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Titan fair to bump or not?

First post First post
Author
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2014-09-22 16:32:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Two things I'd like to points out:

CCP has a policy of NOT commenting or sharing GM communications. There are probably details we are unaware of, and won't become aware of.

If a guy was perma banned for simply bumping a titan ship out of the POS, without forewarning and/or a chance to toe the line of CCP's fairly ambiguous precedent, I'd support getting that permabanned removed. It seems pretty severe. However, I really wonder if there is much more to this story than is being made public!
Kristoffon Ellecon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-09-22 16:52:20 UTC
It is completely ridiculous that a game that serves as a vehicle to form friendships and into which people pour years of their lives may see a player's existance wiped out without warning and at the whim of a person that is unnaccountable and his interpretation of undisclosed rules despite ample previous accepted practice to the contrary.
Whirl
Eve Rejects
Effort.
#23 - 2014-09-22 17:06:25 UTC
A really great article written by Evenews24, which includes detailed information and interviews from both sides of this:

http://evenews24.com/2014/09/21/nulli-titan-reimbursed-soul-taker-pilot-banned/

Even the titan pilot himself thinks the perma ban is ridiculous. Also the 130+ comments from the eve community about this issue is a clear sign that the current "exploit" notification that CCP published is seriously flawed, and far too vague and open to anyones interpretation of what "inside the forcefield means".

The sheer amount of confusion and contradictory knowledge posted by members of the community back this, as well as several recent responses from CCP to different groups/individuals that are completely contradictory to each other, all which can be found reading the article and the comments from capusleers.

The titan was re-inbursed, a pilot acted on a "rule" that is completely open to interpretation, a maneuver that has been done dozens of times before to kill super caps, with no consequence, and then gets a PERMA ban on an account he has invested years of time and money into, because CCP doesn't properly clarify rules, and just swings the ban hammer because thats what they want to do that day.

Nulli got the Titan back, now you are going to completely destroy something an individual has built over many years because of vague rule writing and inconsistent responses to the eve community. Seriously?
Juicescro
International Information Retrieval Guild
Templis Strategic Division
#24 - 2014-09-22 21:05:11 UTC
Yo, CCP, take de dam ban down mon!
Surya Kruul
Corporation 1
#25 - 2014-09-22 22:14:40 UTC
CCP has to revoke the ban or deliver an explanation for this other than 'has not entered force field password'.

To me it looks like in order to bump the titan, entering the force field of the pos was not necessary.
I suspect the log 'clearly' shows the titan inside the force field not considering the whole hitbox.
If thats the case apologies are in order.

Even if the bump happened inside the force field, permaban is still overkill.


PS: i'm not affiliated to any of the partys involved, other than them propably being red to me.
Tirelion
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#26 - 2014-09-22 23:35:48 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Two things I'd like to points out:

CCP has a policy of NOT commenting or sharing GM communications. There are probably details we are unaware of, and won't become aware of.

If a guy was perma banned for simply bumping a titan ship out of the POS, without forewarning and/or a chance to toe the line of CCP's fairly ambiguous precedent, I'd support getting that permabanned removed. It seems pretty severe. However, I really wonder if there is much more to this story than is being made public!

Being personally involved in this (I got the final blow on the Titan) and knowing the involved parties, I can tell you that no, there is nothing relevant that you have not been made aware of. This issue has been completely transparent on the Soul Takers/Shadow Cartel side. The GM who banned Aglon is, to put it bluntly, being lazy (not paying attention) at best, or at worst, incompetent.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2014-09-23 00:03:34 UTC
Tirelion wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Two things I'd like to points out:

CCP has a policy of NOT commenting or sharing GM communications. There are probably details we are unaware of, and won't become aware of.

If a guy was perma banned for simply bumping a titan ship out of the POS, without forewarning and/or a chance to toe the line of CCP's fairly ambiguous precedent, I'd support getting that permabanned removed. It seems pretty severe. However, I really wonder if there is much more to this story than is being made public!

Being personally involved in this (I got the final blow on the Titan) and knowing the involved parties, I can tell you that no, there is nothing relevant that you have not been made aware of. This issue has been completely transparent on the Soul Takers/Shadow Cartel side. The GM who banned Aglon is, to put it bluntly, being lazy (not paying attention) at best, or at worst, incompetent.


