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Dev blog: Size Matters: Introducing Burner Missions

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Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2014-08-14 17:37:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Neuting these NPCs won't have any effect, unfortunately.

Although these NPCs will be using some improved tactics compared to other NPCs they still rely on the same back-end. However simultaneous work is being performed on improving our NPC and content creation tools, and these missions will serve as excellent testing grounds for future NPC advancements.

I definitely understand the desire of many people to be able to run these missions at will, but unfortunately these missions will simply be too good to make them available all the time. I really like the idea of doing something with long cooldowns like the epic arcs in a future iteration, thanks for that feedback.


I can't speak on behalf of the rest of the community but I personally would just like more rewarding/challenging gameplay with smaller craft. Level 4 ISK/LP rewards are fantastic and all but I get burnt out running T3s and Battleships all the time. I would like to be able to fly Frigates/Cruisers with some half decent rewards as opposed to that paid out by level 1/2 missions. Big smile

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#82 - 2014-08-14 17:39:47 UTC
Marsan wrote:
This is a great idea, but why start with level 4 missions and vets. It's the new players that need this sort of pvp style missions.

The tutorial mission needs include pvp and pvp like missions. Ideally these should include:

- Sending the newbie into a number of simulated gate camps resembling LS and NS.

- Sending the newbie into a mission where they have to fit a scram, and prevent the NPC from warping out.

- Sending the newbie into a mission where they need to fit a warp stab.

- Sending the newbie into a Faction Warfare area and make them run a FW site or 2.

- Sending a newbie to free a trapped Dread. The newbie has to go in and jam/web/drain/... the NPC(s) to free the dread.

- Give them a newbie Dread let them blap a bunch of structures, and battleships then die in a blaze of glory.

- Give the newbie a newbie battlecruiser, battleship, or bomber for a taste of the end game, and let them keep it at the end of their mission.

(Note that newbie dreads can’t use jump drives nor can they fit through a Wormhole. So if they take the ship and not do the mission they have a newbie Dread stuck in a newbie system.)

This gives the newbie a taste of PVP, and Faction Warfare. Faction Warfare is IMNSHO the best intro into pvp, and LS/NS/WH. You can easily make enough isk to support a PVP habit.

The tutorial needs to teach concepts like scrams, bubbles, and gate camps. They need to learn to learn more than just mining and missions. They need to lose ships, and have their 1st LS experience not be losing their hard earned mission running ship to a gate camp.


the career agents make you do a few of these. One of them isn't a gate camp, but it is a trap and the mission completes when your ship explodes. There is a mission where the goal is to point an enemy. And while they don't have a Use ewar to save a friendly they do have a mission where you need to remote rep a friendly. and there is a suicide your frig to blow up an npc station mission.

I'm mostly against the warp stab mission idea, but if it blows em up anyways then I might like it, as anytime anyone fits stabs they probably should be blown up.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Escobar Slim III
YOLOSWAGHASHTAGDOLLARBILLZSWIMMINGPOOLICECREAMS
#83 - 2014-08-14 17:45:30 UTC
I truly belive that these items will be the market and make for better experience for all but at the same time yes they need to be ewar and also to do the pvp and make like an arena will this or not quite?
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#84 - 2014-08-14 17:46:03 UTC
Should be fun, get to use some frigate skills in PvE. Will have to start running L4's again so I can try these out.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#85 - 2014-08-14 17:46:16 UTC
Only five different opponents? I like the concept, but the whole fact of having these missions inside the regular level 4 pool makes it soooo uninteresting.

I don't want to grind stupid missions just to have a fun one from time to time.

Creating new content and integrating it to 11-years-old, broken and boring content, is very, VERY dissapointing. We would be better off without burner missions an with a brand new PvE system that actually rewards teamplay.

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[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Ovv Topik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2014-08-14 17:46:40 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
Quote:
The fact that these missions can only be received as part of the random level 4 security mission pool should prevent them from being too farmable.

If you're worried about farming you could instead limit them like you do with epics. Why make people sit through a bunch of, arguably, uninteresting and seen-before pve content before getting a luck-of-the-draw to get to new and exciting pve content?

Seconded. The random spawn is the only thing that puts me off.

Just limit how often you can run them.

"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7

voetius
Grundrisse
#87 - 2014-08-14 17:48:21 UTC

Looks like a step in the right direction. Some good points raised so far and hopefully if it works well it can be expanded to bigger ships.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#88 - 2014-08-14 17:53:05 UTC
My only concern is that if you try to balance for both single and multi players fighting the burner, do you end up with a situation where it is easy mode for a small gang and impossible for a single player?

The devil will be in the detail, if it is possible in a t1 frigate , well equipped with meta 4 or tech 2, but requiring one to improve ones tactics to actually complete the mission with a decent survival chance, one can learn to improve ones frigate flying until you succeed.

If you fly in in this form, having limited frigate experience and die in seconds, not so much.

I am a little concerned that in allowing multiple players in the balance might end up a little off.

We will see, but a brave and interesting idea regardless, I hope it works well.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Conjaq
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2014-08-14 17:54:33 UTC
I would be very careful regarding having deadspace modules drop from lvl 4 missions... Slippery slope
Igor Nappi
Doomheim
#90 - 2014-08-14 18:00:21 UTC
So if I understand correctly, you still need to cycle through the mind numbing normal LVL4s to occasionally get offered one of these burner missions?

Furthermore, I think that links must be removed from the game.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-08-14 18:01:05 UTC
First off, I like it. Forcing PvE players into more situations that resemble PvP can only be good in the long term. It sounds like these missions are going to require you to fit ships that handle themselves, and force the players to learn to use them - skills which should (hopefully) make bridging that gap for those that are interested less of a hurdle.

