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Crime & Punishment

 
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pushing for harder punishment on hi sec gankers

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Lady Areola Fappington
#661 - 2014-09-29 04:42:50 UTC
Here Veers, a few terms you need to google up and get numbers for. Rather than using a nebulous "ship prices" and "Plex", try the following.


Mineral Price Index
Primary Producer Price Index
Secondary Producer Price Index
Consumer Price Index.

That's a start, and don't forget to correlate CCP nerfs/buffs in there too, seeing as how we aren't dealing with a purely static system.



If you don't feel like hunting up the numbers, I'll drop you a hint. EVE has been operating under pretty steady inflation over the years (as shown by plex, which is generally untouched by CCP buff/nerf cycles). All those pretty swings you see on "ship prices" come from CCP actions.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#662 - 2014-09-29 05:23:32 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Here Veers, a few terms you need to google up and get numbers for. Rather than using a nebulous "ship prices" and "Plex", try the following.


Mineral Price Index
Primary Producer Price Index
Secondary Producer Price Index
Consumer Price Index.

That's a start, and don't forget to correlate CCP nerfs/buffs in there too, seeing as how we aren't dealing with a purely static system.



If you don't feel like hunting up the numbers, I'll drop you a hint. EVE has been operating under pretty steady inflation over the years (as shown by plex, which is generally untouched by CCP buff/nerf cycles). All those pretty swings you see on "ship prices" come from CCP actions.


I could do that...or I could just note that the inflation in plex prices has vastly outpaced the inflation in ship/mod prices. Which means that vis-a-vis $$$, eve is deflationary. That's what smart people do...they don't get lost in data, they just note the simple and relevant facts.
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#663 - 2014-09-29 07:19:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Here Veers, a few terms you need to google up and get numbers for. Rather than using a nebulous "ship prices" and "Plex", try the following.


Mineral Price Index
Primary Producer Price Index
Secondary Producer Price Index
Consumer Price Index.

That's a start, and don't forget to correlate CCP nerfs/buffs in there too, seeing as how we aren't dealing with a purely static system.



If you don't feel like hunting up the numbers, I'll drop you a hint. EVE has been operating under pretty steady inflation over the years (as shown by plex, which is generally untouched by CCP buff/nerf cycles). All those pretty swings you see on "ship prices" come from CCP actions.


I could do that...or I could just note that the inflation in plex prices has vastly outpaced the inflation in ship/mod prices. Which means that vis-a-vis $$$, eve is deflationary. That's what smart people do...they don't get lost in data, they just note the simple and relevant facts.

I don't think you know what inflation means...

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#664 - 2014-09-29 09:56:27 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:

I don't think you know what inflation means...


Not until he comes down, anyway.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#665 - 2014-09-29 10:02:48 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:

bumping freighters is done to gank them, bumping miners is done to start a conversation with them.


I don't know, I've started many a conversation with a miner or hauler after a gank. Loss of your space pixels is a good way to get someones attention.

It's true though, in my experience bumping miners seems to enrage them more and has a higher percentage chance than a gank of yielding the vile bigotry and insults that highsec carebears are known for, or tears claiming that bumping is an exploit. It is nice however to have a clear GM ruling on how bumping is a completely legitimate tactic to point them to.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#666 - 2014-09-29 17:29:31 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
It's true though, in my experience bumping miners seems to enrage them more and has a higher percentage chance than a gank of yielding the vile bigotry and insults that highsec carebears are known for, or tears claiming that bumping is an exploit. It is nice however to have a clear GM ruling on how bumping is a completely legitimate tactic to point them to.

I second that. Bumping produces a lot more tears, rage and opposition than ganking.

Evil RatKid
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#667 - 2014-09-29 17:39:07 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
It's true though, in my experience bumping miners seems to enrage them more and has a higher percentage chance than a gank of yielding the vile bigotry and insults that highsec carebears are known for, or tears claiming that bumping is an exploit. It is nice however to have a clear GM ruling on how bumping is a completely legitimate tactic to point them to.

I second that. Bumping produces a lot more tears, rage and opposition than ganking.

Ideai have a 100mn nano t3 somewhere, i must test this.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#668 - 2014-09-30 01:34:16 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Here Veers, a few terms you need to google up and get numbers for. Rather than using a nebulous "ship prices" and "Plex", try the following.


Mineral Price Index
Primary Producer Price Index
Secondary Producer Price Index
Consumer Price Index.

That's a start, and don't forget to correlate CCP nerfs/buffs in there too, seeing as how we aren't dealing with a purely static system.



If you don't feel like hunting up the numbers, I'll drop you a hint. EVE has been operating under pretty steady inflation over the years (as shown by plex, which is generally untouched by CCP buff/nerf cycles). All those pretty swings you see on "ship prices" come from CCP actions.


