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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Random WHs and the New Small Ship WHs

First post
Author
Endo Riftbreaker
Holey Roamin' Empire
TURBOFEED OR GLORY
#341 - 2014-08-27 15:34:24 UTC
I'd like to echo the comments made by others about the negative impact to small/solo corps. The addition of so many new holes has made scanning and op sec a basic non-starter for any small group. I logged in yesterday, took one look at the 6 holes connecting to my system, the 5 holes connected to my static, and logged off.

The holes now are like swiss cheese, with each one having 5+ connections and 5 more connections in the hole you jump into. It feels like null-sec with a system that has 6 gates and no local! There's not a chance anyone in their right mind would take the risk to run some sites in this environment.

The feeling/lore of being lost/isoluated in W space is complete gone, it's just one giant interconnected parking lot now, with no one running anything and everyone POS'd up because you can't roll even 1 of the 6 connections you have.

For me, I'm a solo corp, I'll be running down my fuel reserves and then moving out of J space, and possibly leaving the game. WH's were the last place a solo operator could "claim" and defend/homestead a system, enjoy some PvP hunting/being hunted and make decent income. But I'm not here to be cannon fodder to the 150 people my home system is connected to on any given day, and I doubt many other low class WH inhabitants are either.
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#342 - 2014-08-27 16:05:59 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:

And it's also easy to bubble the hole which gives you some more time to kill the lone cloaky tackler frig while the big bad AF gang is still burning out of the bubble.


In which case you need an alt on every bubble to listen to activations
  • - the cloaky isn't a tackler - he just gets a warp in for the inty that is.

  • [*] If you assume a 30 toon corp is actually just 10 people, all of whom dont' log in at once, then a whole lot of w-space is going to be empty fairly soon apart from PI farming.
    Alexander Eisenhower
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #343 - 2014-08-27 16:23:31 UTC
    Styphon the Black wrote:
    It's the point of moving out into wormhole space for most players and player corps and attempt to "get away" from the rest of the world and isolate? I go into wormhole space all the time and I like not having anyone around.



    Exactly!
    Tryliu
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #344 - 2014-08-27 17:13:30 UTC
    I live in a C2 with a small Corporation.

    I must say that the changes to WH's hurt our "game" drastically. Actually we are unable to run sites with so many incoming whormholes, we are unable to care about all of them. At the current status the risk <-> reward isn't something worth to talk about.

    Same with our static C3. In addition to those nasty new whormholes our ability to roll our static is dramatically reduced. Its just a pain to try roll a wh with so many incoming wh's on both sides. The risk is to high the reward is to low.

    Before Hyperion i thought moving into a wh is one and only chance for us to do something "meaningfull" (atleast for us). Joining one the big 0-Blobbers to just be a "number" is just nothing i want to talk about now. Yeah, but with the current wh-mechanics small corps like us wont have a good time in whormholes.

    I hope atleast those incoming holes arent there most of the time ..... otherwise it would mean that we are forced out of the hole and what should we do than? Yeah.... not much.

    I am pretty upset right now.... not a good patch for me.... ruined my day.
    Bramson
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #345 - 2014-08-27 17:15:54 UTC
    already talks of adding additional frigate wormholes from nullses->W-space and Hsec->W-space.

    W-space the new super highway.

    Going to be used more than a loose prostitute. Pirate
    SyntaxPD
    PowerDucks
    PowerDucks Alliance
    #346 - 2014-08-27 17:19:05 UTC
    this is what nearly all c3s look like since update:
    http://s17.postimg.org/u94fuhrsf/2014_08_27_16_30_27.png
    Naglerr
    235MeV
    Waterboard Comedy Tour
    #347 - 2014-08-27 17:32:56 UTC
    SyntaxPD wrote:
    this is what nearly all c3s look like since update:
    http://s17.postimg.org/u94fuhrsf/2014_08_27_16_30_27.png


