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Crius Feedback

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Author
Galmalmin
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#201 - 2014-07-23 01:35:09 UTC
Did I miss, in my lackadaisical reading of these Cirus changes, that I am being charged a TAX at the POS?

I purchased, I transported, I installed, I keep fueled, I purchased modules for, I collect minerals for, I purchase BPO's for, I research BPO's and when I do a production run at that POS, I am charged a TAX? Am I reading that TOTAL JOB COST correctly... that I have to pay unknown entity to run that job?

Galmalmin
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#202 - 2014-07-23 01:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
So far, without engaging in actual industry and only by browsing through the Industry window, I can say the following:


  • Whatever purpose you have envisioned for "System cost index" parameter is now down the drain, since it's uniform at 100% for about 95% of the systems on all industrial categories (manufacturing, ME research, ...);
  • There is no option to sort facilities by Total job cost, so your "cost scaling" philosophy ends up at the same place as "System cost index" (see above). I know that you have added a lot of industry into CREST for this release, but you simply can not expect players to do all the actual programming work for you in order to find the single most useful information when deciding what and where to build;
  • You once again repeated the same mistake as when T2 BPO lotteries were removed from the game - those who had researched BPOs, especially capital ones, before Crius researched at high enough levels now benefit tremendously compared to the currently implemented system. Example:
  • - Thanatos BPO ME: 3 PE: 1 pre-Crius converts to ME: -8% PE: - 10% in Crius;
    - ME research time to the next level now requires a bit more than 108 days, while previously it was at 47 days (same character, same implants, same skills). That's 229% increase in time Question;
    - ME research "Total job cost" for one additional ME level varies from 400 million to 1.1 billion ISK Question. The NPC value of the BPO is 1.1 bil ISK. Incarna NeX store prices are zombified in form of industry costsAttention
    Basically, you gave "a finger" to anyone who is foolish enough to think that he can jump into industry now and be competitive compared to players who already did industry before. I really, really hoped that you would learn from T2 BPO mistakes, but obviously you haven't. Good luck attracting new players to industry and all of the threads about T2 BPOs repeated again with normal BPOs.
  • The amount of teams available for anything but manufacturing is extremely low on the "World" level (including Team Chartering" menu). I really hope that more teams would be seeded as the time passes (as stated in the devblogs) but at the moment, for many various types of blueprints there are between 3 and 10-ish teams seeded for non-manufacturing activities globally. That amount of teams can be and will be easily monopolized;


  • And I'll repeat again what I've said in the SiSi feedback thread: whoever thought of taxing industry jobs at POSes which are already using fuel (and not a cheap amount of it either), should be fired and retired from game development industry altogether. Your talents would be much more useful and utilized in some government, tax office, bank or insurance company.
Galmalmin
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#203 - 2014-07-23 02:06:31 UTC
Galmalmin wrote:
Did I miss, in my lackadaisical reading of these Cirus changes, that I am being charged a TAX at the POS?

I purchased, I transported, I installed, I keep fueled, I purchased modules for, I collect minerals for, I purchase BPO's for, I research BPO's and when I do a production run at that POS, I am charged a TAX? Am I reading that TOTAL JOB COST correctly... that I have to pay unknown entity to run that job?

Galmalmin



I paid tax when I purchased the POS.

I paid tax when I purchased the Charon to haul the POS and Minerals.

I paid tax when I purchase POS fuel.

I paid tax when I purchased POS Modules.

I paid tax when I purchased BPO's.

I pay tax when I refine minerals at a station.

CCP you will be collecting tax when I list the items on the market (agent fees) and you will be collecting tax when the end user purchases the item on the market.

CCP, you need to delete paying tax to run production at the POS.
Fusili Rigatoni
Doomheim
#204 - 2014-07-23 02:11:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Fusili Rigatoni
Galmalmin wrote:


I paid tax when I purchased the POS.

I paid tax when I purchased the Charon to haul the POS and Minerals.

I paid tax when I purchase POS fuel.

I paid tax when I purchased POS Modules.

I paid tax when I purchased BPO's.

I pay tax when I refine minerals at a station.

CCP you will be collecting tax when I list the items on the market (agent fees) and you will be collecting tax when the end user purchases the item on the market.

CCP, you need to delete paying tax to run production at the POS.


It looks like CCP wants to implement a not-so-hidden VAT tax regime. Which, I guess, is one way of making the EVE economy more realistic. Instead of levying a tax just on finished goods, they are assessing a tax at all levels of value-add. IRL, this is a way of squeezing more tax revenue out of the population without having to go back at election time for specific increases, and it's easier to hide tax-increases further up the chain from the consumption point. In the game, I suspect it's a way to head off inflation -- it acts as a stealthy wealth-sink.

