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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Second Static for C4s

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Author
Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#41 - 2014-08-06 17:47:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
No.. No, no no please no...

Ok, so how to make this reasonable feedback:

As one of the few groups thats actually lived in a C4 for over a year now, and after living in the entire range of WH space, this is not what C4's need.. Now i get why you want to spice up C4's, and i fully support that, but lets first take a step back and ask what makes a wormhole good or bad, class/effect aside.. Its your statics. Everyone talking about their home system mention what statics they got, cause its a huge deal when choosing where you settle down.

I actually belive that the current statics of C4's do make them unique, since it gives you the "end game" wormholes those of us in small groups that dont want the capital evictions larger groups throws around willy nilly. C4 is the perfect place for a 3-8 man group that just want to have their own part of space, but still run the risk of incoming connections, balanced with the logistical hurdles of running a system with no direct kspace. Its also easy to roam looking for content in connecting holes and without the silly income levels of 5-6 that makes them a obvious choice if its the ISK your looking for.

Now i fully support the notion that a mixup with C4's would be a great thing, but please dont make it more statics.. I personally spoke with both Fozzy and Bettik at fanfest two years in a row now pushing the idea of more wanderings inside wspace and echoed this as a unique thing that could be given to lowsec (guess what, already added!), along with many others doing the same thing at the roundtables. But at least in my opinion, its a huge step from making them wandering and being statics. Sure, make it so C4's have a much larger chance of incoming and outgoing wandering connections, just dont make them permanent (and also keep C4's uniqueness that they cant have wandering into kspace please). Its the uncertainty of WH space we all love, not the things that are fixed rules. If it was my choice, no wormhole would have statics even, just a minimum of 1 wandering wh at all time, but you just never knew where it would exit.

As i said, i've lived in a C4 for over a year now, with the same small group of friends that have no interrest in taking part of the diplomacy/drama of Overlords anymore, and we enjoy being this size. As a result, we can easily be labeled as "wh carebears" and pushover targets or whatever, reason alone for having to post on a alt and not get RF within the next 24h.

But we love our C4 and its connectability. If you have a good static and enough numbers, the C4 is perfect to roam down the pipe and looking for interaction with other WH groups. If we only have a few online, we can run sites with pretty much the same risk of invaders as the lower classes can (C2 ofc have somewhat higher,tradeoff being always a kspace), and the scaling of income from 1-4 is not completely out of line, making it a reasonable choice where to settle in that range based on risk/reward/human workload. Again, in its current state, C4 is the endgame of small WH groups that want to remain independant. If anything, the curve should maybe be smoothed out a bit between the lower classes and the huge jump from 4 to 5, but thats another topic. Yes, they also put a lot more on the line to get that income, not saying its unbalanced, just make more of a choice if you want a C4 or C5 if you have the numbers for it.. Nobody that have numbers to live in a C5 choose a C4 instead, but that has nothing to do with how many statics it have or how well connected it could be, and thats more where the "problems" of lower statistics in C4s come from, not how connected it is. Nobody complains about the number of connections a C5 have, the issue with entire range of 4-6 and connections is fine in its current state as long as you just implement the increased rate of wanderings as also suggested for Hyperion. Its just making it more likely for a larger group in C5-C6 to harass the small groups of C4, one of the good tradeoffs you really had from living in that range. Now i want more interaction between WH space, just not push C4 deeper down into the dirt.

A 2nd static in C4 will only make the transits from C1-3 and up into C5-6 easier, its probably instead going to have a negative effect on how many actually live in C4. Its a change that makes life easier for C5+ groups being able to reach larget parts of w-space quickly (something i think is still a good thing), but it will also increase the risk of living in a C4 so much higher that its no longer worth it compared to living in a C3 or lower. Making 70mill a site vs 90mill when tradeoff is double the chance of someone roaming into you? Dont think so.. I know for a fact that my group will move out of our current C4 if this change takes effect, and instead go back to a C3 with lowsec/nullsec static and have our pvp-content there instead of actually being more interacted with the rest of the WH community, something i would again think was a sad choice to make.

If you need more C4 residents to confirm/deny this being a good thing, why not ask former pilots of SUSU (many now having moved on to NoHo, Hard Knocks etc) and why they left C4 for higher classes. Im sure none of them will say its because it only had 1 static.