Very very pleased with the whole concept, and I hope this is one that CCP continues to iterate over up through the ship classes.
All my +1s for you Fozzie.

Conjaq wrote:
I would be very careful regarding having deadspace modules drop from lvl 4 missions... Slippery slope

The dev blog said faction loot, which I take to mean faction (as in Imperial Navy, Republic Fleet, etc), not deadspace (Gistii, Pithii, etc). I may be wrong in my interpretation, obviously. It is worth Fozzie clearing up, just so we know.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Beta Maoye
#92 - 2014-08-14 18:01:21 UTC
Great idea!

Why don't you put some "boss" beyond final jump gates of level 4 missions? Additional reward will be given if the boss is down.
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#93 - 2014-08-14 18:01:37 UTC
Conjaq wrote:
I would be very careful regarding having deadspace modules drop from lvl 4 missions... Slippery slope



so slippery that you can walk up it.

As there is no info on what faction stuff can drop it might only be the useless stuff that sells for penny.
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2014-08-14 18:05:30 UTC
Gain them randomly from doing L4s? No this is a terrible idea, a lot of L4 runners dont want them and most who want burner missions dont want L4s at all.

Best solution is definitely to drop keys or similar in L4s that can be sold on market and turned in to a agent to gain a burner mission. This gives those who does L4s the option between isk or burner while those who want to farm them the ability to do it unlimited while still having it regulated by market cost.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#95 - 2014-08-14 18:06:15 UTC
they could make FW missions into this, since it's a good fit, and FW missions need to a complete rethink anyway.
Kraizer793
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-08-14 18:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Kraizer793
As awesome as the idea is, I really don't think they'll be used.

The people who will be attracted to this type of mission are, in my experience, the type who won't want to bother grinding out traditional L4's in all their mind-numbing tedium.

The people who like L4's or run them for ISK's sake will likely just skip them. due to the risk and skill involved, just skipping it and going back to blitzing Dread Pirate Scarlet for the seventh time that day is much easier.

They need to be their own brand of mission, able to be done without having to deal with the existing missions which are an exercise in pressing F1 more than they are anything else. I think a lot of people will try them out initially, but after the new feature smell wears off, they'll fall to the wayside.

Perhaps reserve the Burners as "boss fights" for a new strain of mission, and traditional missions of this strain and pockets leading up to the Burner itself would contain less powerful variants of the Burners. 2-4 per pocket, still powerful, and still capable of causing a player to evaluate each mission and situation from a tactical perspective, and not from a "What damage type?" perspective.

+1. Step in the right direction.
Kenneth Skybound
Gallifrey Resources
#97 - 2014-08-14 18:09:18 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

also, sig tanking is actually speed tanking. or speed tanking is sig tanking. you cannot separate these things.

They're different when you shoot missiles at them.


if you're sitting perfectly still, yes.


Signature tanking is when signature is primary in saving you (dodging damage by being small, inherently small things tend to be fast). Typically relies on not getting hit/receiving a tiny % of the damage by being so small.

Speed tanking is when speed is primary in saving you. It's kiting to the extent that your sheer speed is what keeps you alive, nothing is able to get in range to hit you. The signatur aspect doesn't play in so much (see, MWD Navy Omen. Hardly sig tanking).

Both Signature and Speed tanking can use armor/shield improvements, most often repairs, but those repairs simply deal with what small % of damage is left. Their primary tank is the signature or speed. The difference is most pronounced at the cruiser level, orbiting a battleship up close vs outranging other cruisers from a distance.
Skyler Hawk
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#98 - 2014-08-14 18:12:29 UTC
Gotta say, it seems pretty crazy to say "we've made this new and (potentially) interesting pve content, but you've got to slog through a huge chunk of the boring old content to access it."

If the rewards are currently too good for burners to be readily accessible, why not just make them less rewarding and give people another option for their regular pve?
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#99 - 2014-08-14 18:12:53 UTC
Kenneth Skybound wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:

also, sig tanking is actually speed tanking. or speed tanking is sig tanking. you cannot separate these things.

They're different when you shoot missiles at them.


if you're sitting perfectly still, yes.


Signature tanking is when signature is primary in saving you (dodging damage by being small, inherently small things tend to be fast). Typically relies on not getting hit/receiving a tiny % of the damage by being so small.

Speed tanking is when speed is primary in saving you. It's kiting to the extent that your sheer speed is what keeps you alive, nothing is able to get in range to hit you. The signatur aspect doesn't play in so much (see, MWD Navy Omen. Hardly sig tanking).

Both Signature and Speed tanking can use armor/shield improvements, most often repairs, but those repairs simply deal with what small % of damage is left. Their primary tank is the signature or speed. The difference is most pronounced at the cruiser level, orbiting a battleship up close vs outranging other cruisers from a distance.


your idea of speed tanking is actually just kiting and range dictation.
Dave Stark
#100 - 2014-08-14 18:13:06 UTC
Dev Blog wrote:
The fact that these missions can only be received as part of the random level 4 security mission pool should prevent them from being too farmable.


and you've just made them, useless, and ****** content.

if i'm doing level 4 missions, it ain't in a goddamn frigate. it's in a ship that can't do them, it'll get instantly declined and disregarded.

either make them an alternative, or don't bother. just adding in missions i can't complete in my normal mission boat, to my normal mission agent is just another mission that i instantly disregard just like anything in low sec, more than 3 jumps away, or incurs faction standing losses.

on the bright side, at least you know it's a dumb idea and aren't imposing standing losses for your terrible implementation of what could have been an amazing addition to eve.