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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Anthar Thebess
#1161 - 2014-08-06 10:09:32 UTC
I have strange feeling that this topic is now more about how some weapon system's don't work as they should , rather than about what HAC needs changing.

HAM's need their sped increased, to get to target much faster.

Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much.

What about Minin and eagle?

So projectile and hybrid guns?

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1162 - 2014-08-06 10:12:27 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much.


range reduction, not tracking
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1163 - 2014-08-06 10:16:13 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much.


range reduction, not tracking



TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class. Their rang on other hand is not.

They need range because they are not mobile. Turrets can coutner range issues by movign the ships. Sentries are deployed and stay, so they NEED to have logn range or they become usless very very fast.

The problem is their tracking, because they can track as short range guns, while hitting at long range guns ranges.

Just make them track EXACLTY as 425mm, 1400mm and Tachyons and everything will be all right.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1164 - 2014-08-06 10:16:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class.


no it isn't
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1165 - 2014-08-06 10:16:54 UTC
How about this -

make the drone sentry and heavy drone bonus apply to all drones
then make this a medium drone aimed ship

This is what i was thinking

Gallentee Cruiser Bonuses
7.5% Bonus to drone MWD, Tracking & Optimal range per level
10% Bonus to drone Damage & HP

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonues
+1 Drone controled per level
+5km Drone control range per level

Reduce bandwidth to 100

This would mean that in an optimal fit it is designed to work with 10 medium drones.
but it can still field 4 sentries if needed.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1166 - 2014-08-06 10:19:50 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I have strange feeling that this topic is now more about how some weapon system's don't work as they should , rather than about what HAC needs changing.

HAM's need their sped increased, to get to target much faster.

Sentry drones needs their tracking speed reduced heavily to make ishar less OP in PVP without affecting PVE aspect of drone ships to much.

What about Minin and eagle?

So projectile and hybrid guns?



That is just a good example that CCP schedule of changes quite frequently is not focusing on the real issues. Every time a weapon system was adjusted, it was overly adjusted and made damage to the meta game.

When they buffed lasers ( with 30% more tracking and reducing 10% of base EM resist of every ship) they became dominant wepaon. Then they buffed projectiles and it became dominant, then they nerfed projectiles (track ing enhancer nerf and nerfs to all minmatar ships during tiercide) whiel double boosting hybrids ( massive hybrids buffs with buffs to almsot all gallente boats).. they became dominant.. then they rebalance drone and give them damage mods ans super bonuses to drone boats. THey became dominant.


Hint CCP.... boost things more carefully and frequently. Then you will not have to nerf later.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1167 - 2014-08-06 10:20:51 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class.


no it isn't



Yes it is, on that table 2 pages ago. Clear as water. Multiply the range for the trackign to have an effective trackign ratio (because range affects the engagement envelope)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1168 - 2014-08-06 10:23:20 UTC
Vulfen wrote:
How about this -

make the drone sentry and heavy drone bonus apply to all drones
then make this a medium drone aimed ship

This is what i was thinking

Gallentee Cruiser Bonuses
7.5% Bonus to drone MWD, Tracking & Optimal range per level
10% Bonus to drone Damage & HP

Heavy Assault Cruiser Bonues
+1 Drone controled per level
+5km Drone control range per level

Reduce bandwidth to 100

This would mean that in an optimal fit it is designed to work with 10 medium drones.
but it can still field 4 sentries if needed.


more like 50 bandwidth, 30% bonus to medium drone damage/hp per level, and swap the drone controlled bonus to a non-bonus like armour reps.
I don't really like just drone mwd bonuses. should be drone speed with equal drone tracking bonus. or they could just fix the 'drones catch up and fire a volley, drones slow down and go out of range for 30s, drones catch up' thing, but obviously that'll never happen.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#1169 - 2014-08-06 10:24:44 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Knoppaz wrote:


..or the Sacrilege. This ship isn't that bad. It has two main problems:
1. It feels sluggish. Even with MWD it feels like using an AB. An agility-push would be nice, CCP.
2. It's missing a low. That utility high is nice, but a low instead would be far more useful (e.g. for a BCU, IS or EANM) Just leave the meds alone.