In conclusion, i would love to have some changes to make C4's no longer the ginger stepchild of WH space, and again if that could be a huge increase in wandering connections emerge in them into other parts of wspace, that would be great!! But making them statics would give such a huge impact that i fear its result would be that you still get your metrix with higher number of jumps and so on, and the actual number of people choosing to settle down in them would be dropping.

So i stand by my "no, no no", and as a last plea to Corbexx: if you allow this to happen on your watch, i will regret the day i gave you my vote to represent the really small groups in lower class WH space..
Pseudo Ucksth
Camellia Void Cartographics
#42 - 2014-08-06 17:54:11 UTC
I wonder about those corps who sought out c4>c4 wormholes for their isolation on purpose.

They're going from Yoda's hovel on Dagobah to Grand Central Station in one patch.
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#43 - 2014-08-06 18:01:59 UTC
I’m not sure what you’re making in c3's but I know how much you can make solo in a c4...... The only thing I could see being done is lower the stupid spawn ranges and make more than 2 sites viable to run to make isk (do npcs really need to spawn 200+km from warp in?).

C4 income doesn’t require a buff other than making it more scalable for small-mid size groups it shouldn’t discourage you to run sites with your corp mates over solo. The duel static does push towards making c4 site running with a couple scout alts less risk free and encourage you to do it as a group but could use some more incentive.
Pashko Morgan
0ffline Corporation
#44 - 2014-08-06 18:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pashko Morgan
Our corp is living in c4 with c3 static. 2nd c4 static coupled with other changes mentioned in devblog leads for more headache and nothing more for our corp. Lets list all the stuff:
1. Logistics. Not a problem at all with current 1 static system. 3 months ago we had one day with our folks with a "4 jumps to Jita" exit from our c3 static. Every one made about 5 mammoth runs back and forth and collapsed the hole with orca's. I repeat it was ONE day for half a year amount of pos fuel, ammo, structures, backup pos, multiple modules and minerals. T3 and other stuff was brought to home system here and there because its not a problem at all.

With 2 statics we will face more possibilities to get a lucky "4 jumps to Jita" route as well as we'll need at least one more pilot/client for 2nd static backup and surveilence. That will count as MINUS.

2. Scanning. Every time I log in I have 3 ways to start the EvE(ning) - scan myself / check the corpbooks if scan was done by corpies / set scouts near activated holes and go for some bloot. With new approach for more random wh's and 2nd c4 static the scan time will go from half an hour to an hour AT LEAST. I mean real wh scan, bookmarking ALL the sigs, doing 200km spots near active posses, wormholes, checking Z-kb / wormhol.es etc. That will count as MINUS.

3. Iskies VoV. Okay average isk/hr is 250 and 200 for c4 and c3 farming respectively. Our corp was always hitting about 200 and 150 beacause of chat/afks/etc. Thats the time we can spend while noone will disturb us, no statics activated, no k162 active. Now lets turn on the devblog approach. The probability that there are no k162 in our home c4 becomes twice less at least (more dynamic wh's, more guests from c4-4-X and from their k162's). Some guests will activate our statics willing to find some pew or logistic routes. So we'll have to collapse not one but two holes. Again, less and less time for pewing sleeper drones. That counts as MINUS. As long as you dont plan to raise sleeper rewards in C4 it will become even more deserted and uninhabited than now.

4. PvP. Plainly more wh's - more chances to find pew. We're doing the subcap fights so eject distance after wh jump will not effect us that much, That counts as an obvious juicy PLUS.

5. "K162 appearance only on first jump" thing. This is not strictly the start post subject though it IS connected with the 2nd static, isnt it? We were dropped 5 times while shooting sleepers. I personally dropped bears 50+ times and from my perspective the "check anomaly" feature didnt help anyone who was half asleep while carebearing. Neither will combat probes if the carebear is half asleep and hit probes scan and d-scan buttons once every 3-4 minutes. That counts as USELESS.

The little summary of the upcoming wh devblog for my c4-3 corp: More minuses and one plus. More routing scanning. More scanning windows/live pilots. Same profits (or lower according to more time spent for routine scanning). More chances to get wormhole pvp (lets not decide if it is good or not).

o/

Pashko Morgan was sucked through the wormhole to the unknown parts of space.
Cirillith
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-08-06 18:13:03 UTC
First of all - Thank you CCP Fozzie for publishing that Devblog.