    Holy crap. And to think I was upset because the C2 I was in had 5 connections. Absolutely unreal.
    Rroff
    Antagonistic Tendencies
    #348 - 2014-08-27 17:43:06 UTC
    lol I didn't think these were too bad, but the experiences of today and seeing other people's experiences has changed my mind... withholding judgement til I've had more time to see how it works out but given the events of today I'm very less than positive.
    Kynric
    Sky Fighters
    Rote Kapelle
    #349 - 2014-08-27 17:50:33 UTC
    SyntaxPD wrote:
    this is what nearly all c3s look like since update:
    http://s17.postimg.org/u94fuhrsf/2014_08_27_16_30_27.png


    Even if you put a scout on each I can't imagine being able to keep track of all of the coming and going.
    Argyle Wynter
    Rura-Penthe
    #350 - 2014-08-27 18:01:22 UTC
    Not sure how comparable they are to the statistics of other groups.
    We live in a C2.
    For those that are interested, here are our WH statistics:

    Besides our two statics, we have had an additional 16 in holes in the last 24 hours

    Two frigate holes, 6 High Sec holes, the rest were J-space to J-space.

    For several hours last night we were getting a new “in” hole every 40-60 min.

    In the last 24 hours, we estimate that we had a 4+ hour window were there was no frigate hole (none of our folks were on during that time frame though). The rest of the time there has been a frigate hole.

    We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole Shocked– so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.
    SyntaxPD
    PowerDucks
    PowerDucks Alliance
    #351 - 2014-08-27 18:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: SyntaxPD
    Cant call it good or bad yet. It's high attention to w-space due to update.
    As a wh-players, we'll adopt to theese changes once post-update interest calms down a bit.

    There's an obvious thing: W-space is now officially more connected than k-space, you cant have 9 gates in k-space system.
    Pathas
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #352 - 2014-08-27 18:26:40 UTC
    It's fairly easy to tell if this was a good or bad move - just look at WH prices.
    SyntaxPD
    PowerDucks
    PowerDucks Alliance
    #353 - 2014-08-27 18:34:58 UTC  |  Edited by: SyntaxPD
    Pathas wrote:
    It's fairly easy to tell if this was a good or bad move - just look at WH prices.

    i'll look at nanoribbons prices after a while Blink

    Actualy, i dont like how the changes turned out, we often enjoyed hunting-style pvp in w-space, it's when you carefully chase your target, you care about not giving your target feel of someone's presence in the system e.t.c. You work hard to have more intel, than your victim. Now this aint gonna work.
    Necharo Rackham
    The Red Circle Inc.
    Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
    #354 - 2014-08-27 18:43:29 UTC
    Pathas wrote:
    It's fairly easy to tell if this was a good or bad move - just look at WH prices.


    That's not necessarily the case, there is both supply and demand. Less people generally in W-space will also lead to lower demand.
    Moloney
    The Bilderberg Group
    #355 - 2014-08-27 18:50:24 UTC
    Since you deleted the ISD "Real Feedback thread" may I state again:

    We didn't want it.

    We still don't want it.

    And now you are just insulting us!

    What is the purpose of these threads if you don't LISTEN!!!
    Valenthe de Celine
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #356 - 2014-08-27 18:58:09 UTC
    Argyle Wynter wrote:
    We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole Shocked– so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.

    That is a very interesting dynamic. I hadn't expected it, but perhaps cloaked ships camping them is a way to turn these troll holes to our advantage?
    Rroff
    Antagonistic Tendencies
    #357 - 2014-08-27 19:00:33 UTC
    Argyle Wynter wrote:

    We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole Shocked– so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.


    We had a hilarious but also sad situation earlier which I was alluding to above - someone scouted a battleship fleet backed up with a carrier down the chain so we mobilised a fleet only to work out that any route of getting to them meant trying to get through a frigate only hole at some point :( we had a good laugh but it was also a pretty **** situation.
    Experiment 32423
    Doomheim
    #358 - 2014-08-27 19:22:13 UTC
    Endo Riftbreaker wrote:
    I'd like to echo the comments made by others about the negative impact to small/solo corps. The addition of so many new holes has made scanning and op sec a basic non-starter for any small group. I logged in yesterday, took one look at the 6 holes connecting to my system, the 5 holes connected to my static, and logged off.