I could do that...or I could just note that the inflation in plex prices has vastly outpaced the inflation in ship/mod prices. Which means that vis-a-vis $$$, eve is deflationary. That's what smart people do...they don't get lost in data, they just note the simple and relevant facts.


Actually, smart people don't just dismiss relevant data just because it runs contrary to what they want to believe. Smart people actually don't mind being proven wrong, because smart people seek the truth in all things. If they're wrong about the truth, and can be proven so, they accept it. It isn't very smart at all to just flippantly dismiss data, now without at least examining it first to determine its relevance.

Smart people, Veers, don't go on crusades to prove themselves right. They seek first to prove themselves wrong.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Lady Areola Fappington
#669 - 2014-09-30 05:35:49 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Actually, smart people don't just dismiss relevant data just because it runs contrary to what they want to believe. Smart people actually don't mind being proven wrong, because smart people seek the truth in all things. If they're wrong about the truth, and can be proven so, they accept it. It isn't very smart at all to just flippantly dismiss data, now without at least examining it first to determine its relevance.

Smart people, Veers, don't go on crusades to prove themselves right. They seek first to prove themselves wrong.



I actually like being proven wrong about something in Eve. It generally means I had a bad idea on how something worked. On being proven wrong, I have a better idea.

I mean, it's a video game, who cares.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#670 - 2014-09-30 05:55:20 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Actually, smart people don't just dismiss relevant data just because it runs contrary to what they want to believe. Smart people actually don't mind being proven wrong, because smart people seek the truth in all things. If they're wrong about the truth, and can be proven so, they accept it. It isn't very smart at all to just flippantly dismiss data, now without at least examining it first to determine its relevance.

Smart people, Veers, don't go on crusades to prove themselves right. They seek first to prove themselves wrong.



I actually like being proven wrong about something in Eve. It generally means I had a bad idea on how something worked. On being proven wrong, I have a better idea.

I mean, it's a video game, who cares.


Yawn....the fact that Plex has vastly inflated relative to a representative basket of eve goods, and since plex must be in market equilibrium with both $$$ and Isk, and derived market equilibrium with Eve stuff, shows exactly what is happening. No other data is relevant, hence why It need not be considered.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#671 - 2014-09-30 07:26:02 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Actually, smart people don't just dismiss relevant data just because it runs contrary to what they want to believe. Smart people actually don't mind being proven wrong, because smart people seek the truth in all things. If they're wrong about the truth, and can be proven so, they accept it. It isn't very smart at all to just flippantly dismiss data, now without at least examining it first to determine its relevance.

Smart people, Veers, don't go on crusades to prove themselves right. They seek first to prove themselves wrong.



I actually like being proven wrong about something in Eve. It generally means I had a bad idea on how something worked. On being proven wrong, I have a better idea.

I mean, it's a video game, who cares.


Yawn....the fact that Plex has vastly inflated relative to a representative basket of eve goods, and since plex must be in market equilibrium with both $$$ and Isk, and derived market equilibrium with Eve stuff, shows exactly what is happening. No other data is relevant, hence why It need not be considered.


So adding multiple character training and other things to the list of "things you can use PLEX for" had nothing to do with the rise in demand and, as a result, price?

Veers, the only person you're deluding here is yourself. Nothing you have said wasn't tried back in the day when PLEX was first hitting 300mil. Smart people, of course, would have checked the history of PLEX prices before coming to any final conclusions as well.

And my original point still stands Veers, you can't just dismiss data without examining it. That's just not how smart people do things.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Valkin Mordirc
#672 - 2014-09-30 08:03:48 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


Yawn....the fact that Plex has vastly inflated relative to a representative basket of eve goods, and since plex must be in market equilibrium with both $$$ and Isk, and derived market equilibrium with Eve stuff, shows exactly what is happening. No other data is relevant, hence why It need not be considered.



http://www.eve-tribune.com/2_21/EveTribuneBOB.jpg
#DeleteTheWeak
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#673 - 2014-09-30 08:41:12 UTC
Phrasing!

Is this still a thing?

The Artist Formerly Known As AC. 

The terminal end of the digestive system. 

The Best CSM Candidate
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#674 - 2014-09-30 08:50:30 UTC
CALDARI CITIZEN 14330909 wrote:
Phrasing!

Is this still a thing?

i still say it

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Lady Areola Fappington
#675 - 2014-09-30 12:45:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Remiel Pollard wrote:



So adding multiple character training and other things to the list of "things you can use PLEX for" had nothing to do with the rise in demand and, as a result, price?

Veers, the only person you're deluding here is yourself. Nothing you have said wasn't tried back in the day when PLEX was first hitting 300mil. Smart people, of course, would have checked the history of PLEX prices before coming to any final conclusions as well.

