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Time to do something about locust swarms?
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Faeana
iD00M
#41 - 2014-08-16 12:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeana
Martin Corwin wrote:
Easy solution: ban multiboxing. It's pay-to-win imo, anyways. Banning multiboxing will solve other problems, too. Like, one player gatecamps, gold armor/gold ammo T3 link alt in system for "solo" pvpers and safe travel with scout alts. EvE is a massively multiplayer game, not a massively multitoon game.

Rebalancing ships or game mechanics just because of these pay-to-win types is stupid.


I assure you, these guys do not pay to win. They earn enough isk to pay for all of their accounts with plex bought from the market. No money from their pockets will come to EVE. They really are just locusts, not just in the ice fields, but the game in general.

They are taking advantage of the fact that they can earn large amounts of isk in complete safety. If determined players could gank these types, this behaviour would soon diminish. Although I am sure a few really determined ones will get even more accounts, combat ships, to help defend their miners. But that's the way it should be.

It's crazy when you think about it, that a large group of pure industrial ships can make so much isk risk free, they don't even need defensive ships to help guard them, they don't need intel channels, they never had to fight for anything.
Dave Stark
#42 - 2014-08-16 12:02:52 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, I have another suggestion for you.

If they are actually orbiting the Orca, then he is doing it to reduce the amount of commands he has to give. Use a Machariel or something to bump it away from the belt.

When the Freighter arrives, bump it too. Neither of those ships can do jack all against a dedicated bumper without backup, so they won't be going anywhere.

It will **** him off pretty quickly.


just gank the orca, it has the same affect on his isk/hour as ganking 1/3 of his entire fleet.
Dave Stark
#43 - 2014-08-16 12:03:45 UTC
Faeana wrote:
they don't even need defensive ships to help guard them.

yes they do; except in high sec the npcs provide those ships.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#44 - 2014-08-16 12:05:20 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, I have another suggestion for you.

If they are actually orbiting the Orca, then he is doing it to reduce the amount of commands he has to give. Use a Machariel or something to bump it away from the belt.

When the Freighter arrives, bump it too. Neither of those ships can do jack all against a dedicated bumper without backup, so they won't be going anywhere.

It will **** him off pretty quickly.


just gank the orca, it has the same affect on his isk/hour as ganking 1/3 of his entire fleet.


While true, I imagine the OP is asking this precisely because he does not have the means to accomplish this.

But everyone can bump, even if not everyone can fly a Machariel.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
#45 - 2014-08-16 12:06:11 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Barzai Mekhar wrote:
Faeana wrote:


As it is, there is far too many Procurers and Skiffs being used in hi-sec anomalies, most players are using them, this shows that there is a balance issue. So the obvious thing to do is, is solve the balance issue by adjusting the Skiff and Procurer so people will actually start to gank them occasionally and the issue will sort itself out. Two birds killed with one stone.


Nerf ganking in cheap ships =>
Mining in anything other than a pro/skiff is no longer stupid (that is, if you're in a system that requires you to use them..) =>
Lazy people use retrievers, greedy people use covetors, people that need to tank BS rats in nullsec use procurers, balance achieved!

See, it works both ways.


The majority of people in hi-sec use Procurers. No balance here.


The point -> .
You missed it.

People use the most gank-proof ship because the current trend in "player created content" (aka being an ******* for **** n giggles) makes any other option stupid. Instead of making sure that every ship can be ganked, making sure that none can be ganked would solve the imbalance as well, so just arguing "change because imbalance" isn't working.
Dave Stark
#46 - 2014-08-16 12:08:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, I have another suggestion for you.

If they are actually orbiting the Orca, then he is doing it to reduce the amount of commands he has to give. Use a Machariel or something to bump it away from the belt.

When the Freighter arrives, bump it too. Neither of those ships can do jack all against a dedicated bumper without backup, so they won't be going anywhere.

It will **** him off pretty quickly.


just gank the orca, it has the same affect on his isk/hour as ganking 1/3 of his entire fleet.


While true, I imagine the OP is asking this precisely because he does not have the means to accomplish this.

But everyone can bump, even if not everyone can fly a Machariel.


I'm sure if he gives some enterprising pilots a few catalysts they'll be more than happy to do it for him.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#47 - 2014-08-16 12:10:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

I'm sure if he gives some enterprising pilots a few catalysts they'll be more than happy to do it for him.


Oh yes, hence that my first suggestion was to donate to the New Order. But if he has someone specific in mind then it really depends on the situation.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Prince Kobol
#48 - 2014-08-16 12:19:50 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
If you don't like it then do something about it.