..or.. your turn ;)

I kinda like the Sacrilege slot layout, it gives the ship a niche that few other have with lot of utilitty, a hi slot, a bunch of mids and a decent drone bay.
I do agree that it feel way too sluggish, especialy if you fit a plate, I think it could use the "heavy mass and boost base speed" new gen Amarr rebalance.
Wouldn't hurt the Zealot too.


Yup - lets make all HACs the same, let me have agility and speed like a ... oh dear, not like a vagabond, its got crap range and application and is now totally redundant.

Its odd in this discussion how there is one ship that works a charm. We all know it.

The only problems I see with the one ship thing is how we compare it to everything else. The tiny change they are proposing will do nothing, and people who go from 800-1000 dps on an Ishtar, with shield or armour for their gang will simply look at the others on offer and laugh.

The DPS from all the other HACs is predicated on conditions about how they perform, getting to the target, holding it down, or sniping it at range, and keeping that range.

My bugbears aside, I think this discussion would be much more interesting if we didn't have the stupid problem of Ishtar/Sentries.

So those asking to keep Ishtar the way it is, then we would need to balance the others to offer:

  • Both exceptional range and brawling capability
  • DPS above 700
  • Shield or Armour capability
  • Speed / Agility
  • Capless weapons
  • No weapon reloads
  • Double their tracking or double their weapon ranges.
  • Instant ammo switching.
  • Fittings that ignore their main weapons.
  • Immune to POS auto fire
  • Excellent anti frigate/ cruiser/ battleship capability.


So can you double my Munnins DPS, can you make Arty fit for zero, track like 180mm autos, have instand ammo switching and reloading (will help with DPS). I can now take it on POS bashes, with that 700+ DPS, its now better than all my POS bashing battleships.

I will now be able to choose ... Ishtar or Munnin.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1170 - 2014-08-06 10:26:27 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class.


no it isn't



Yes it is, on that table 2 pages ago. Clear as water. Multiply the range for the trackign to have an effective trackign ratio (because range affects the engagement envelope)


is this the table where all the turrets have -50% optimal range ammo loaded? 'same class' is just a thing you decided, and has no actual real basis. if you want to take range into account for effective tracking, then a range nerf would do this, with the added advantage of being an actual thing that matters lots and not being totally avoidable by competent people who know what webs and painters are.
Knoppaz
distress signals
#1171 - 2014-08-06 10:27:29 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Knoppaz wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Hands off my utility high.

The Sac needs a bit more speed, as you mentioned, but overall the Sacrilege is an amazing ship. It's the Legion-lite, and it kicks ass and looks good doing it.

The only thing I would really change about the ship, is not about the ship itself, but rather that Heavy Assault Missiles need buffed pretty badly.



The speed is ok imho, but the agility is lacking. Also I absolutely understand that people like the utility slot though another low would really be helpful.
Besides, why does everyone having problems with HAMs?



Because those are HAM's.
They are just to slow, and faster moving target can easily outrun those missiles.



Sure they're slow, but still fast enough for cruisers and above (not talking about the Vaga/Stabber or Cynabal here)..
Anyway, back to topic..

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity
Anthar Thebess
#1172 - 2014-08-06 10:28:36 UTC
Sentry drones have better tracking than guns in PVP also from very simple reason.

In pvp you usually have to move.
Static target is dead target.
So tracking you have to take into consideration not only moving speed of enemy ship, but also speed of your own ship.

Sentry drones on the other hand are static, so only speed of target needs to be taken into consideration.

