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Refunding skill points in industry

Author
Digital Messiah
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1 - 2014-07-31 03:32:19 UTC
Seeing as the changes to mining and industry are essentially completely game changing numbers wise. Why do we not have the option to refund the skill points invested in them. It is one thing to not do your research and train skills, at least that is avoidable. But when CCP takes the game in a new direction altering that aspect of the game. It isn't exactly foreseeable nor always desirable. With the new changes my isk an hour from mining have gone down tremendously. The time I put in to have what was perfect refining are gone. It is now more profitable with level 4 in all reprocessing ores and refine eff 5 to simply sell the ore even at a station with 0% tax. Null sec has finally won the war on mining in high sec, and you know, they should make more because 0.0 is "dangerous". Depending on where you are or what can happen. But that doesn't mean CCP should have made it that much more profitable to now either get your own station or move to null. Now I can hardly make 20 mill in an hour and a half with perfect orca boosts. Which is insane considering I was making almost 35 million isk an hour before cruis. There is also no reason to ever risk flying a hulk in hi security space. The time it takes to pay off the thing makes it illogical to fly.

I'm sure people will quote other game changes in the past as justification for making people stick out or move on with the new changes. But when you consider I have the equivalent of every learning skill at 5, in mining skill points. And can make more isk an hour blitzing level 3's for SOE, well any corp. Why should the reward be so low for so much time invested? Also I had over 100% refine before the cruis changes. And I know they boosted the mineral reprocessing amounts. But CCP could have at least gave me the option of having what is now perfect instead of forcing me to train 4 months of level 5 industry skills and use an implant slot just to get back to the isk and refine equivalent of before.

I am not disagreeing with CCP's mind set to change industry to improve it in the long run. I just no longer wish to be forced to use a remap and go back to skills that for years were considered perfect for high sec space. Just to see a few more mill an hour return. Or they could have at least done like they did with battle cruisers and let me have equal returns for my skill point investment. Either way I feel the changes are altering enough to merit the option of redirecting my skill points. Also because if I have the option to shoot red boxes or to shoot stationary gray boxes. I will hands down always choose to shoot the more profitable one. Especially when it is now 3-4x the isk an hour.

TL;DR: Mining is not only boring now, but extremely unprofitable, unless you move to null.

Thank you for reading, what is your opinion? Should I adapt or die, or will this almost 7 million skill point deficit be stuck on my character.

Something clever

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2 - 2014-07-31 03:33:57 UTC
You already benefited vastly from your skillpoints. No refunds for something you already used. If the game changes, you adapt. Actually, adapt or die is one of the (unofficial) premises of EVE Online.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#3 - 2014-07-31 03:34:52 UTC
Id ask you for all of your stuff, but it sounds like all you have is useless mining equipment.




Ah to hell with it, Ill take it. Ill expect your contract shortly.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4 - 2014-07-31 03:43:59 UTC
I move that we make a violation of the forum rules to ask for skill refunds.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Digital Messiah
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#5 - 2014-07-31 03:45:39 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
You already benefited vastly from your skillpoints. No refunds for something you already used. If the game changes, you adapt. Actually, adapt or die is one of the (unofficial) premises of EVE Online.


The idea of investing time in this game and having careful planning is that they will pay out for your hard work and cautious nature. What you just described is that I can no longer trust CCP to back an equivalent exchange. It is with in reason to alter a system for the betterment of everyone as a whole. When you then take that idea and apply it in ways of forcing changes that are not accessible to certain individuals. All you end up doing is alienating a large portion of the player base. Before cruis I could tell people that they could make the same isk an hour for skill point investment that they would see from missions. This allowed for variety and healthy diversity in EVE. Now telling someone to pursue mining is the equivalent of telling someone to get into hacking in the same security systems. There is little to no profit for the time put in. And further more you have even less ship classes available to take on lower security space. Considering at least hacking has more and safer ship options.