I am, but my options are limited. that's why I posted this thread. Give players the tools to police this kind of behaviour. With Procurers so cheap to buy, with the tank of a battleship, ganking them just isn't going to happen enough to have any impact. They need to be toned down a bit. They are clearly too powerful as the anomalies are filled with Procurers and Skiffs.



Here is an idea.. work with other players, I know its out there isn't it...
Faeana
iD00M
#49 - 2014-08-16 12:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeana
Prince Kobol wrote:
Faeana wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
If you don't like it then do something about it.


I am, but my options are limited. that's why I posted this thread. Give players the tools to police this kind of behaviour. With Procurers so cheap to buy, with the tank of a battleship, ganking them just isn't going to happen enough to have any impact. They need to be toned down a bit. They are clearly too powerful as the anomalies are filled with Procurers and Skiffs.



Here is an idea.. work with other players, I know its out there isn't it...





What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, a properly tanked skiff will take 20 T2 catalysts to kill in 0.7 and may even survive.
Dave Stark
#50 - 2014-08-16 12:27:33 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Faeana wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
If you don't like it then do something about it.


I am, but my options are limited. that's why I posted this thread. Give players the tools to police this kind of behaviour. With Procurers so cheap to buy, with the tank of a battleship, ganking them just isn't going to happen enough to have any impact. They need to be toned down a bit. They are clearly too powerful as the anomalies are filled with Procurers and Skiffs.



Here is an idea.. work with other players, I know its out there isn't it...





What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, even more if it's 0.7. Reduce it to 5 catalysts.


do you actually have a point, or are you just whining that other people have more accounts than you and you find this somehow unfair even though you're also allowed to open an extra 20 accounts also?
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#51 - 2014-08-16 12:34:18 UTC
Faeana wrote:
What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, even more if it's 0.7. Reduce it to 5 catalysts.


Dude, F U your skiff nerfing ideas.
Somebody had to pay for all those accounts at beginning even if now he just PLEX them all from his massive ice crunching op.
You wanna ice belt to yourself? There's always one in Aeschee, go for it.

Invalid signature format
Faeana
iD00M
#52 - 2014-08-16 12:42:16 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Faeana wrote:
What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, even more if it's 0.7. Reduce it to 5 catalysts.


Dude, F U your skiff nerfing ideas.
Somebody had to pay for all those accounts at beginning even if now he just PLEX them all from his massive ice crunching op.
You wanna ice belt to yourself? There's always one in Aeschee, go for it.


Many defensive hi-sec ice mining isboxers in this thread.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#53 - 2014-08-16 12:50:20 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Faeana wrote:
What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, even more if it's 0.7. Reduce it to 5 catalysts.


Dude, F U your skiff nerfing ideas.
Somebody had to pay for all those accounts at beginning even if now he just PLEX them all from his massive ice crunching op.
You wanna ice belt to yourself? There's always one in Aeschee, go for it.


Many defensive hi-sec ice mining isboxers in this thread.
Skiffs and Procurers don't need to be nerfed, your ability to post does though.

As suggested previously, if you don't like it, do something about it, their Orca or Freighter exploding will put quite the dent in their operations profit margin.

You're also neglecting to mention the obvious, the person ISBoxing 20 accounts maybe well be raking in billions, but it's spread across all of those accounts.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Faeana
iD00M
#54 - 2014-08-16 12:54:28 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Faeana wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Faeana wrote:
What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, even more if it's 0.7. Reduce it to 5 catalysts.


Dude, F U your skiff nerfing ideas.
Somebody had to pay for all those accounts at beginning even if now he just PLEX them all from his massive ice crunching op.
You wanna ice belt to yourself? There's always one in Aeschee, go for it.


Many defensive hi-sec ice mining isboxers in this thread.
Skiffs and Procurers don't need to be nerfed, your ability to post does though.

As suggested previously, if you don't like it, do something about it, their Orca or Freighter exploding will put quite the dent in their operations profit margin.

You're also neglecting to mention the obvious, the person ISBoxing 20 accounts maybe well be raking in billions, but it's spread across all of those accounts.



Do you think the isboxer cares about blinging out all 20 accounts? No, he only has to earn enough isk for the plex on each account, that could take a week at the very most. The other 3 weeks of a month he is earning tens of billions to do whatever he wants with.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#55 - 2014-08-16 13:05:32 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Faeana wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Faeana wrote:
What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him? It currently takes about 10-12 T2 catalysts to take out one skiff, even more if it's 0.7. Reduce it to 5 catalysts.