Now to the point :)

Well - I think this will be nice change... from perspective someone who doesn't live in c4 :) - For me finding c4 chain (usually this looks like this: c5(c6 or c2)->c4->c4->c4->.....->c4->something) now is kinda boring. Now after change it will be more interesting and more sense checking c4 for connections.

On the other hand - I never lived there (I was in C6 C5 or C2). Right now I'm on my vacations in C2 with two statics and it gives you nice freedom - since you can roll both holes and send 2 teams of scouts in two different directions.

One really big issue although here - PLS - C4 should stay without connection to K-space. It's something that makes them unique and taking that back from them would be bad decision.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#46 - 2014-08-06 18:13:11 UTC
People complaining about money from c4s being too low is a joke. Not high compared to many k-space activities, but for wormholes it is top, bar escalations.
Traffic will also not really change by how many statics you have since you just close them anyways if you don´t need them right now. It is already way down since many of the big/good c2-c4/high corps have closed their doors in the past 2 years. Very few people actually like having a c4static for anything other but farming. The number of pvp corps with a c5/6 static c4 is probably in the single digits. Also the c4 guys will always have the capitaladvantage, there are some in almost every c4.
The only thing this changes that people will see static c4s as a useful thing again and so c4s will stop being the australian outback where you log in once every few days, farm your sites and never meet a living soul in weeks.
Also it will already change with the addition of more random holes.
Kp Amelia
La Vecindad
Initiative Mercenaries
#47 - 2014-08-06 18:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kp Amelia
forsot wrote:
I’m not sure what you’re making in c3's but I know how much you can make solo in a c4...... The only thing I could see being done is lower the stupid spawn ranges and make more than 2 sites viable to run to make isk (do npcs really need to spawn 200+km from warp in?).

C4 income doesn’t require a buff other than making it more scalable for small-mid size groups it shouldn’t discourage you to run sites with your corp mates over solo. The duel static does push towards making c4 site running with a couple scout alts less risk free and encourage you to do it as a group but could use some more incentive.


C3s payout an average of 70mill per site while C4s payout an average 90mill, but are much harder, and will now become much less safe. This patch will push more people out of C4s then it will attract them in.

The idea of "adding a new entry point will make them more used" is very short sighted especially due to the fact that their biggest problem was inefficient isk making in the first place. That's why I stated if they want their reward needs to be increased, not only to fix their previous weakness, but to now make them even worth living in with the increased risk.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2014-08-06 18:16:10 UTC
sounds like fun I like this change a lot.

RIP c4 bears, you will not be missed <3
Fonac
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2014-08-06 18:20:51 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
People complaining about money from c4s being too low is a joke. Not high compared to many k-space activities, but for wormholes it is top, bar escalations.
Traffic will also not really change by how many statics you have since you just close them anyways if you don´t need them right now. It is already way down since many of the big/good c2-c4/high corps have closed their doors in the past 2 years. Very few people actually like having a c4static for anything other but farming. The number of pvp corps with a c5/6 static c4 is probably in the single digits. Also the c4 guys will always have the capitaladvantage, there are some in almost every c4.
The only thing this changes that people will see static c4s as a useful thing again and so c4s will stop being the australian outback where you log in once every few days, farm your sites and never meet a living soul in weeks.
Also it will already change with the addition of more random holes.



I dont want to sound rude or personal. But you simply dont know what you're talking about.

iskwise, the numbers are out there. undisbutable numbers.

The thing about having caps, in c4's. Not so sure, i mean, there isn't really a benefit for having one in a c4, other than easy farming is there?

Mindraak
Points Mean Prizes
#50 - 2014-08-06 18:22:28 UTC
Love this idea... we have been waiting ages for this

+1
Delveling
Glowing Goat
Black Fence.
#51 - 2014-08-06 18:31:38 UTC
Fonac wrote:

A C3 site, average out at about 60-80 million isk


sadly.. no
Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2014-08-06 18:39:01 UTC
Really nice seing all the non-C4 residents going "+1, great change", and those that actual living in C4 saying they fear its a bad thing, forcing people to move away from C4 instead of drawing more people into it.. Congrats non-C4 people, you might just get your own personal highway-class of WHs, with no targets in them..
Mancerk Latzo
Phantom Troupe.
#53 - 2014-08-06 18:52:01 UTC
C4's need to be more profitable. They aren't worth the time and risk for their current payout.
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#54 - 2014-08-06 18:53:58 UTC
Sanuki Sukuuvestaa wrote:
Really nice seing all the non-C4 residents going "+1, great change", and those that actual living in C4 saying they fear its a bad thing, forcing people to move away from C4 instead of drawing more people into it.. Congrats non-C4 people, you might just get your own personal highway-class of WHs, with no targets in them..