I do not have the time to commit to running around null sec fighting for space. Nor do I like that play style in eve. I did my time back in 06 - 09 experiencing that portion of the game. CCP has effectively changed the system to much and done so by replacing skills to be less effective than before. In the past when ever this happened with any other portion of the game it was either a necessary balance change or skill points were refunded. Why not now? Especially considered the market has taken years to stabilize to where it was at pre cruis.

Something clever

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2014-07-31 03:46:56 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
TL;DR: Mining is not only boring now, but extremely unprofitable, unless you move to null.

Mining was always boring, crappy profit.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-07-31 03:51:59 UTC
Skill points were only refunded in the case of skills being removed completely. Mining & refining are still in the game, so you're not getting a skillpoint refund.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

malcovas Henderson
THoF
#8 - 2014-07-31 03:56:41 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
Seeing as the changes to mining and industry are essentially completely game changing numbers wise. Why do we not have the option to refund the skill points invested in them. It is one thing to not do your research and train skills, at least that is avoidable. But when CCP takes the game in a new direction altering that aspect of the game. It isn't exactly foreseeable nor always desirable. With the new changes my isk an hour from mining have gone down tremendously. The time I put in to have what was perfect refining are gone. It is now more profitable with level 4 in all reprocessing ores and refine eff 5 to simply sell the ore even at a station with 0% tax. Null sec has finally won the war on mining in high sec, and you know, they should make more because 0.0 is "dangerous". Depending on where you are or what can happen. But that doesn't mean CCP should have made it that much more profitable to now either get your own station or move to null. Now I can hardly make 20 mill in an hour and a half with perfect orca boosts. Which is insane considering I was making almost 35 million isk an hour before cruis. There is also no reason to ever risk flying a hulk in hi security space. The time it takes to pay off the thing makes it illogical to fly.

I'm sure people will quote other game changes in the past as justification for making people stick out or move on with the new changes. But when you consider I have the equivalent of every learning skill at 5, in mining skill points. And can make more isk an hour blitzing level 3's for SOE, well any corp. Why should the reward be so low for so much time invested? Also I had over 100% refine before the cruis changes. And I know they boosted the mineral reprocessing amounts. But CCP could have at least gave me the option of having what is now perfect instead of forcing me to train 4 months of level 5 industry skills and use an implant slot just to get back to the isk and refine equivalent of before.

I am not disagreeing with CCP's mind set to change industry to improve it in the long run. I just no longer wish to be forced to use a remap and go back to skills that for years were considered perfect for high sec space. Just to see a few more mill an hour return. Or they could have at least done like they did with battle cruisers and let me have equal returns for my skill point investment. Either way I feel the changes are altering enough to merit the option of redirecting my skill points. Also because if I have the option to shoot red boxes or to shoot stationary gray boxes. I will hands down always choose to shoot the more profitable one. Especially when it is now 3-4x the isk an hour.

TL;DR: Mining is not only boring now, but extremely unprofitable, unless you move to null.

Thank you for reading, what is your opinion? Should I adapt or die, or will this almost 7 million skill point deficit be stuck on my character.


you talk utter shite. I mine with full orca boosts and make 25-30mill an hour. In Hi sec.

Going on a tangent. If you are playing EVE to make as much isk per hour, all the time you are online. you're doing it wrong.
Zero Sum Gain
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDOOOOOOOOM
#9 - 2014-07-31 04:02:46 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
[quote=Abrazzar] What you just described is that I can no longer trust CCP .


Another cardinal sin of eve, you trusted someone. I fully expect CCP executives to empty all the accounts they can one day and flee the country.
Digital Messiah
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#10 - 2014-07-31 04:17:33 UTC
This community like almost all others has become so toxic. No one will take a look at how changes effect balance in the game. So far the only thing any one has said is can I have your stuff, and adapt or die. Looking back I now don't see why I spent countless hours trying to convince CCP to balance systems such as drones or hybrids. The work I put into spreadsheets and balance discussions mean nothing today. Perhaps I have bitter vet syndrome or maybe I just don't like seeing the league of legends community get likes because the only thing that is considered cool and enjoyable is being negative on the forum or forced pvp on players. Anyways cruis was to game changing and maybe eve will struggle on. But you guys are right I am leaving. Watching its birth in 03 to the new player hating community in 14 is saddening. Thanks for the 11 years CCP. No you can not have my things, you will just let them sit in hanger while you troll general discussion for likes from people you don't know so you can impress other people who don't know or care who you are.