I hope he can escalate the situation to a more senior GM, and find a more reasonable resolution then.
Whirl
Eve Rejects
Effort.
#28 - 2014-09-23 05:05:31 UTC
Another article about this on themittani: http://themittani.com/news/pos-cyno-bumping-now-considered-exploit

Quote:
CCP appears to have backpedaled on an initial statement from Senior GM Arcade regarding a POS bumping tactic. At the time, Arcade indicated that the tactic was not considered an exploit, but CCP's attitude seems to have changed since that statement, as evidenced by the apparent reimbursement of the STFU titan lost on September 8 and the recent permaban of a pilot for bumping a Nulli titan.


With some great insight from Innominate:

Quote:
The only good answer here is to state categorically that an unlockable ship is considered inside the POS. This new definition of "part of the ship was out therefore it's fair game" is not supported by any other mechanic and only works as a usable definition with the addition of new functions to support verifying the status of the ships inside the POS.

We have a pile of nullsec pilots, lead by a well known personality who began doing this knowing full well that it was in violation of public statements by CCP about POS bowling. They did so anyways, apparently intending to argue on the technicality of the victim not actually being 100% inside the POS, that unlockable was not actually the definition of "inside the pos". After the kill of Mister Vee's titan, the GMs declared that it was not an exploit.

Assuming this is what the banned pilot did(If the ban is false or for something else, then none of this applies obviously), it was done under the environment of CCP saying it's not an exploit and banning him for it is absurd. It's even worse that he faces a ban for bumping during a period when it was publicly considered "not an exploit", while the people who began this in direct contravention of CCPs public statements.

At this point, the whole thing has been so horribly mishandled by CCP that bans for anyone are only going to make things worse. The whole situation has been so poorly handled all the way up the chain that right now nobody(including CCP) seems to know where this whole thing stands. This is one of those moments where CCP needs to unban and compensate and fix their GM department.


Back and forth, no consistency, its fair game, its an exploit!! and a pilot get perma banned because there is no clear definition, and is screwed in the cross-fire.

Reverse the ban, make a statement, and save yourself from this PR disaster
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#29 - 2014-09-23 09:48:42 UTC  |  Edited by: JIeoH Mocc
Surya Kruul wrote:
CCP has to revoke the ban or deliver an explanation for this other than 'has not entered force field password'.

To me it looks like in order to bump the titan, entering the force field of the pos was not necessary.


The exploit notification doesn't say anything about entering the force field, or anything of that sort.
It says -

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit. "

It's UNCLEAR when exactly is a ship considered within the force-field and when it's considered outside it.
Some think (and thought for years) that once a portion of the ship protrudes from the field - it's fair game to bump it outside.
Heck, i'll bet a toe even CCP thought that for some time, and they policed the game accordingly.
Others think that a ship is outside the field when it's lockable, and while it's not - it's a no no.
That's what CCP seem to think at the moment, and they police the game accordingly.

All this mess could be easily avoided with CLEAR PHRASING OF OFFICIAL STATEMENTS, leaving no room for interpretation. "Unfortunatly" that would also commit CCP to have a clear, consistent outlook on a number of issues, depriving it of tail-wagging space and its usual sporadic behaviour.

Either way, Aglon made a scapegoat is ridiculous, given the fact that Travis Musgrat seemed to walk away from his cyno-bump - it only shows the double standards at work, something that doesn't add to experience of doing business with CCP.

So, to sum it up - CLEAN UP THE OFFICIAL EXPLOIT NOTIFICATIONS and un-ban the guy.
Surya Kruul
Corporation 1
#30 - 2014-09-23 13:30:19 UTC
JIeoH Mocc wrote:

The exploit notification doesn't say anything about entering the force field, or anything of that sort.
It says -

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit. "

Of course you are completely right about that. I was trying to make a point.
I am perfectly aware of the mechanics and also of the notifications. But to any player that isn't , the titan is clearly partially exposed. When you don't need to enter the force field in order to bump, how can this be an exploit?

The problem is not the lack of awareness of exploit notifcations, or incomplete understanding of game mechanics. Its the game client, that shows a ship, thats supposed to be inside the force field to be outside.

How can you ban someone for getting misleading information from the client?

Next they release an exploit notification, saying there is a speed limit on high sec undocks and start banning people not slowing down immediatly. well the client doesn't say anything about it, but there has been a notification somewhere on the website... ?

CCP needs to get this right.
Targanoth
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-09-23 15:08:07 UTC
The sandbox of eve is for players to build, explore and create without limits. From time to time players have been know to find and abuse exploits, This was not one of those times. Aglon was faced with a Titan showing a vulnerability and he had the skills required to capitalize on the situation. No exploits were used to gain entry into a force field. No cyno’s were used to knock the titan out. Please do the correct thing CCP, Unban Aglon. Someone has put years of hard work into the making of that character, Don't wipe it away like it was nothing.