    The holes now are like swiss cheese, with each one having 5+ connections and 5 more connections in the hole you jump into. It feels like null-sec with a system that has 6 gates and no local! There's not a chance anyone in their right mind would take the risk to run some sites in this environment.

    The feeling/lore of being lost/isoluated in W space is complete gone, it's just one giant interconnected parking lot now, with no one running anything and everyone POS'd up because you can't roll even 1 of the 6 connections you have.

    For me, I'm a solo corp, I'll be running down my fuel reserves and then moving out of J space, and possibly leaving the game. WH's were the last place a solo operator could "claim" and defend/homestead a system, enjoy some PvP hunting/being hunted and make decent income. But I'm not here to be cannon fodder to the 150 people my home system is connected to on any given day, and I doubt many other low class WH inhabitants are either.


    I agree with this.

    All in all, I'm in favour of increasing risk and destroying the old C4 risk-free farming environment. That being said, a large part of the wormhole population consists of small corporations who simply do not have the resources to deal with 5-6 connections at a time, especially considering that these groups have a considerably harder time collapsing holes than the larger corporations.

    The main problem with this change is, that control is being replaced with randomness. It does not create compelling game-play and it certainly isn't rewarding. I would have much rather seen changes that bring more players into wormholes to fill all the empty space and increase the chances of random connections connecting active holes. Smaller groups would be able to control 1-3 active holes while keeping the risk-factor in its place, but manageable.

    As an example, how do you think corporation A with 20 members, out of which maybe 10 are online, will react when they see 5-6 connections? That's right, they'll log off or POS spin - and you can't even blame them.

    In conclusion, we don't need more random holes, we need changes that bring people into wormholes, such as C1/C2 income being completely out of balance when compared to risk-free activities in certain other parts of space. Pushing small corps out of wormholes will only drastically lower the population even further, and that is the last thing we need. I mean, has it ever occurred to anybody that running a C2 site is about as profitable as a L4 mission, in what is probably the highest-risk class? No number of random connections will increase PvP when every lower-class wormhole is empty.
    Amak Boma
    Dragon Factory
    #359 - 2014-08-27 19:24:17 UTC
    Rroff wrote:
    Argyle Wynter wrote:

    We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole Shocked– so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.


    We had a hilarious but also sad situation earlier which I was alluding to above - someone scouted a battleship fleet backed up with a carrier down the chain so we mobilised a fleet only to work out that any route of getting to them meant trying to get through a frigate only hole at some point :( we had a good laugh but it was also a pretty **** situation.



    you should leave inside scan alt and later pop that loot piniata







    btw found c1 hs static had 13 frig holes 5 wandering to other holes 1 connection to low the hs static and three to nullsec
    quite damn way too much connections and wormholes are more null way now
    Jez Amatin
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #360 - 2014-08-27 20:14:46 UTC
    Rroff wrote:
    Argyle Wynter wrote:

    We did get a kill on a cruiser trying to go out a frigate hole Shocked– so the jumpable mass limitations on them does add an interesting new dynamic.


    We had a hilarious but also sad situation earlier which I was alluding to above - someone scouted a battleship fleet backed up with a carrier down the chain so we mobilised a fleet only to work out that any route of getting to them meant trying to get through a frigate only hole at some point :( we had a good laugh but it was also a pretty **** situation.


    That is also the scenario i was getting at. In w-space, it helps neither hunter nor hunted. It is just a novelty which has no tangible connection with wormhole pvp meta. granted u can scan a route once u get a scout in, but the odds of you getting it are incredibly slim. especially when u factor in changes to rolling and mass-based wh spawning.

    Make these k-space only and they might be at the very least mildly entertaining. Although i'm still not convinced they're anything but a futile change with no real insight into how these wh might influence both environments (as in both k & w space).