To James 315 who just ganked me in under 15 seconds in high security space. You are part of the problem. And killing me for having an opinion is childish. Even more so is the griefing which you continue to call fair and balanced play. Enjoy moving to 0.0 guys, im sure helping to pay someones mortgage and the on going and never resolved issue of RMT is going to be fun. Watching SWG die the same fate and knowing the people who did only play for irl funds. I can see EVE heading down the same path.

Congratulations btw on removing someone who has helped countless new players and strived to make the game better finally give up. Enjoy throwing sand.

Something clever

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#11 - 2014-07-31 04:23:28 UTC
Obligatory can I have your stuff.
As for the rest of it, your skills do exactly what they did before in almost every single case. And that one case the Devs have provided a very clear explanation of why they will not refund your skill points.
You are asking for a massive 7 million SP refund just because the meta game has been shaken up. Industry is still the same as it always was in terms of skills.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-07-31 04:34:03 UTC
Digital Messiah wrote:
This community like almost all others has become so toxic. No one will take a look at how changes effect balance in the game. So far the only thing any one has said is can I have your stuff, and adapt or die. Looking back I now don't see why I spent countless hours trying to convince CCP to balance systems such as drones or hybrids. The work I put into spreadsheets and balance discussions mean nothing today. Perhaps I have bitter vet syndrome or maybe I just don't like seeing the league of legends community get likes because the only thing that is considered cool and enjoyable is being negative on the forum or forced pvp on players. Anyways cruis was to game changing and maybe eve will struggle on. But you guys are right I am leaving. Watching its birth in 03 to the new player hating community in 14 is saddening. Thanks for the 11 years CCP. No you can not have my things, you will just let them sit in hanger while you troll general discussion for likes from people you don't know so you can impress other people who don't know or care who you are.

To James 315 who just ganked me in under 15 seconds in high security space. You are part of the problem. And killing me for having an opinion is childish. Even more so is the griefing which you continue to call fair and balanced play. Enjoy moving to 0.0 guys, im sure helping to pay someones mortgage and the on going and never resolved issue of RMT is going to be fun. Watching SWG die the same fate and knowing the people who did only play for irl funds. I can see EVE heading down the same path.

Congratulations btw on removing someone who has helped countless new players and strived to make the game better finally give up. Enjoy throwing sand.


TL;DR - I'm quitting because my spreadsheets are worthless now & a big meanie ganked me. Also something about the Dinsdale nullsec RMT cartel bandwagon.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#13 - 2014-07-31 04:35:59 UTC
The null sec cartel's completely control CCP, and Eve.
Their well-documented goal is to destroy high sec, of which mining was (pre-Crius), still a marginally a profitable occupation, if you did not mind the cartel funded griefers like CODE.

Now, it is garbage, like most other things in high sec. (BTW, level 4's and Incursions are targeted, since they are the only semi-profitable things left in high sec left).

So why the shock?

Much of the player base has already recognized this (note the ACU and PCU), and demonstrated their opinion with their wallets.
Naturally, the propagandists will be out in full force to outshout and even censor this truth in minutes. But even after they get this post removed, the truth will remain: the amount of people willing to put up with this is dwindling, and CCP is in deep trouble, whether they recognize it or not.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#14 - 2014-07-31 04:38:13 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Digital Messiah wrote:
This community like almost all others has become so toxic. No one will take a look at how changes effect balance in the game. So far the only thing any one has said is can I have your stuff, and adapt or die. Looking back I now don't see why I spent countless hours trying to convince CCP to balance systems such as drones or hybrids. The work I put into spreadsheets and balance discussions mean nothing today. Perhaps I have bitter vet syndrome or maybe I just don't like seeing the league of legends community get likes because the only thing that is considered cool and enjoyable is being negative on the forum or forced pvp on players. Anyways cruis was to game changing and maybe eve will struggle on. But you guys are right I am leaving. Watching its birth in 03 to the new player hating community in 14 is saddening. Thanks for the 11 years CCP. No you can not have my things, you will just let them sit in hanger while you troll general discussion for likes from people you don't know so you can impress other people who don't know or care who you are.

