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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1361 - 2014-08-11 17:25:19 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
How does that help the game to have turns at rebalances?

I agree. And honestly, there aren't entirely that many ships that need a major overhaul - just a few tweaks.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#1362 - 2014-08-11 17:30:09 UTC
Ishtar is a unique well defined ship left in eve, most of the others are now a mix of features and flat attributes (like BC, all equal doesnt matter which I choose). I would like to see more unique ships, each really powerful on a niche and having a hard counter at least. Flattening the game trough balance will make it dull, I want to board a ship and really feel the unique experience of that
ship, and not just a skin with 500 dps @ 20 + 40km.

Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"

xlop
Doomheim
#1363 - 2014-08-11 17:30:58 UTC
Please leave the tempest alone! Blink
Justin Cody
War Firm
#1364 - 2014-08-11 17:41:49 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:


projectiles are not good enough. so your solution is to buff the tempest


Projectiles are more than good enough. Consider the following facts:

1) They use no capacitor
2) They apply damage better than their capacitor using counterparts (artillery track better than railguns for example)
3) They have the smallest fitting requirements in CPU and Power Grid of any type of weapons system
4) They can choose their damage type within a good range 3 short range, 2 mid range and 3 long range types.

So autocannons don't shoot as far as pulse lasers? So what? Lasers have a great optimal but a crap falloff, are restricted to EM/Thermal and use tremendous amounts of capacitor. Wanna beat an amarr laser boat? put a neut on it.

Vs blasters? again...neut them. Blasters have a similar range to autos...usually a longer optimal but smaller falloff. Blasters out DPS and out track them but again draw hideous amounts of cap and also is restricted to kin/therm.

railguns? - Pfft use artillery - sov fleets with eagles are only kinda meh. You never see them in small gangs being effective.

beam lasers? Wanna cap yourself out REALLY fast? use those. Their short range ammo isn't any better than most pulse laser ranges anyway. No real reason to use them.

Projectiles are right where they need to be. NOT OP.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1365 - 2014-08-11 17:43:04 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
How does that help the game to have turns at rebalances?

I agree. And honestly, there aren't entirely that many ships that need a major overhaul - just a few tweaks.


Recons and T3's need a lot of work

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#1366 - 2014-08-11 17:45:31 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Recons and T3's need a lot of work

I should have prefaced that with a disclaimer of ships that have already received a balance pass. Recons, T3s and Black Ops (to name a few) have yet to see any kind of serious overhaul - so yes, I agree.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#1367 - 2014-08-11 18:08:48 UTC
RE: The Tempest I've always liked it in nanopest loadout bridging the gap a bit between BCs and BS if it does change mid slot layout would be nice if it got the same shield/armor ratios as maelstrom so ~9300 or so shields (if it kept its current armor HP).
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#1368 - 2014-08-11 18:22:16 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190


yes i also believe that a ship with nearly twice the tank of the former should also be faster too!

you want to rebalance HACs? u do realise theres more than just 3 HACs in the game right?

CCP Rise wrote:

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.


Good, i understand the softly softly approach especially with a community that will jump on the opportunity of using something OP or ditching something completely thats nerfed into the floor :cough: heavy missiles :cough:

CCP Rise wrote:

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?


hate to see the near extinction of shield BS's having the final nail in its coffin slammed home with the last real shield BS becoming an obvious armor ship. but as it stands id rather see a rework of shield BS's in general to become viable in fleet warfare again.
Goin Off
Manson Family
Advent of Fate
#1369 - 2014-08-11 18:24:21 UTC
LOL, CCP doesn't address the issue again! The ishtar nerf you're proposing for this release is a bad joke at best. Does virtually nothing to re-balance the ishtar with its peers, because as a hac it has no peers. What?RollRoll
Justin Cody
War Firm
#1370 - 2014-08-11 18:38:10 UTC
The easiest way to rebalance the ishtar isn't through stats or bonuses. It is through control range. It needs a separate sentry control range. They should have to remain within 30km of wherever they drop their sentries. It allows some mobility while limiting the ships ability to be effective at *any* range.
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#1371 - 2014-08-11 18:42:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Inslander Wessette
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26





Remove a med slot from the Ishtar as well . It will b put into place for sure and + 1 med slot for munnin so that it can atleast b fit for sheild setups and hopes to have a prop jamming module
Xorth Adimus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1372 - 2014-08-11 18:47:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorth Adimus
Ishtar

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed -> this should be 0% per level
New bonus: 7.5% bonus to Medium Drone max velocity and tracking speed

Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty

This is a cruiser not a battleship if it uses battleship sized weapons I don't see why it should get damage application benefits too.