No captain can do very wrong if he places his ship alongside that of an Enemy

Chandaris
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2014-09-23 15:13:05 UTC
Confirming everything Targ said above.

Do the right thing here CCP.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-09-23 17:13:13 UTC
and now a word from the other side of this debate.

*camera pans over to the empty seats across the table as a tumbleweed rolls by*

there you have it folks, not even your own elected representatives have stepped up to say anything about this. Something to remember come election day I am sure, unless there is a scandal involving a rubber duck, a bag of strange white powder and your favorite politician. We now take you live to Jita where another scammer has promised double ISK back.. over to our live commentator.. in JITA!
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-09-23 18:35:50 UTC
Lady Naween wrote:
and now a word from the other side of this debate.

*camera pans over to the empty seats across the table as a tumbleweed rolls by*

there you have it folks, not even your own elected representatives have stepped up to say anything about this. Something to remember come election day I am sure, unless there is a scandal involving a rubber duck, a bag of strange white powder and your favorite politician. We now take you live to Jita where another scammer has promised double ISK back.. over to our live commentator.. in JITA!


trolol. Been about 4 days with no CSM or a CCP response. However I am not surprised from CSM. As a majority of the members just represent null sec. Kinda begs the question, what is the point? From this verdict how it stands now POS titans would not have any risk other than axowing or spies. Suppose it is a good time to resub a spy alt and get a proxy again.
Jazz Caden
Convicts and Savages
#35 - 2014-09-23 20:01:29 UTC
Let's hope CCP do the right thing here. So let's try to get as much support for this thread as possible!

#FreeAlgon
Anabaric
The Grumpy Bastards
#36 - 2014-09-23 20:22:29 UTC
This really needs a response from a GM with a definitive answer to the exploit situation.

Community Manager www.Battleclinic.com @battleclinic Loadouts + Killboards + Forums Twitter @anabaric_eve www.the-bastards.net Recruitment: OPEN

Kazruw Drol
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#37 - 2014-09-23 20:36:48 UTC
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Surya Kruul wrote:
CCP has to revoke the ban or deliver an explanation for this other than 'has not entered force field password'.

To me it looks like in order to bump the titan, entering the force field of the pos was not necessary.


The exploit notification doesn't say anything about entering the force field, or anything of that sort.
It says -

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit. "

It's UNCLEAR when exactly is a ship considered within the force-field and when it's considered outside it.
Some think (and thought for years) that once a portion of the ship protrudes from the field - it's fair game to bump it outside.

The exploit notification was clarified:
"It is considered an exploit to bump ships that are located within starbase force-fields by any means that bypasses the requirement for a correct password or access permissions, as configured in the starbase tower settings, to achieve the bump. If a password or access permission would not normally be required to achieve the bump, the action is not covered by this notification."

The clarification doesn't leave much room for interpretation: if you bump a part that's sticking out of the force field, you obviously won't need any kind of access permission etc. to achieve the bump and your actions are not covered by the exploit notification. The GMs can still of course ban you for it, because the game is a sandbox - their sandbox. ;)

I may or may not be impersonating one of my alts or vice versa.

Jazz Caden
Convicts and Savages
#38 - 2014-09-23 20:53:53 UTC
Well said Kaz. While we may all be at the mercy of what mood CCP are in on any given day we do have a valid point here. The rules aren't clear AND players like Algon should not be made to take pictures and fraps of their actions preemptively to defend themselves from possible bans.
CCP PR department- pay attention to this post and respond. It looks and feels very much like you are trying to sweep this under the rug. Unless you plan to ban entire alliances you should realize by now we are not going to leave this subject alone until we receive a logical response.
Respectfully,
Jazz.
Tirelion
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#39 - 2014-09-23 20:59:09 UTC
I would just like to point out that it is literally disgusting that this has gone on this long with no official GM/Dev/CSM response to this thread. Certainly none of our current CSM will be getting my vote at this point.
Saltire
Empire Assault Corp
Dead Terrorists
#40 - 2014-09-23 21:35:06 UTC
This has not been handled correctly at all, that rug at your HQ must be getting real bumpy.

This needs a clear CCP response, not the usual under the counter backdoor "kept quiet for security reasons" excuses.

I don't envy the CCP reps at Vegas when Aglon gets there.

Salt