Dude, F U your skiff nerfing ideas.
Somebody had to pay for all those accounts at beginning even if now he just PLEX them all from his massive ice crunching op.
You wanna ice belt to yourself? There's always one in Aeschee, go for it.


Many defensive hi-sec ice mining isboxers in this thread.
Skiffs and Procurers don't need to be nerfed, your ability to post does though.

As suggested previously, if you don't like it, do something about it, their Orca or Freighter exploding will put quite the dent in their operations profit margin.

You're also neglecting to mention the obvious, the person ISBoxing 20 accounts maybe well be raking in billions, but it's spread across all of those accounts.



Do you think the isboxer cares about blinging out all 20 accounts? No, he only has to earn enough isk for the plex on each account, that could take a week at the very most. The other 3 weeks of a month he is earning tens of billions to do whatever he wants with.
And......

He has no friends to mine with, so what?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Tam Arai
Mi Pen Rai
#56 - 2014-08-16 13:05:45 UTC
kill the orca and freighter

dont need to shoot the miners to disturb him
Faeana
iD00M
#57 - 2014-08-16 13:05:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Faeana
http://i.imgur.com/ZllEC2e.jpg

That screenshot shows the situation in most hi-sec ice fields. 21 Skiffs, 5 Procurers, 2 Retrievers, 3 Covetors. I am actually surprised there is any Covetor at all, there is usually none. So assuming there is none as usual, you have

21 skiffs
5 procurers

vs

2 retrievers

Similar situation across every ice field. Not balanced.
Space Therapist
Better Days Ahead
#58 - 2014-08-16 13:09:13 UTC
Curses.

See my bio for rates and services.
Martin Corwin
Doomheim
#59 - 2014-08-16 13:40:40 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Martin Corwin wrote:
Easy solution: ban multiboxing. It's pay-to-win imo, anyways. Banning multiboxing will solve other problems, too. Like, one player gatecamps, gold armor/gold ammo T3 link alt in system for "solo" pvpers and safe travel with scout alts. EvE is a massively multiplayer game, not a massively multitoon game.

Rebalancing ships or game mechanics just because of these pay-to-win types is stupid.

I assure you, these guys do not pay to win. They earn enough isk to pay for all of their accounts with plex bought from the market. No money from their pockets will come to EVE. They really are just locusts, not just in the ice fields, but the game in general.

Downloaded IPH and plugged in some numbers. Looks to me a maxed out Skiff with maxed Orca boost can mine about 23 million ISK worth of ice per hour. That's more than 1 hour per day at current plex prices to just plex that account. It's faster to run L4 missions with a maxed out mission runner.
Quote:

It's crazy when you think about it, that a large group of pure industrial ships can make so much isk risk free, they don't even need defensive ships to help guard them, they don't need intel channels, they never had to fight for anything.

Oh, I believe there's enough competition for mining ice at present. They fight for their share, alright. Not with guns, but with speed/efficiency.

No, I don't think it's crazy. It's only crazy to allow that efficiency boost that comes with multiboxing.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#60 - 2014-08-16 13:45:26 UTC
Faeana wrote:
Mara Pahrdi wrote:
Faeana wrote:
There are too many Procurers and Skiffs being used, almost everyone is using them. Clearly this ship type was made too powerful and an adjustment is needed. In the form of less hitpoints and the skiff should also lose a low slot because that ship has an imbalanced number of slots (too many).

Procurer and Skiff are fine. If you reduced their tank back to easily gankable levels, you'd have to do something about the other barges too, to keep the overall balance.

As mentioned above, the Orcas and freighters are the key to those operations. Still, it shouldn't even be possible or at least not sensible to multibox to this extent.


They just need reduce Proc/Skiff HP the right amount. They don't need to be easily gankable, just more gankable than they are now. Right now a Skiff has about 4 times more eff HP than a tanked Mackinkaw. That's the problem. Reduce this, so Skiff has about 2 times more, at the most. That's fair, anyone who whines about that just wants to see Procurers and Skiffs not being ganked at all. Reduce procurer tank to about 60% of what it is now too.

4 times a Mack? That would be in the range of 160k Shocked.

My Macks used to have a tank just above 42k. Procurers at something around 92k. I guess I could get my Skiffs above 120k with better implants and boosts, currently they are at about 115k with T2 Orca shield boosts and cheap implants. All figures pre Kronos, I didn't check for any changes in this area, since I don't mine at the moment.

To make them properly gankable, you'd have to bring them down to 50k. That's a reduction you'd have to compensate somehow.

Again, I don't think, the ships are the problem.

Remove standings and insurance.