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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Anthar Thebess
#741 - 2014-08-01 09:38:58 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Adjust drone sizes and bandwidth:
- small 5 m3 /mb
- medium 10m3 /mb
- heavy 20m3 /mb
- sentry 25m3 /mb

Adjust Isthar to have only 100 mb..

you're forgetting the rattlesnake, this way it would be able to add two small or a medium to its ultrabonused two heavy.
also there's geko to consider, if you reduce their bandwidth to 40 ships with 125 would be able to launch 3 (carriers 9...), if you dont it would be a nerf.

No it will not be able , as it can use only 2 drones.

On the other hand.
All ships having 100 Mb could deploy 5 heavy drones , but only 4 sentry drones.

This could be the thing that will make people using heavy drones again.

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Captain Semper
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#742 - 2014-08-01 09:42:19 UTC
Ishtar problem are not in ishtars - sentry, this is a problem.

Main point of hole thread - sentries and cruisers must be separated. Because it is a large weapon. 600 dps with 100km optimal and custom tank and ewar immune and damage type variations?

Cerb have 476 dps at 100km with kinetic only. And cerb strong. But ishtar dont need to dock for change "long range to close range". Just use gardes.
So you need to nerf sentry usability for ishtar, and -12.5% optimal is realy do nothing.

Ishtars sentries must work at total 100-120km with optimal+falloff, not only optimal (and 100-120 with 2 omni ofc).
So just remove range bonus.
And mb slots layout to 4-4-6 (more armor oriented but still can shield tank )
Anthar Thebess
#743 - 2014-08-01 09:53:29 UTC
Sentry drones are in overall broken weapon system.
I think sentry drone itself should be nerfed, and ships that are meant to use them should get just bigger bonuses.
Rattlesnake is good example how this can be done.
Reduce dps on all sentry by half , and at the same time give grater bonuses to ships meant using them.
On some make it 2x , to keep their current DPS : dominix/ rattlesnake
On other make it 1.5x ishtar for example.

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#744 - 2014-08-01 09:57:49 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It's been mentioned before and is worth mentioning again: remove sentry drones from all classes but battleships and higher.



That is lazy work.

If some one wants to use all their 25m to get a sentry droen so he can shot at a pos faster. Let him do it.

Artificial magical limitations are not good game design.

Sentries problems are simple. They are the long range counterparts for drones. But they do not have the same drawbacks as other long range systems.

They must track as badly as 1400mm, 425mm rails etc.... THEN no one will deploy them to fight someone at 20 km.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#745 - 2014-08-01 09:59:07 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Zappity wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass.

Why? Can you please be clearer about this? The overwhelming feedback in this thread was very clear: people are sick of 'Ishtars online' and want a change. Why not reduce the bandwidth?



because someof the last ships they nerfed explicitly simply disappeared from eve, like rupture (nerfed when compared to the other cruisers larger buffs) sttaber fleet issues (same thing) etc...

So what? All the people who previously flee Drakes (or whatever) are now flying a wide range of other ships. Diversity is good. And Gallente Cruiser V is plenty powerful enough even without Ishtar dominance.



Diversity is good .. ok and how making a shipdisapear is good? I am glad you are not making decisiosn for game balance. A good game balance is when the OP ship usage is reduced but does not disapear because it keep a niche where it is relevant.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#746 - 2014-08-01 10:07:11 UTC
Or they could just fix people instead?

Remove killmails from the game and replace them with the ones we had before the madness started.

Half of EVE is fixed now!


You're welcome

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2014-08-01 10:12:34 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
It's been mentioned before and is worth mentioning again: remove sentry drones from all classes but battleships and higher.



That is lazy work.

If some one wants to use all their 25m to get a sentry droen so he can shot at a pos faster. Let him do it.

Artificial magical limitations are not good game design.

Sentries problems are simple. They are the long range counterparts for drones. But they do not have the same drawbacks as other long range systems.