Muninn
-1 high +1 mid

On the typhoon armor tank, if you are serious about this either the Typhoon (preferred) or the Tempest could be setup to armor tank and a bonus should be changed to give a HP increase for doing this or a full 8 low slots allocated, otherwise, what is the point?

I however prefer the flexibility of Minmatar to fit shield or armor on more ships but the basic hull HPs have always been pretty bad, speed and signature is supposed to make up for this, but on battleship hull, in today's game, just buff the hps?
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1373 - 2014-08-11 21:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP A Suggestion put in the simplest possible terms.

Do not Nerf Ships or weapons systems. If the balance is wrong then Boost the counters.

Kneejerk reactions are the province of politicians trying to please the masses.
Glad to see you are resisting it.

You have another job.

To develop the tools and make the relationship BETWEEN the tools effective and balanced.

The players can then fight it out and pick the best tools and counters.

When one plays chess one does not continuously ask to rebalance the pieces, each one can, with intelligent play have a counter and be a counter to others.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Marc Durant
#1374 - 2014-08-11 21:51:20 UTC
Just make it 100M3 and drop the ship bonus to 5%, problem solved.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1375 - 2014-08-11 21:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Do not Nerf Ships or weapons systems. If the balance is wrong then Boost the counters.


It makes perfect sense that you would think power creep is a good thing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1376 - 2014-08-11 21:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Do not Nerf Ships or weapons systems. If the balance is wrong then Boost the counters.


It makes perfect that you would think power creep is a good thing.



I think intelligence is a good thing, rather than spouting platitudes and meaningless statements.
Looks like I am disappointed, but not less than I expected.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Echo Gunn
Mad Scientists At Work
#1377 - 2014-08-11 21:59:34 UTC
As a dedicated Hyperion pilot that rather enjoys the "niche", I only ask that maybe, just maybe, could we get a Navy or NPC faction Hyperion? Just needs a navy paint job and a buff to capacitor stability and I will call it good.
Jarod Garamonde
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1378 - 2014-08-11 22:09:00 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?




Am I the only one who feel like ALL Battleships should have 8 high slots?
I mean.... what's the point of a BShip that isn't armed to the teeth? Real-life ocean-going battleships are the scariest things on the water. It should be the same, in space.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Jiro Kobaiashi
Stille Gewalt
#1379 - 2014-08-11 22:59:22 UTC
I can only add here, what i have seen and expirienced so far by myself:

Ishtar
Even if as a gallente all 5 HAC Pilot i kinda loved it, is indeed OP. a 50 man Ishtar gang and even less makes a BS fleet hide in their POSes in Nullsec atm, even with the Battleship guys in far higher numbers. The sentry volley just alphas the Battleships ... The recieving end is a bitter thing.Ugh


Muninn

I can "all 5" fly that as well but i have never tried due to of better ships to fly until now, (ishtars for example) I might give that a try now ;) well done

Eagle
I had a late night session with a good friend with even more EFT experience than me, still we could not find any good fit that was equally fast, tanky and brutal enough to be worth the ISK. And with Railguns it is just a expansive sniper and until now at least the speed was just not enough for a blaster fit.

What I have read so far
The suggestion of a extra midslot for the Muninn appeared to me as a good idea.

The Armor Tempest is tempting, but in my opinion some bonuses to ship would be cooler. especially since Minmatar is defined by its vide variety of fitting possibilites. making it 8/4/7 would completely smack the shield tempest in the face we all love so much :/

The Vagabonds speed though was completely fine for me. the close range Deimos reaches above 2km/s with massive tank. A kiter like the Vaga musst be able to da something against this (so speed is ok). wich brings me to my next bulletpoint tho:


Suggestions


FIX THE VAGA - please !!!

