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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#641 - 2014-07-31 11:03:32 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
@Diivil I wasn't referring to fleet battles.

I'm thinking small gang and nano batleships - start cranking those EHPs up by what was suggested....50%?

Dunno about you, but I suspect people would trade tank slots for things like webs etc, thus keeping todays EHP but being able to smash most small gang resistance.

A nanophoon with webs/painters and RHML, for example. Or a mega similarly (blaster) fit. You HAVE to scram them because of MJD possibility, which means you're likely in web range, which means you're about to melt really fast.

It'd be just like giving them free slots, to my mind.

It would work for some ships, but not others which is why I said it must be done carefully.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#642 - 2014-07-31 11:12:18 UTC
Diivil wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Need to be very careful with blanket battleship buffs. Whilst almost all are worthless outside of (as stated) high sec/epic fleet battles, there are a couple that would start to become nigh unstoppable with the right combination of buffs in the small arena.


Edit: Something perhaps to consider is making the weapon bonuses cascade down the stack - much like how the rattlesnake has bonuses to all missiles.

So bonus battleships in weapon types, unlimited to sizes. So if people really wanted the worlds fattest destroyer, they could make one.


As stated before most t1 battleships are not in a bad place compared to each other. The problem is that bombers make all shield BS unuseable. And then tidi and firewalling make all the missile ones unuseable at any scale of over 200vs200. You have about a minute to broadcast for reps and if the reps are running before missiles land then you are not dying. On top of this ECM is currently useless due to absolutely massive sensor strength buffs to all ships across the board making the Scorpion unuseable.

So while you can say that t1 BS are not in a bad place compared each other in reality they are in a really bad place because of outside factors. Out of all t1 BS only 3 are actually worth using as the main line ship in large fleet battles: Apoc, Domi and Mega. Armageddon is not bad but it doesn't work as a main line ship. Abaddon is not horrible but generally we see Apocs used over it.

In my opinion t1 BS don't need buffs except in special cases of Scorpion, Hyperion and possibly Tempest. It's that the things that make them bad need to be nerfed: bombs, sensor strengths, super easy firewalling and strength of remote repairs. All these things cause massive problems to many ship classes as well so nerfing them shouldn't be a problem.



The hyperion is the most powerful battleship in eve. Just hat it was made super focused to a specific scenario or very very small gangs (2-3 people)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#643 - 2014-07-31 11:13:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

You guys are still operating under the premise that you have a lot of time to address these rebalance issues. You don't - you're on borrowed time. Unless you start taking some risks and introduce some new content, EVE is going to creep past the point of no return with respect to subscriber losses.


*sigh*, I'll bite I suppose.

New content like what, Arthur?



have to agree. CCP is still adding new content as the mordus ships. Sure they could very well work on creating more PVE content that is challenging.. but that is all ...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#644 - 2014-07-31 11:25:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alghara
Hi CCP Rise

It's a time to nerf the sentry but i believe it's not the right way to do.

The best way for me, it's put a range control on the sentry (example 10 km).

If you are under 10 km you have the control on you sentry, when you are more than 10 km, you don't have.

That will be better because now the power of the ishtar sentry will be speed tracking and dps. Your decrease only the tracking and range. You have still the posibility in your fleet to add more ship with target painter or web to have the some dps.

But if you put the range control on the sentry, you can't fly away with your ishtar fleet.

also it's better because the modification will effectif on all ship with sentry. (not very efficient on carrier but efficient on command ship and dominix etc).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#645 - 2014-07-31 11:27:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

You guys are still operating under the premise that you have a lot of time to address these rebalance issues. You don't - you're on borrowed time. Unless you start taking some risks and introduce some new content, EVE is going to creep past the point of no return with respect to subscriber losses.


*sigh*, I'll bite I suppose.

New content like what, Arthur?



have to agree. CCP is still adding new content as the mordus ships. Sure they could very well work on creating more PVE content that is challenging.. but that is all ...


Yeah, that's about the answer I expected. Most of the time when people say that, what they really mean is "moar missions!".