They must track as badly as 1400mm, 425mm rails etc.... THEN no one will deploy them to fight someone at 20 km.


To make all sentries track as wardens (0.012 , lower than 425 and tachs) is centainly an interesting idea, however one would expect some tweaking of range and damage.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#748 - 2014-08-01 10:14:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sentries problems are simple. They are the long range counterparts for drones. But they do not have the same drawbacks as other long range systems.

They must track as badly as 1400mm, 425mm rails etc.... THEN no one will deploy them to fight someone at 20 km.


Gardes are the counter part to Blasters, Curators for Mega Pulse Laser, Bouncer for 800mm Autos and Wardens for 425 mm guns. Only Warden are real long range weapon analogs. So, unless you want to make all Sentries long range analogs and introduces a short range sentry variation (or the other way around), your suggestion is not feasible.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#749 - 2014-08-01 10:23:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


8 4 7 sound very limited unless you give it the 7th turret high, else it will just become yet another attempt to make it viable next to a mega, yet fails again. Especially 4 mids disqualify this ship for a intended usage as solo/small scale, as the Hyperion already shows how to be better simply by having superior dronebay, superior hull boni (10% against two 5% for the pest), superior 5 mids.

Keeping the current bonus on the hull itself, there will be one single way to deal with the pest: give it one more slot, as drone ships lose one, the pest could use one well.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#750 - 2014-08-01 10:27:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sentries problems are simple. They are the long range counterparts for drones. But they do not have the same drawbacks as other long range systems.

They must track as badly as 1400mm, 425mm rails etc.... THEN no one will deploy them to fight someone at 20 km.


Gardes are the counter part to Blasters, Curators for Mega Pulse Laser, Bouncer for 800mm Autos and Wardens for 425 mm guns. Only Warden are real long range weapon analogs. So, unless you want to make all Sentries long range analogs and introduces a short range sentry variation (or the other way around), your suggestion is not feasible.


Are you really comparing 800mm AC's with about 6k optimal to a drone which has 72k optimal on an Ishtar (0.066 tracking vs 0.043 tracking).

If you want to compare something, here's a few numbers on a 1400mm Machariel with 2x Tracking comp with tracking scripts:

3x Gyro II
75.8k optimal, 85.7k falloff
484 DPS
0.0378 tracking

Ishtar with Bouncers and 2x Omni with tracking scripts:

3x DDA II
72.2k roptimal, 48k falloff
620 dps
0.0433 tracking

If you want to compare weapon systems, compare systems with same projection.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#751 - 2014-08-01 10:43:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Sara Tosa wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Adjust drone sizes and bandwidth:
- small 5 m3 /mb
- medium 10m3 /mb
- heavy 20m3 /mb
- sentry 25m3 /mb

Adjust Isthar to have only 100 mb..

you're forgetting the rattlesnake, this way it would be able to add two small or a medium to its ultrabonused two heavy.
also there's geko to consider, if you reduce their bandwidth to 40 ships with 125 would be able to launch 3 (carriers 9...), if you dont it would be a nerf.

No it will not be able , as it can use only 2 drones.

rattler has 50m3 bandwidth
can you math 50-(2*20)=
I find the result 10, so 2*5 light or 1*10 medium.
your math works differently?

Quote:

On the other hand.
All ships having 100 Mb could deploy 5 heavy drones , but only 4 sentry drones.

This could be the thing that will make people using heavy drones again.

why nerf bs? sentryes are a bs weapon, I concour that they are too much for cruisers but bs are already in a bad spot by themselves, dont need another nerf.
carrier instead still get 375m3 bandwidth so they would still get 15 sentries, unaffected by your nerf.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#752 - 2014-08-01 10:47:13 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Sentries problems are simple. They are the long range counterparts for drones. But they do not have the same drawbacks as other long range systems.

They must track as badly as 1400mm, 425mm rails etc.... THEN no one will deploy them to fight someone at 20 km.