Aaaand we also have gun cycle time.
Sentries shoot more often , so missing 1/4 of shoots is way less impacting than missing 1/4 of shoots from 1400.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1173 - 2014-08-06 10:29:30 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Sentries shoot more often , so missing 1/4 of shoots is way less impacting than missing 1/4 of shoots from 1400.


no, it isn't.
Knoppaz
distress signals
#1174 - 2014-08-06 10:41:37 UTC
Rab See wrote:
[quote=Odithia]

Yup - lets make all HACs the same, let me have agility and speed like a ... oh dear, not like a vagabond, its got crap range and application and is now totally redundant.

Its odd in this discussion how there is one ship that works a charm. We all know it.

...more stuff...

So can you double my Munnins DPS, can you make Arty fit for zero, track like 180mm autos, have instand ammo switching and reloading (will help with DPS). I can now take it on POS bashes, with that 700+ DPS, its now better than all my POS bashing battleships.

I will now be able to choose ... Ishtar or Munnin.



Dude, noone wants to make all HAC the same, but the Sac is a short-range ship due to HAMs so it needs the ability to cover the range. It's speed is ok, but it takes ages to get to max speed so a boost in agility makes sense, no?

And let's just forget that non-sense comment about the Muninn and uber-tracking arties.. you really need to relax a bit..

Knoppaz / distressSIGNALS http://distresssignals.tumblr.com

a capsuleer's way to insanity
Anthar Thebess
#1175 - 2014-08-06 10:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
LOL.
Remember that we are comparing Drones ( DPS) to 1400 guns ( Alpha ).
When you loose 1/4 of your alpha - target will probably not die.
When you loose 1/4 of your dps - you have still enough DPS to kill your target , as drones are used in very big masses.

This is all off topic you will get about this.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1176 - 2014-08-06 11:05:07 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
is this the table where all the turrets have -50% optimal range ammo loaded?


In fairness, that is because it is the only way they get near the DPS values, there is a later chart showing the drop using equal range ammo.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1177 - 2014-08-06 11:07:59 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class.


no it isn't



Yes it is, on that table 2 pages ago. Clear as water. Multiply the range for the trackign to have an effective trackign ratio (because range affects the engagement envelope)


is this the table where all the turrets have -50% optimal range ammo loaded? 'same class' is just a thing you decided, and has no actual real basis. if you want to take range into account for effective tracking, then a range nerf would do this, with the added advantage of being an actual thing that matters lots and not being totally avoidable by competent people who know what webs and painters are.



If you select other ammo .. then the issue is EVEN worse because then sentries have damage of SHORT range guns, range of Long Range guns and tracking of short range guns.


Sentries are completely MESSED UP

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#1178 - 2014-08-06 11:52:50 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

TRACKING.. not range. Their trcking is 3 times other weapons of same class.


no it isn't



Yes it is, on that table 2 pages ago. Clear as water. Multiply the range for the trackign to have an effective trackign ratio (because range affects the engagement envelope)


is this the table where all the turrets have -50% optimal range ammo loaded? 'same class' is just a thing you decided, and has no actual real basis. if you want to take range into account for effective tracking, then a range nerf would do this, with the added advantage of being an actual thing that matters lots and not being totally avoidable by competent people who know what webs and painters are.



If you select other ammo .. then the issue is EVEN worse because then sentries have damage of SHORT range guns, range of Long Range guns and tracking of short range guns.


Sentries are completely MESSED UP


gardes and mega pulse lasers aren't so out of whack.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1179 - 2014-08-06 12:07:22 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:

gardes and mega pulse lasers aren't so out of whack.


Bouncers are the largest problem. But gardes are still a bit out of place. You compare them to pulses.. but pulses use a LOT of fitting and a LOOOT of capacitor. So would be expected that gardes would be a tad UNDER pulses, not a tad above them.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1180 - 2014-08-06 12:09:07 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Just because you chose to believe in fairies that does not make them exist. Sentry drones have 400 m resolution, they ARE battleships scale weapons. And worse they do not cost fittings. They are already overpowered at the dominix... in the ishtar they are completely broken.

CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.