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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

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Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#321 - 2014-08-27 04:17:29 UTC
Admiral Synergy wrote:
Repost from the other thread.

This is insane.

.....

Cheers CCP


What he said! I love the new frigate wormholes but this spawn rate is just broken... I'm guessing it wasnt intended??

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Winthorp
#322 - 2014-08-27 04:25:42 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
Admiral Synergy wrote:
Repost from the other thread.

This is insane.

.....

Cheers CCP


What he said! I love the new frigate wormholes but this spawn rate is just broken... I'm guessing it wasnt intended??


Well considering they all got spawned at exactly the same time and all of the frigate Wh's are time based then maybe not, unless CCP tells us how many there is of them we will have to wait a few days until the timers spread out from timed death of Wh's and someone rescanning them thus activating new timers that will spread this out.
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#323 - 2014-08-27 05:05:43 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Andiedeath wrote:
Admiral Synergy wrote:
Repost from the other thread.

This is insane.

.....

Cheers CCP


What he said! I love the new frigate wormholes but this spawn rate is just broken... I'm guessing it wasnt intended??


Well considering they all got spawned at exactly the same time and all of the frigate Wh's are time based then maybe not, unless CCP tells us how many there is of them we will have to wait a few days until the timers spread out from timed death of Wh's and someone rescanning them thus activating new timers that will spread this out.


Here's hoping. ;)

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#324 - 2014-08-27 05:30:37 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
I am hearing reports of WH's flooded with these frig WH's but people probably need to calm down a little and remember this, these are time based Wh's and they all got spawned at the exact same time after DT so i don't think we can have a clear picture of if there is too many untill they start respawning and rescanned and timers start to spread out.

What could help is if CCP could give US some feedback on the amount of frig WH's there is in the pool and if there is too many that have been spawned in one region over another region?


This is a stupid theory.

Point, the first. If this was the case, when Apocrpyha first came out we would have had 4 of any of Z971 / R943 / X702 per system in K-space because "all the wormholes spawned at the same time". In case you weren't even subbed back then or didn't know how to probe, old-school style, this was not the case.

Point, the second. OK, if you accept that there's a finite number of wormholes, and the problem is that they all got spawned at the same time...actually, that's dumb, so forget that. Which means it doesn't really matter if they got spawned at the same time.

CCP won't say, but Greyscale's last comments on the matter suggest that there's a chance table mechanism which determines a) a system is due a signature and if it gets spawned b) what type of signature it is

This mechanism would scuttle your logic (which already fails, see above) because, to whit,
a) why did all the frig holes spawn at the same time after downtime if their chance of spawning should ideally have been flat ver a 23.75 hour period starting from the launch of Gheyperion on the 26th?
b) why would they all be in the same region of j-space?
c) like, seriously, they aren't even in the same region of j-space
d) Given no one's going to ever close thesehorrible monstrosities using a ship they will all respawn at the same time
e) their respawn, being more or less simultaneous, brings us back to point a), above, and still hasn't answered it except that now there might be +/- 30 mins spread
f) why should a +/- 30 minute spread in timers reduce the number of frigate wormholes or the number of transient wormholes, aka the probability density of wormholes of any kind in j-space won't change from a lack of synchronicity in their spawning, the reasons for which there's clearly no explicable mechanism

Logic thus dictates that CCP Fozzie got hold of the pooch and did illegal things to it. Plox fix ASAP so I can bother with j-space again.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#325 - 2014-08-27 05:38:57 UTC
Oh, oh! More feedback.

Dear CCP,

Thankyou for adding a second static to C4 wormholes. It is so much useful, very wow. However, given there are 2 frigate sized wormholes per wormhole everywhere that Winthorp is not, why do I need statics in my wormhole now at all? Given i am drowning in transient wormholes, every system in j-space now has at least 3 to 7 connections.

This is SUPER AWESOME, because even in k-space you don't have so many connections to camp, on average! I mean, it would be ULTRA SUPER AWESOME if every system in k-space had SEVEN star gates, but some of them were super secret special stargates only frigates could jump through, but you could never tell which ones.