-before the scrambler buff you could slightly dive under the enemy scrambler since your MWD would have finished its cycle. Nowadays the Vaga is often forced into closerange PVP with a scrambler on it. But with 4 Slots meaning after Propulsiona and point only 2 medslots left for an active tank, you can only lose. (imagine a Dual Rep Ion Deimos vs a Active Shield Vaga)

Of courser you can play the Vaga still like in the old days, but only one unlucky scram and you have one vaga less.
How would you want to build a active shield tank on a 4 medslots cruiser ??? I tried that as well with a good friend.
He has flown that ship for ages now. He sold all of them he had left, saying that i was impossible to make a halfdecent tank that comes somewhere near the abiliteis of the other HACs for that costs.

The Best thing you get is one XL-Ancillary Booster. But that one has only 9 Charges. Or maybe a dual large ancillary with 180s.

In conclusion tho the Vagabond is just a to big risk to fly, because it dies. Fast. And its impossible to use it how it is implied through the Bonuses.


Some last words

Thank you guys for the Phantasm. Its super fun to fly

All the best - jiro
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1380 - 2014-08-12 00:12:47 UTC
Jiro Kobaiashi wrote:
I can only add here, what i have seen and expirienced so far by myself:

The Vagabonds speed though was completely fine for me. the close range Deimos reaches above 2km/s with massive tank. A kiter like the Vaga musst be able to da something against this (so speed is ok). wich brings me to my next bulletpoint tho:


Suggestions


FIX THE VAGA - please !!!

-before the scrambler buff you could slightly dive under the enemy scrambler since your MWD would have finished its cycle. Nowadays the Vaga is often forced into closerange PVP with a scrambler on it. But with 4 Slots meaning after Propulsiona and point only 2 medslots left for an active tank, you can only lose. (imagine a Dual Rep Ion Deimos vs a Active Shield Vaga)

Of courser you can play the Vaga still like in the old days, but only one unlucky scram and you have one vaga less.
How would you want to build a active shield tank on a 4 medslots cruiser ??? I tried that as well with a good friend.
He has flown that ship for ages now. He sold all of them he had left, saying that i was impossible to make a halfdecent tank that comes somewhere near the abiliteis of the other HACs for that costs.

The Best thing you get is one XL-Ancillary Booster. But that one has only 9 Charges. Or maybe a dual large ancillary with 180s.

[u]In conclusion tho the Vagabond is just a to big risk to fly, because it dies. Fast. And its impossible to use it how it is implied through the Bonuses.



I used to agree to things like this when i was first experimenting with the vaga, but you're flying it wrong. It is a kiter, and it always will be a kiter, that's its niche, and getting caught by scram is its counter. It relies on being one of the fastest ships in the game (i think orthus/cynabal beat it now). Few other ships can keep up with it, all the while you plink away at their tank/cap boosters while they chase you. It murders frigates and brings down most other dedicated kiting cruisers, as they can't match the vaga's tank while kiting.

Lets consider the 4 slots, and the shield boost bonus. 1 LSE gives you 2625 HP or right over about 3K after skills. 1 OH LASB with vaga bonus gives you 6372 raw shield HP. With an OH XLASB, it jumps up to 13338 in raw shield HP. So, in those 2 tank slots, could potentially put out about 13k raw HP, or roughly, 4 LSE's worth of HP. This can be accomplished with either a dual LSB fit, or XLASB + LSE (which is about 16k raw HP total). Couple this in with a sexy minmatar t2 resist, and you don't need much to get a solid tank. The tank won't last long if you derp into a scram, but at kiting ranges where damage it mitigated by at least 60% or more on most ships, its quite a bit. ASB's also don't blow up sig like extenders do, but provide more raw HP than an extender.

With the XL ASB fit, you can fit 220's and an LSE on them. Total EHP is around 30-35K. Thats quite a bit for a kiter. You buff its tank more, you're going to have a very fast cruiser with a 700 dps tank or some 50K EHP buffer fit, that projects up to 40km, that only a few ships can catch. As much as i'd love to fly around in that kind of vagabond, it would be OP just like the ishtar.

If you wanted a brawly vagabond, it would need to get slower, and then it just becomes another brawler, instead of one of the fastest ships in the game that can kite decently.