And my original point still stands Veers, you can't just dismiss data without examining it. That's just not how smart people do things.



It's just twisting data to prove a fact, Remmy. It's one of those things neurotypical people like to do.

Then again, it's playing square into certain people's forum gameset. Make a statement, throw out outlandish, incendiary support of statement, get everyone arguing about the support and not the underlying original premise. Then come back to the premise later as if it were fact and fully debated.


So, to address the original statement, no Veers, the ability for a mass of cheap ships to gank a more expensive one is not bad for the EVE economy. In fact, it's actually pretty good for it. Destruction creates demand, which moves ISK, which prevents the whole house of cards from tumbling down. Implementing "ISK tanking" will create "levels" in Eve, and that goes pretty hard against dev ideals there. Eve is a place where, theoretically, a day one newbie can ruin the day of a 10 year vet. That ain't going away.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#676 - 2014-09-30 14:15:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
I do believe its about time for someone to shout 'BINGO' - i really tried to behave so far but its completely getting out of line now :)

Relating completely different models to each other is already a bad start. Knitting PLEX to a pure in-game process is one of those bad ideas.

When you figured out how to reprocess a PLEX into minerals let me know

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#677 - 2014-09-30 14:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
I really don't have time to give basic economics lessons, so for the last time.

Plex is a conduit between $$$ and isk, and therefore between $$$ and ships. If a plex is worth 800 mil and costs $15, and a Mach is worth 800 mil, that means marginal players value a mach at $15. If plex suddenly jumps to 1.6 bil, now a mach is only worth $7.50. People will convert plex to isk and buy machs until prices stabilize with the mach being again worth $15 by rising to 1.6 billion isk.

Arbitrage...market equilibrium......you can't understand the issue without understanding these terms.

what it means -

1 - since plex is rising and stuff isnt, the growth rate of stuff exceeds the growth rate of isk - so the problem isnt isk faucets, missions, or incursions, its too much mining, etc.....

2. that means ganking to stop the isk faucets in highsec is stupid....and shows that its just an excuse to blow things up.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#678 - 2014-09-30 15:36:40 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I really don't have time to give basic economics lessons, so for the last time.

Plex is a conduit between $$$ and isk, and therefore between $$$ and ships. If a plex is worth 800 mil and costs $15, and a Mach is worth 800 mil, that means marginal players value a mach at $15. If plex suddenly jumps to 1.6 bil, now a mach is only worth $7.50. People will convert plex to isk and buy machs until prices stabilize with the mach being again worth $15 by rising to 1.6 billion isk.

Arbitrage...market equilibrium......you can't understand the issue without understanding these terms.

what it means -

1 - since plex is rising and stuff isnt, the growth rate of stuff exceeds the growth rate of isk - so the problem isnt isk faucets, missions, or incursions, its too much mining, etc.....

2. that means ganking to stop the isk faucets in highsec is stupid....and shows that its just an excuse to blow things up.


Plex is also used for multiple character training though, whereby it doesn't get converted into isk at all. And then you're still dismissing the little factoid that plex itself doesn't generate the isk, it's only traded for isk that's already in the game. If there is a problem, it is exactly what you're dismissing, the generation or printing of isk, which includes missions, incursions, mining, ratting, and anything that causes isk to be created out of thin ******* air.

As we've already noted though, you're not interested in listening, you just don't wanna see the nerf hammer taken to the only thing you're interested in doing in the game. On that note, I officially support nerfing incursions, especially high sec incursions, if for no other reason than driving buffoons like you outta the game.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#679 - 2014-09-30 15:40:02 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:


2. that means ganking to stop the isk faucets in highsec is stupid....and shows that its just an excuse to blow things up.


Whats wrong with just wanting to blow things up? The best part about the sandbox is that you set your own goals. "Winning" is a relative term, and not always centric around the idea of accumulation of wealth or assets. Nothing in EvE requires a justification anywhere past the point of "because I felt like it".

You should really hang out with Gevlon Goblin. You would get along famously.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Six Beavers
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#680 - 2014-09-30 16:41:31 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
1 - since plex is rising and stuff isnt, the growth rate of stuff exceeds the growth rate of isk - so the problem isnt isk faucets, missions, or incursions, its too much mining, etc.....

2. that means ganking to stop the isk faucets in highsec is stupid....and shows that its just an excuse to blow things up.


You say the problem is too much mining and etc. By etc. you must mean the freighters hauling the stuff around and those blinged out mission machs.

Ok then the solution is to reduce the growth rate of stuff (mining, haulers, mission runners on route to missions). Ganking an incursion fleet in a site is hard to pull off and i would imagine it's a lot of fun, you call it stupid, but whatever. Still the only way to reduce the stuff is to gank those that have the stuff. Your economic model demands it if we are to get into equilibrium.