Then, it would be even more MEGA ULTRA SUPER AWESOME if you couldn't tell which star gates were frigate sized until you try to jump through them. That would be great. please change it.

Even better and AMAZEBALLS MEGA ULTRA SUPER AWESOME would be to have stargates disappear at random, and you had to probe them down, and they went to random systems.

But most of all, the cherry on top of the COOL AMAZEBALLS MEGA ULTRA SUPER AWESOME ideas would be to make everything randomly spawn a random distance off a random mystery stargate if it actually can jump through, but also remove local, and stations, and stop people bringing capitals in anywhere. But make sure Goons owns the space.

Then you'll totally have fixed wormholes. 1000 percent.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#326 - 2014-08-27 05:51:59 UTC
I love having more connectivity but this implementation seems a bit excessive.
Lodestone Toyee
Inevitable Outcome
E.C.H.O
#327 - 2014-08-27 05:58:55 UTC
These frigate only wormhole seem like a serious nerf to small wormhole corps especially.

Assume one of these wormholes opens up in your home system and a big corp with 50+ active members decides to roll a massive AF gang into you. Since you are heavily outnumbered, you are forced to use bigger ships (T3s, logi, cruiser hulls, and up) to defend your wormhole. You may be able to kill one or two frigates, but the rest of the gang can just sit on the frig-only hole and jump back through at the first sign of danger. Since you have fewer members, you CANNOT follow in your bigger ships.

Its like fighting people on a highsec hole. There is no way to win, and you cannot roll the hole to cause the fight to end.

The end result of this is that a corp with more members than you will force all your corp to stay POSed up until the hole closes on its own.

Now, to add insult to injury, It turns out that with the current spawn rate of frig-only holes, you will have one of these un-closable holes at almost every point in the day, and often will have more than one at the same time connected to your home system. This means that the above situation will likely happen several times a week.

Combine this with the aforementioned affects on solo hunters, and you will be forced to find a big wormhole corp to have fun, let alone make isk, in wormholes.
Winthorp
#328 - 2014-08-27 06:10:27 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:


Point, the second. OK, if you accept that there's a finite number of wormholes, and the problem is that they all got spawned at the same time...actually, that's dumb, so forget that. Which means it doesn't really matter if they got spawned at the same time.

CCP won't say, but Greyscale's last comments on the matter suggest that there's a chance table mechanism which determines a) a system is due a signature and if it gets spawned b) what type of signature it is



Assuming that Greyscale did say that and it is correct it still doesn't remove the remove the point about the pool of Wh's that can be in existence and that is you assuming now.

I was not around when the first WH's were born so will take your word on that.

I am still not convinced that the frig WH's didn't just get auto spawned after patch, and until CCP comes out with anything but i guess i will still have to think the same way. You also have to remember that those at CCP around working on code when they first released WH's are not still there.

You make a lot of points but you ignore the fact that when these frig WH's expire due to time they WILL respawn ready to be scanned down, they will not be all scanned at the same time and thus they will all have timers that will activate at much more diverse timers/times.
Nancy Wayke
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#329 - 2014-08-27 07:02:55 UTC
I don't think we've seen a wormhole with system with fewer than 3 links yet, with the majority 4+

The frigate wormholes are T3 deathtraps - we'll have to do all scouting in covert ops frogs if this persists, and the number of fights is likely to go down as a result
dirtydebbs
the wreking crew
#330 - 2014-08-27 07:13:00 UTC
Not sure how the spawn rate was set but either as it's patch day and itl settle the spawn rate on there seems way to high out of 16 wh in out chain last night over half of them had these whs,

Also could you change the graphics or as a hint in the description what they are to stop confusion
It is funny watching people coming up the chain and then getting confused as to why there badger can't jump mind :)
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#331 - 2014-08-27 08:06:02 UTC
I assume the large number of these holes is intended to kill the old way of thinking in w-space, where you almost always knew exactly where the intruder came from if you spotted a ship on d-scan. Now you may wonder if that cov ops came through the frig hole and is most likely just a minor threat, or if he came from one of your other four holes and is possibly the tackler for a strong fleet.