And if you ask me, there are portions of the game that need the attention more. POS, SOV, (super)capital balance, fixing the most recent bugs (seriously, I don't like to complain, but the Drone Avionics one is super annoying), and other such things.

Dev time is not infinite, when you say that one thing should be a priority you are quite literally saying that some other things should fall by the wayside. And CCP learned in Incarna that ignoring the basic systems of the game is something they should not be doing.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#646 - 2014-07-31 11:52:05 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Corben Arctus wrote:
Like some people here already mentioned, please take another good look at the Minmatar HACs.

The Vagabond is kinda meh nowadays, bordering on irrelevant.

The Muninn is pretty much completely irrelevant where I live. It's a ship that can only be used if you have a group of 20 people flying it, alpha'ing smaller stuff.

I don't fly either, but enough have commented that they're both the equivalent of "suck lite" - so yeah, why not.


Yes, when compared to the impressive Ishtar, can they, actually all HACs, get:
Omnidamage types.
Closeup brawling.
Long range sniping.
Battleship+ DPS at range and closeup.
Shield or armour - and a good tank for either.
Capless weapons.
Instant damage switching.
Ewar proof damage application.
Massive fitting for the weapon they get hung with.

This is one ship that simply gets everything that every other HAC gets. There is no point using anything else. The proposed 'small change' is like offering a new skin to all the other HACs. Utter crap. I would accept my pulses being destroyable, if I could just dump the thing and switch to another in my 'laserhold' instantly.

Its amazing the CCP cannot see this.

As noted before, they beat nearly every ship in game for PVE, PVP and POS Bashing (ignoring Caps, POSes ignore drones). The standard fleet is now an ishtar fleet, the standard response is a typical 'non fight' - totally depressing.

Fixes for short order:

  • Sentry switching should be like an ammo reload, abandoning and deploying should take time.
  • Cut the number of sentries deployable, or cut the 'sentryhold' to hold a LOT less.
  • Make sentries use Cap (insane).
  • Make POSes attack drones - the bloody things ARE shooting it.
  • Rebalance the Ishtar to be armour only. or shield only, give it a ****** grid / CPU like the Munnin - 3 mids and lows to get tank and damage.
  • TEST THE THING before changing it - imagine you actually have testers!


The destroyable drone thing is bordering on an insult to my intelligence, they can store and field enough to stay in a fight, and yet they are cheap enough to abandon.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#647 - 2014-07-31 11:58:56 UTC
you guys really make fozzie and rise look less bad.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#648 - 2014-07-31 12:00:19 UTC
Corben Arctus wrote:
I don't care about battleships; and the Ishtar nerf... well it doesn't do much. But thanks for not destroying it right away, maybe something good will come from this mini-expansion model after all.

Like some people here already mentioned, please take another good look at the Minmatar HACs.

The Vagabond is kinda meh nowadays, bordering on irrelevant.

The Muninn is pretty much completely irrelevant where I live. It's a ship that can only be used if you have a group of 20 people flying it, alpha'ing smaller stuff.

I've seen people solo'ing whole fleets in Ishtars; I've seen small gangs of Cerberus' annihilate other gangs.

Please Rise, Fozzie; do something about Muninns (and give Vagabonds some love too).


Coming from Sleeper ISBoxer Club, I'm amazed your corp (20% of which is Versimilidude01 to XX) didn't throw the toys from the cot. Of course it's not so bad. it means you guys can ISBox your C5 sites without actually dying.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#649 - 2014-07-31 12:23:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Yeah, that's about the answer I expected. Most of the time when people say that, what they really mean is "moar missions!".

And if you ask me, there are portions of the game that need the attention more. POS, SOV, (super)capital balance, fixing the most recent bugs (seriously, I don't like to complain, but the Drone Avionics one is super annoying), and other such things.

Dev time is not infinite, when you say that one thing should be a priority you are quite literally saying that some other things should fall by the wayside. And CCP learned in Incarna that ignoring the basic systems of the game is something they should not be doing.



