 - 2014-10-02 08:49:24 UTC
First of all, thanks to the CSM and all involved parties. I'm really looking forward to these changes and I hope they will get all of us to fight meaningful wars again, with lots of smallscale warfare without the usual "drop on" by some blob or third party.

Some things in general that I'd like to address that might be worth thinking about:

1. racial ice/fuel: With the upcoming changes it will be much harder to supply the right kind of fuel. It'd be a good idea to either create a more general isotope version that can be farmed anywhere in low/nullsec (which would be less effective than the racial isotopes) oooor distribute all ice variations in the regions at the same time.

2. production/moons: new distribution of moons for a more localized T2 invention and production, it will also avoid OTECs and so on. It might be worth taking a look at T2 bpc costs in general and maybe scale them down to make it easier to work with on a smaller level and might be a good chance to get rid of T2 bpos.

3. supercaps/caps on gates: bumpy bumpy bump? might be worth taking a look at bumping in general, too.

Just some things that came to mind. Love it, finally excited again about Eve ;-)
domino 8
League of Extraordinary Ratters
#2837 - 2014-10-02 08:50:43 UTC
Selexid wrote:

Fair enough; then you can haul 16 megas just as easy as 1 mega and its still better for the guy who has to haul less.

So in a way it is nerfing the blob, unless the blob will employ more logistics, which they should since they have the manpower. And the other blob wont be able to jump them with caps all the time:)

Overall, EvE wins.


Also gives the home town blob a lovely advantage.
Vailen Sere
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#2838 - 2014-10-02 08:50:52 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Can supers use gates after this change?
Yes.

Does this make it too difficult for new pilots to get out into 0.0?
Yes, it probably does. We are going to look at this tomorrow to try and make this easier.

Is the balance for Black Ops final?
No. Please give feedback!

The math about the minimum jump timer is inconsistent in the blog, right?
Yes, it is, I'll fix it as soon as I have time, thread's moving too fast atm!

Very large fatigue values will take a loooong time to decay, is this too much?
Possibly yes, we'll have a look at this.


All this does is make the big blok's have to increase the amount of cap's they have to keep ready all over the place " It will take too long to move now, so we need them here, here.." etc This changes nothing except the markets.

Limiting JF movement limits trade from 0.0.. effecting the market again.

What about Jump portal generator's on Titan's? Will all ships jump be effected by the fatigue? If not, why not just move more Titan's to increase strike range?

Who has Titan's and mom's again?

This only hurts the little guys (Like the fuel change last time). Big Alliances already have worked logistics around these changes.
Dalia Rensini
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2839 - 2014-10-02 08:51:08 UTC
QUOTE: Appendix A – Examples

Little Bobby Tables is sitting in his Archon in UJY-HE in at the top of Deklein, just after the Oceanus release. He wants to travel to Atioth, at the bottom of Geminate, which is around 50 LY as the space-crow flies. He consults a popular jump planning service, which gives him a route of four jumps and 53 LY. He’s travel fit and has max skills, so his jump range is 14.625 LY and he’s expecting to be limited primarily by the session change timer. The journey takes him around two minutes.

A month or so later, he’s back in UJY-HE, and Phoebe has just shipped. His Archon’s jump range is now 5 LY. He consults his jump planner, and finds that his route is now 12 jumps and 54 LY. He hasn’t jumped anywhere since the release, so he has no jump fatigue.

His first jump, of 4.85 LY, takes him to U-TJ7Y. Because he has no fatigue before the jump, he gains a minimum-length jump cooldown timer: 1 minute, plus 4.85 minutes for the distance travelled, for a total of 5.85 minutes, or 5 minutes 51 seconds. He also gains a jump fatigue value of 5.85.

He waits for just under six minutes. In this time his jump fatigue decays down to 5.27. He then makes his next jump – 3.57 LY to LEK-N5. He gets a 5 minute 16 second jump cooldown timer, because his fatigue was 5.27 when he jumped, and his minimum timer would be 4 minutes 34 seconds based on range travelled. He then gets a fatigue increase after the jump. Because he travelled 3.57 LY, his fatigue is multiplied by 4.57, taking it up to 24.06.

He waits out his timer, which also reduces his fatigue to 23.53. After his cooldown timer expires, he makes his third jump, to RO0-AF, a distance of 4.19 LY. He gains a jump cooldown timer of 23 minutes 32 seconds, and his fatigue is multiplied by 5.19, up to 122.14.

After waiting for 23.5 minutes at the convenient local station, his fatigue is down to 119.79. He jumps again, to 2R-CRW – 4.9 LY. At this point his cooldown timer is 2 hours 2 minutes 8 seconds, and his fatigue is 706.74. At this point his total distance travelled is 17.51 LY, leaving him with 37.04 LY to go. He looks at his map, and finds a 40-route jump through nullsec to get to the same destination, and figuring two minutes per system, his warp travel time for the whole journey is a bit over half the cooldown for his next jump. He decides to fly there directly rather than trying to jump any further.


RESULT: His Archon dies on the next date to a small gate camp. Well done CCP. And what the hell is with the medical clone nerf. So to travel to the other side of galaxy you are supposed to take gates, like 40 - 50 jumps takes absolutely forever especially in larger ships. Might as well just unsub all cap alt accounts now. GL with subsriptions revenue CCP.
Janus Nanzikambe
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2840 - 2014-10-02 08:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Janus Nanzikambe
Words can not express how much I love this change & the brave devs prepared to weather the backlash and rage this will inevitably cause. Big smile


TY!