Also, with so many holes, the old habit of just not doing anything whenever you have an open hole in your system that you cannot close, must end; either you move out or you do stuff with holes open.

I like these changes although it will not be easy to adapt.

One exception though: That the frig-sized holes are indistinguishable from other holes on the k162 side until you try to jump through them really sucks. I hope it is an oversight and not Fozzie's way to get rid of the T3s he hates so much ;)

.
japanese mafia
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2014-08-27 08:16:23 UTC
Loris Fritz wrote:
This is a great new content generator for wspace. A wh you cannot close that lets pesky little frigs to catch your haulers and the like.... A possible wh that has ever present danger sounds like a lot of fun... Especially if you are the one hunting .


High-class and larger W-Space organizations don't fly random unscouted haulers around (much). They have transports ships and active corps that laugh at your frigates.

Low-class and smaller W-Space residents will not make as much money and many will leave W-Space. Sadface.

I'm not opposed to this idea entirely, but I don't think it will be healthy for the economics of W-Space, and will discourage smaller groups.

We all see how well discouraging smaller groups has worked out for sov null.

Sigh...
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#333 - 2014-08-27 08:44:41 UTC
I did raise this issue at the Town Hall - re Frigate size wormholes being a fairly big problem for smallish C3 and under corps, but no one else agreed at the time.

Everyone needs to farm from time to time, and if the risk/reward ratio gets so skewed why would you even move to a low end wormhole to start with ? Unless you have alts outside making isk and just use the WH for pvp alone - but that's less activity in w-space and less fights generally.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#334 - 2014-08-27 08:50:11 UTC
Everyone seems to forget that frigates are easy and quick to kill. Especially the cloaky ones that are most likely to come first through this kind of wormhole.

And it's also easy to bubble the hole which gives you some more time to kill the lone cloaky tackler frig while the big bad AF gang is still burning out of the bubble.

May not always work, but should give bears a fair chance to add a couple of frig kills to their KB before they die :)

.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2014-08-27 08:51:53 UTC
No really this is just as dumb for hunters as it is for preys, and i fail to understand the rationale behind restricting ship type in an environment that has fostered emergent game play.

but here are some ideas that may help mitigate the issues:

If wh is between j-space systems then make it a normal wh with no restrictions, although with the increase in connections i'm not sure we really need more...

add a description that reflects its mass limited
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#336 - 2014-08-27 11:58:36 UTC
waiting for people to realize you can fly a cheap ass frig and pew pew...and i'll fly a cheap frig fleet and gank you while you run a sleeper site. muhahahahaha
Naglerr
235MeV
#337 - 2014-08-27 12:02:41 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
What could help is if CCP could give US some feedback on the amount of frig WH's there is in the pool and if there is too many that have been spawned in one region over another region?


^This. An official response from CCP on this would be fantastic.
Steven Hackett
Overload This
#338 - 2014-08-27 14:05:23 UTC
I see the new frigholes as the AFK cloaker of W-space..

They aren't usefull for anything but griefing the people next door, you know its there but can't do anything about it and you never know when an active stealthbomber will decloak and blow up your wrecks..

I thought CCP was unhappy with that kind of gamedesign, but hey..
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#339 - 2014-08-27 14:23:19 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Everyone seems to forget that frigates are easy and quick to kill. Especially the cloaky ones that are most likely to come first through this kind of wormhole.

And it's also easy to bubble the hole which gives you some more time to kill the lone cloaky tackler frig while the big bad AF gang is still burning out of the bubble.

May not always work, but should give bears a fair chance to add a couple of frig kills to their KB before they die :)


Wait for 12 weeks until Fozzie drops frigate MJDs. Then you'll see about bubbling these things. You'll see.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Malaphocent Malukker
Capsuleers Who Say Ni
#340 - 2014-08-27 15:22:09 UTC
The C2 I occupy only had the two statics and zero transient or frig-holes.
Sounds like this is not the norm though.
It may just be a distribution problem that should get fixed naturally over time.

As part of small corp I am very concerned that the WH will be "open" far too often than "closed".
If it becomes nigh on impossible to run anoms then will probably relocate to rent-null.

This may be the end of the small corp WH dwellers.