This change is opening up c4's for the masses that currently reside in c2's that actually have interest in interacting with the rest of eve and pushes out all the hermits and farmers. while making room for newer groups to form in c2's its beneficial for the community as a whole.
Delveling
Glowing Goat
Black Fence.
#55 - 2014-08-06 18:55:02 UTC
Where is this average of 60M per site in C3 coming from?? It's 60M per if you are really lucky from combat sites, more from data/relic sites but those things are so rare it's not 'average'. C3 combat anoms drop from 32-27M in blues and you are sure as **** not getting 10 melted nanos/site in average.. math ppl..
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#56 - 2014-08-06 18:55:16 UTC
Fonac wrote:
[I dont want to sound rude or personal. But you simply dont know what you're talking about.

iskwise, the numbers are out there. undisbutable numbers.

The thing about having caps, in c4's. Not so sure, i mean, there isn't really a benefit for having one in a c4, other than easy farming is there?



Neigher do I want to be rude or personal, but just because you make up numbers doesn´t make them true. I have spent the majority of my wormholelife in a c4 or with a c3/4 static. You could pull out those 70M from a c3, even a bit more, at a time when ribbons were over 6M and mag/radarloot was actually worth something. But c4s were always at least 20% more isk/h. Only difference are the minimal requirements to run the sites. And now you have assigned fighters with OP stats or marauders for your home C4.
Corbexx´s research on sitepayouts also shows the same pattern.
And if having the only capitals in a system isn´t a forcemultiplier for PvP I do not know how much more you´d want.

We also have no idea if there will indeed be highend and lowend statics in one hole or if it will stay divided.
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#57 - 2014-08-06 19:00:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
I would prefer to see a large number of dynamics added to C4's in lieu of a second static. The second static is predictable and thus less interesting than the randomness of wondering how many dynamics might exist and where they might lead to.

Also dynamics are more easily adjusted in quantity, either up or down after the change is experienced. I don't live in a c4, but if you suddenly changed my homes statics I would be bitterly unhappy. The static change will likely cause chaos for people that suddenly find they have a static which leads to a corner of space they do not want to visit and now suddenly feel like they have to move. Dynamics however are more subtle and to a lesser degree change the deal that they signed up for when the hole was selected as home.
Bronya Boga
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2014-08-06 19:11:39 UTC
Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
[u wrote:
If you need more C4 residents to confirm/deny this being a good thing, why not ask former pilots of SUSU (many now having moved on to NoHo, Hard Knocks etc) and why they left C4 for higher classes. Im sure none of them will say its because it only had 1 static.[/u]


Ok well ill respond. First off there are no ex-sus in noho ot HK. Some left wspace most (more recently) joined isogen 5.

So for the topic at hand. SUSU left our C4/C3 because we outgrew it with the membership and assets we had. A move to a c5 of any sort was the next logical move. Now would have we moved out of our c4 if we had 2 statics? Maybe. But it would have been a much harder choice I can assure you of that. Dual static C4 make them for prime hanting grounds much like C2s are these days. If you thought 5/2 were good, 5/4 sound even more fun
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#59 - 2014-08-06 19:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: forsot
double post
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#60 - 2014-08-06 19:29:54 UTC
forsot wrote:
Kp Amelia wrote:
[quote=forsot]I’m not sure what you’re making in c3's but I know how much you can make solo in a c4...... The only thing I could see being done is lower the stupid spawn ranges and make more than 2 sites viable to run to make isk (do npcs really need to spawn 200+km from warp in?).



C4 income doesn’t require a buff other than making it more scalable for small-mid size groups it shouldn’t discourage you to run sites with your corp mates over solo. The duel static does push towards making c4 site running with a couple scout alts less risk free and encourage you to do it as a group but could use some more incentive.


C3s payout an average of 70mill per site while C4s payout an average 90mill, but are much harder, and will now become much less safe. This patch will push more people out of C4s then it will attract them in.

The idea of "adding a new entry point will make them more used" is very short sighted especially due to the fact that their biggest problem was inefficient isk making in the first place. That's why I stated if they want their reward needs to be increased, not only to fix their previous weakness, but to now make them even worth living in with the increased risk.

edit....bad at posting