Gardes are the counter part to Blasters, Curators for Mega Pulse Laser, Bouncer for 800mm Autos and Wardens for 425 mm guns. Only Warden are real long range weapon analogs. So, unless you want to make all Sentries long range analogs and introduces a short range sentry variation (or the other way around), your suggestion is not feasible.



Are you trollign or you are really bad at math? The bouncer and gardes have SEVERAL TIMES more range than these weaposn you THINK are their coutnerparts.

Surprise they are exactly the Sentry drones overused...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#753 - 2014-08-01 10:47:18 UTC
jiujitsutou wrote:
Finaly the Tempest: Making the Tempest a Armor tanker (8/4/7) would be quiet sad as minmatar would only have the slow and clumsy mael around for shield dutys. I dont think the slotlayout is the problem , its more factor like speed and agility and max dps that make phoons or other bs more desirable. The only plus it really has are the 2 utility slots.

+1
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#754 - 2014-08-01 10:50:31 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


8 4 7 sound very limited unless you give it the 7th turret high, else it will just become yet another attempt to make it viable next to a mega, yet fails again. Especially 4 mids disqualify this ship for a intended usage as solo/small scale, as the Hyperion already shows how to be better simply by having superior dronebay, superior hull boni (10% against two 5% for the pest), superior 5 mids.

Keeping the current bonus on the hull itself, there will be one single way to deal with the pest: give it one more slot, as drone ships lose one, the pest could use one well.



Or just give tempest the hyperion treatment. Make one of the bonus an increased bonus. Make the damage bonus on temepst be 7.5% per level and keep the current rof bonus.


Tempest will NOT become very pwoerful but will not have a pathetic dps.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#755 - 2014-08-01 10:54:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Personally I find it a bit of an anomaly that a cruiser can field 5x 25mb drones.

What I find even more of an anomaly is that ships like the Ishtar can field 375mb of drones in the bay, when only the most specialised drone battleships can field this, so why can an Ishtar? Hell even the EOS can only field 250mb bandwidth.

And then you have the dedicated drone battlecruisers which are even stranger, as they can reach a maximum of 100mb bandwidth on the myrmidon, and 75mb on the prophecy. Yet a cruiser blows them out the water.

So basically the Ishtar is an anomaly, and also to some extent the Vexor Navy.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#756 - 2014-08-01 10:57:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Or just give tempest the hyperion treatment. Make one of the bonus an increased bonus. Make the damage bonus on temepst be 7.5% per level and keep the current rof bonus.

I'd agree, although I would like to see the agility and speed increased further if possible, along with increasing the lock range so it has plenty of range to work with when MJDing.
Gaijin Lanis
Gallente Federation
#757 - 2014-08-01 12:17:53 UTC
How to fix the Ishtar:

Remove security status restriction on bombs and interdiction. Make it so bombs and interdiction can't be activated on grid with a gate or station.

The above was written and posted with nothing but love in my heart for all.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#758 - 2014-08-01 12:19:07 UTC
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
How to fix the Ishtar:

Remove security status restriction on bombs and interdiction. Make it so bombs and interdiction can't be activated on grid with a gate or station.

and this would fix ishtars roamers in null, right.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#759 - 2014-08-01 12:23:38 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:
Gaijin Lanis wrote:
How to fix the Ishtar:

Remove security status restriction on bombs and interdiction. Make it so bombs and interdiction can't be activated on grid with a gate or station.

and this would fix ishtars roamers in null, right.


Well, increasing pvp aoe damage to the sentrys would certainly be a more traditional solution.
Lin Fatale
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#760 - 2014-08-01 12:24:30 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Personally I find it a bit of an anomaly that a cruiser can field 5x 25mb drones.

What I find even more of an anomaly is that ships like the Ishtar can field 375mb of drones in the bay.


I also find it a bit of an anomaly that turret ships have ammunition in their cargo to reload or change dmg/range type.
they should live with what they have in the guns when they undock