I am not defendign him.. I am just translating him. Also missiosn do not need much developer time, just game designer time. So to expect some 4 missiosn per semester would be acceptable demand...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tyburn Stannis
Xenon Salvage Inc.
#650 - 2014-07-31 12:33:24 UTC
Quick vote for some drone space on the Eagle please - just 10m3 for a couple of salvage robo-minions would be perfect :)

o/
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#651 - 2014-07-31 12:41:22 UTC
Tyburn Stannis wrote:
Quick vote for some drone space on the Eagle please - just 10m3 for a couple of salvage robo-minions would be perfect :)

o/


nah 20mb is needed .. a good 220m/s and increase the damage bonus too 7.5% .. then it would be worth flying as blasterboat

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Corben Arctus
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#652 - 2014-07-31 12:44:22 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Corben Arctus wrote:
I don't care about battleships; and the Ishtar nerf... well it doesn't do much. But thanks for not destroying it right away, maybe something good will come from this mini-expansion model after all.

Like some people here already mentioned, please take another good look at the Minmatar HACs.

The Vagabond is kinda meh nowadays, bordering on irrelevant.

The Muninn is pretty much completely irrelevant where I live. It's a ship that can only be used if you have a group of 20 people flying it, alpha'ing smaller stuff.

I've seen people solo'ing whole fleets in Ishtars; I've seen small gangs of Cerberus' annihilate other gangs.

Please Rise, Fozzie; do something about Muninns (and give Vagabonds some love too).


Coming from Sleeper ISBoxer Club, I'm amazed your corp (20% of which is Versimilidude01 to XX) didn't throw the toys from the cot. Of course it's not so bad. it means you guys can ISBox your C5 sites without actually dying.


I want to ISBox 20 Muninns some day. Very Smiley Dude is a great man, and an inspiration to us all.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#653 - 2014-07-31 13:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I love these threads by Rise and Fozzie. They come up with some poor idea and ask for feedback and then ignore everyone and implement the bad ideas anyway... See the Nestor Roll

I don't mean to be insulting but you guys need to realise that you have the most important job at CCP right now, and this rock-paper-scissors approach to balance will hurting the game in the long run. Take a long look at battleships and ask yourself why the biggest and most fearsome class of sub caps is becoming completely irrelevant and you may get a better grasp on how all ships in the game should be balanced.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Ray Kyonhe
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#654 - 2014-07-31 13:11:27 UTC
Darth Fett wrote:
CCP Rise
Sentries/heavy drones is large size weapon. dps*optimal of ishtars is 500% more that others HACs, this nerf reduce it to OMG only 450%.
Cruisers must not have ability to use L weapons - so max 50 bandwidth to all cruisers and only medium drones bonus.

[Proposal]Ability to +1 someone more than one time.[/Proposal]

Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#655 - 2014-07-31 13:15:32 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Yeah, that's about the answer I expected. Most of the time when people say that, what they really mean is "moar missions!".

And if you ask me, there are portions of the game that need the attention more. POS, SOV, (super)capital balance, fixing the most recent bugs (seriously, I don't like to complain, but the Drone Avionics one is super annoying), and other such things.

Dev time is not infinite, when you say that one thing should be a priority you are quite literally saying that some other things should fall by the wayside. And CCP learned in Incarna that ignoring the basic systems of the game is something they should not be doing.



I am not defendign him.. I am just translating him. Also missiosn do not need much developer time, just game designer time. So to expect some 4 missiosn per semester would be acceptable demand...


Honestly, if they're going to do that, I would rather they put in some time to make a bunch of them procedurally generated with a bunch of random characteristics. That way it's at least not the same, math hammered out crap.

But just adding new ones? That doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seolfor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#656 - 2014-07-31 13:26:32 UTC
Scythe Fleet treatment for Munnin - DOOO EEETT!!
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#657 - 2014-07-31 14:17:07 UTC
"Interesting" PvE content is nearly impossible in Eve, for a number of reasons.

