Wormholes

Thanks and ignore the raging basement trolls in here. I belong to one of these small groups which would supposedly be driven out of WH space within days of this change and I am not thinking about canceling my sccounts. I don't think the current iteration is the best idea but any change to freshen up WH space is welcome. To be honest, I live in a WH with a 3bn static and always found it a bit strange how easy it is to roll it by myself with 2 Orcas and a scout.

Looking forward to the dev blog.

Ill just quote you fozzie to give you my input.

My corporation is relatively new to WH space, and I think I can offer a viewpoint of a reasonably experienced PVP corporation making the move to WH space.

Its already ******* hard. You need to have good numbers, good skillpoints, and a good combined shipclasses to even start to make a dent in WH space. You need to have decent numbers online to accomplish anything, and even then it is risky as hell.

I love this part about WH space, and the only thing that even comes close to making it manageable is the ability for me to quickly and easily close holes. Either rolling for new PvE, closing hostile holes, or rolling for kspace connections.

With lower numbers, making my dread spawn up to 40km away from the wormhole means that I now have a very expensive asset that I am unable to protect. You are basically making it so my time to roll a hole is 10x as long, where someone like hard knocks who has numbers is able to endlessly roll with impunity because of their access to numbers. I need to use battleships and hics to close, when they can just roll with dreads knowing the can support it if it gets tackled. Others have commented on fleet stuff so I wont bother. This also eliminates one of the few defensive actions I can make by bubbling the opposite side of the hole. I cant even do the 150km jump out if I bubble as well.

Not only is this a bad design idea in the first place, but it HEAVILY favors established and numerous corporations. Its basically making it impossible for smaller corps/alliances from putting their foot in the door in wormhole space which is exactly the opposite direction you should be making. We need MORE bodies and groups into WH space, not more super large groups.

This is absolute madness, and I think when all of WH space is absolutely 100% against it.. you need to re-evaluate the decision to change it.

Chester

I'll hold further judgement until I see the actual plans, and the full list of other proposed changes. I hope we'll be listened to at that point if we disagree with some or all of them.

I could maybe be convinced that spawning a cap between 8k and 6k from a hole would be a good idea (would prevent them from immediately jumping back, but keeps them within what could already happen). Any further than that is just ridiculous and would make it far more difficult to use caps in w-space than it already is.

People roll with a gang larger than that, except they're in the correct ships for the fight they're looking for instead of all being in rolling battleships. Having to wait for half your fleet to go back to their poses and change ships is going to lead to losing fights.

Well you know whats silly? People complain about "logic" and ccp...

Meanwhile on reddit?

What are you thinking with this change? 38 Points (74 % liked this)


Guys you are sending mixed signals

Not a fan of this plan. I remember it coming up at Fanfest and there was a lot of interest in shaking things up a little, but I don't remember *anyone* liking the idea of things appearing further from the hole the heavier they are...

One of the reasons this absolutely kills smaller groups is that (for those anywhere else than a C2) you only have one static.

If you can't roll your hole for content, rolling into a large group is the kiss of death for your entire corporation for a 24hr period or whenever the larger group decides it doesn't want to be able to camp you in with a single scout. (From personal experience, there are lots of folks that will do this all day until you go suicide enough isk to them that maybe they decide to be nice and roll your static for you).

This sort of meta is what stops smaller groups from either coming to w-space at all, or coming for a brief time and leaving in disgust before they have the time to get established, grow, and join the community. This specific change makes this meta much stronger, which is one reason I firmly believe that it's going to be a net negative for the health of w-space, regardless of whether it generates more ~content~ for large groups that have already become established.


Additionally, all of the discourse so far has revolved around PVP. I know that most of you aren't in corp leadership currently or haven't been in the past, but there's an awful lot of logistics that happens to keep your towers fueled and ships available for purchase, loot hauled out, etc. This change, as it currently stands, means that no one in their right mind would take a freighter or JF into w-space. As an example, we currently do things like "put enough mass on the hole that two JF passes will close it", bring the JF in, if it gets tackled, it instantly jumps out and back to the exit cyno. This is BASIC precautions for throwing around 6bil + contents in wormhole space... it's a giant pain in the ass to do things this way as is, but it's nice to not subject corp members to a fleet where everyone gets in iterons and ferries things up and down a decently-sized chain. For multiple hours.


tl;dr making rolling harder makes it easier to camp small groups, who will get bored and leave w-space. also makes large-scale logistics even more suicidal and subjects members to hauling fleets on a regular basis, which makes members get bored and leave w-space.

- Corbexx, I hope this is reasonable discussion enough for you. I tried hard not to rage.
- CCP Fozzie, please stop just randomly letting us find stuff on Sisi when you're changing w-space mechanics in major ways. The fact that all the CSM folks seemed to be just as surprised as we were is a incredibly large red-flag for players and says terrible things for the state of the relationship between the game designers and the CSM.

So, if you get jumped further away from the wh depending on shipclass, does this also mean that bigger ships can jump a wh from a bigger distance? Would make sense, wouldnt it.

Anyway, stop messing around, and fix our POS'es!

Lots of people rageroll with gangs smaller than a dozen pilots. Actually, a good chunk of corps in low-class w-space would be ecstatic if they had a dozen pilots in fleet for an op scheduled weeks in advance. Not everyone is your size, far from it.