To James 315 who just ganked me in under 15 seconds in high security space. You are part of the problem. And killing me for having an opinion is childish. Even more so is the griefing which you continue to call fair and balanced play. Enjoy moving to 0.0 guys, im sure helping to pay someones mortgage and the on going and never resolved issue of RMT is going to be fun. Watching SWG die the same fate and knowing the people who did only play for irl funds. I can see EVE heading down the same path.

Congratulations btw on removing someone who has helped countless new players and strived to make the game better finally give up. Enjoy throwing sand.


TL;DR - I'm quitting because my spreadsheets are worthless now & a big meanie ganked me. Also something about the Dinsdale nullsec RMT cartel bandwagon.


BTW, thanks for invoking my name in a thread I had not even posted in. You guys clearly have as much fixation with me as I do with fighting you.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#15 - 2014-07-31 04:48:11 UTC
Everyone has had this happen at some point.

How about my standings and how they will not be making me isk now that everyone can put up POS in high sec?
Years of spiraling up standings in the trash.
What about all those who ran with interbus to do it and never go LP for it because the standings were valuble?

What about the Max SP toon I had to trash and the 500 mil in implants because the extra remap to new toons showed up 30 days after I started it?

How about the changes to the entire ship line I specilaized in?

What about how I trained advanced learning skills and when the removed them my SP per hour went down?

That's not even my entire personal list.
See the point. I have said and will repeat again. If you plan more than one year out in Eve bring the lube.

Everyone gets screwed by changes at some point. You chose to cry about it to a community that is use to it.
Do you really expect them to act all sorry for you when they have probly taken on the chin way worse than your minor issue?

Your tears fuel us so thanks for the post.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-07-31 05:01:04 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
BTW, thanks for invoking my name in a thread I had not even posted in. You guys clearly have as much fixation with me as I do with fighting you.


Don't thank me, thank the OP for stealing your tinfoil obsession & going on a tangent about nullsec RMT.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-07-31 05:04:48 UTC
I wouldn't really go so far as to say you're an obsession, you're more like Photoshop Phriday; Something I look at once a month for a laugh.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#18 - 2014-07-31 05:06:33 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

BTW, thanks for invoking my name in a thread I had not even posted in. You guys clearly have as much fixation with me as I do with fighting you.


That, or you just have that rep. My parents know who you are, Dinsdale.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#19 - 2014-07-31 05:10:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

BTW, thanks for invoking my name in a thread I had not even posted in. You guys clearly have as much fixation with me as I do with fighting you.


That, or you just have that rep. My parents know who you are, Dinsdale.


Really, in Real Life?
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#20 - 2014-07-31 05:20:13 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Everyone has had this happen at some point.

How about my standings and how they will not be making me isk now that everyone can put up POS in high sec?
Years of spiraling up standings in the trash.
What about all those who ran with interbus to do it and never go LP for it because the standings were valuble?

What about the Max SP toon I had to trash and the 500 mil in implants because the extra remap to new toons showed up 30 days after I started it?

How about the changes to the entire ship line I specilaized in?

What about how I trained advanced learning skills and when the removed them my SP per hour went down?

That's not even my entire personal list.
See the point. I have said and will repeat again. If you plan more than one year out in Eve bring the lube.

Everyone gets screwed by changes at some point. You chose to cry about it to a community that is use to it.
Do you really expect them to act all sorry for you when they have probly taken on the chin way worse than your minor issue?

Your tears fuel us so thanks for the post.


This is a healthy attitude. Some others have unhealthy attitudes. I'd pay real life money for a copy of Dinsdale's blood pressure charts .
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