First, all potential Eve PvE content is either easy or impossible. If the number of players is not limited, it will be zerged until the mechanics are figured out, because nobody wants to risk ship loss if they don't have to. No challenge at any point. If the number of players is limited, and it's balanced around T2 modules, it will be trivialized by people going in with deadspace stuff, Marauders, and possibly assigned fighters. If it's balanced around all that stuff, it's now impossible because noone can afford to lose a dozen deadspace-fitted Marauders while figuring out how to win.

Second, the nature of Eve is to always provide a risk of PvP, and this is anathema to interesting PvE. Hard PvE content either means you can uncounterably and cheaply grief a group of players forever with a half-dozen suicide Blackbirds, and if the Blackbirds can't get into the PvE area then you've now created a zone safe from PvP.
unslaught
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#658 - 2014-07-31 14:17:50 UTC
the ishtar is NOT op, the other hacs are to just to weak. it's a HEAVY assault cruiser, it's supposed to be a baby bs. all these nerfs are beginning to become annoying. just make the others so they match up to the ishtar.

give the ishtar a heavy drone based setup:

1) lose the 5km per lvl drone control range
2) lose the optimal range for sentries, just tracking will do imo (and still 7.5%)
3) give the ishtar some resist or armor rep bonus, making it a brawler - again push people towards heavy drone use.
4) don't change the slot layout, it's very good for a heavy drone brawler. mids for either drone mods, tackle, cap and propulsion
5) lose the turret slots - again make it heavy drone based.
6) only give it like 2 high slots (neuts), again to discourage people from using sentries because of no slots for drone range aug.

so something like this

gallente cruiser bonus: 7.5% tracking speed to all drones, 5% to armor rep amount
hac skill: 7.5% heavy drone speed, 10% to drone damage and hitpoints

something like this...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#659 - 2014-07-31 14:18:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Yeah, that's about the answer I expected. Most of the time when people say that, what they really mean is "moar missions!".

And if you ask me, there are portions of the game that need the attention more. POS, SOV, (super)capital balance, fixing the most recent bugs (seriously, I don't like to complain, but the Drone Avionics one is super annoying), and other such things.

Dev time is not infinite, when you say that one thing should be a priority you are quite literally saying that some other things should fall by the wayside. And CCP learned in Incarna that ignoring the basic systems of the game is something they should not be doing.



I am not defendign him.. I am just translating him. Also missiosn do not need much developer time, just game designer time. So to expect some 4 missiosn per semester would be acceptable demand...


Honestly, if they're going to do that, I would rather they put in some time to make a bunch of them procedurally generated with a bunch of random characteristics. That way it's at least not the same, math hammered out crap.

But just adding new ones? That doesn't solve the problem, it just delays it.


If it was impossible to blitz them or totally doable in a wet paper bag tank WTFPWNMOBILE because there are too many random factor, it would also somehow reduce the income one person can get from it but that's really for another thread.

I'me tired of being able to not sarcastically tell people "when in doubt, Ishtars" when they ask what ship to train toward to be efficient...
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#660 - 2014-07-31 14:20:44 UTC
unslaught wrote:
the ishtar is NOT op, the other hacs are to just to weak. it's a HEAVY assault cruiser, it's supposed to be a baby bs. all these nerfs are beginning to become annoying. just make the others so they match up to the ishtar.

give the ishtar a heavy drone based setup:

1) lose the 5km per lvl drone control range
2) lose the optimal range for sentries, just tracking will do imo (and still 7.5%)
3) give the ishtar some resist or armor rep bonus, making it a brawler - again push people towards heavy drone use.
4) don't change the slot layout, it's very good for a heavy drone brawler. mids for either drone mods, tackle, cap and propulsion
5) lose the turret slots - again make it heavy drone based.
6) only give it like 2 high slots (neuts), again to discourage people from using sentries because of no slots for drone range aug.

so something like this

gallente cruiser bonus: 7.5% tracking speed to all drones, 5% to armor rep amount
hac skill: 7.5% heavy drone speed, 10% to drone damage and hitpoints

something like this...


The abby BS are battlecruiser, not hacs. Pushing the other hacs up insetad of nefing the Ishtar is blatan power creep.