EDIT: One other thing, in EVE as in real life, whatever you tax you get less of and whatever you subsidize you get more of. So when you look at EVE's tax regime, keep that in mind.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#205 - 2014-07-23 02:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik
Galmalmin wrote:
Galmalmin wrote:
Did I miss, in my lackadaisical reading of these Cirus changes, that I am being charged a TAX at the POS?

I purchased, I transported, I installed, I keep fueled, I purchased modules for, I collect minerals for, I purchase BPO's for, I research BPO's and when I do a production run at that POS, I am charged a TAX? Am I reading that TOTAL JOB COST correctly... that I have to pay unknown entity to run that job?

Galmalmin



I paid tax when I purchased the POS.

I paid tax when I purchased the Charon to haul the POS and Minerals.

I paid tax when I purchase POS fuel.

I paid tax when I purchased POS Modules.

I paid tax when I purchased BPO's.

I pay tax when I refine minerals at a station.

CCP you will be collecting tax when I list the items on the market (agent fees) and you will be collecting tax when the end user purchases the item on the market.

CCP, you need to delete paying tax to run production at the POS.


Pretty much this.

They really are starting to look more and more like my country.

The fact is - even though I was born and raised in this country, even though all my family is here, even though all of my friends are here - I will be moving next year on the other side of the globe leaving everything behind because of the insane, unclear, dynamically calculated rip-offs of taxing policies.

Guess how valuable "emotional investment" in a game is for me What?

Edit: Just to make things clear. I'm not a whiny type, I haven't ever said that I would quit EVE over something (even something as big as Incarna fiasco, although I have canceled all of my alt accounts at the time to make a point), I haven't ever said that "EVE is dying" and my posts in "Feedback" threads have been positive since Incarna (probably earlier, but I don't remember exactly).
Antoni Vale
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2014-07-23 02:34:37 UTC
Did the Job Cost mockup make it into Crius? Basically a breakdown of the job cost with actual figures and not just a visual system modifier bar.

Image from Dev Blog.. http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66057/1/tooltip_for_pricing_blog.png
Meytal
Doomheim
#207 - 2014-07-23 02:34:44 UTC
DeODokktor wrote:
Meytal wrote:
I like how the math was simplified with the blueprint change of eliminating waste

"Simplified"?... "Eliminated"?

Previously, ME was an abstract value representing waste that had to be converted using a different calculation depending on whether it was positive or negative to determine actual waste:

If ME was negative:
wasteQuantity = ROUND(baseQuantity * (baseWasteFactor + ABS(ME / 10)))

Otherwise, ME was zero or positive:
wasteQuantity = ROUND(basequantity * baseWasteFactor / (1 + ME))

Where baseWasteFactor = 10% (0.10) in most, but not all, cases.

Your final count of materials is: baseQuantity + extraMaterials + wasteQuantity



Now, ME is the direct reduction for material quantities on the blueprint (ie: ME-7% = -0.07). There is no more waste and there are no more extra materials, there is only possible reduction to total materials required.

Your final count of materials is: baseQuantity * (1 + ME)

So yes, the math is simplified and more intuitive.
And yes, waste is eliminated.

DeODokktor wrote:
Meytal wrote:

PS: I still can't make a post about this patch without expressing how silly it is for Sov Nullsec and W-space to pay ISK to some ethereal entity for job installations, and request this be eliminated in those two regions of space.


Logically that seems backwards.
...
I don't think anyone understands how much of a ISK Sink CCP is making here.

It's a huge ISK sink.

Supposedly, you're paying work crews because while you can automate PI facilities, you can't automate manufacturing facilities. That's fine. In Hisec, Lowsec, and NPC Nullsec, an NPC governing entity is in control of the systems under its domain. They theoretically supply the manpower, provide a police force/security, and a slew of other benefits that warrant increased costs.

In W-space especially, there is nothing there except what you bring with you. You pay taxes for produced goods that you import into the system, sure, but you also bring your own populations and your own crews. You can choose to enact whatever payment system you like, be it generously showering them with ISK and other material goods in exchange for glorious productivity, or perhaps whipping them and torturing their children if production falls in the slightest. You don't pay anything to anyone outside your little sphere of influence. In Sov Nullsec, you are the governing entity, with same results as W-space.

CCP wants this to be an ISK sink. That's fine. I still don't have to pretend it makes sense in the situations I described.
I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
#208 - 2014-07-23 02:43:46 UTC
My Feedback... seen the patch was over 1GB, closed the launcher... done with EVE. Just been training skills for months anyway. I would give you my stuff, but I would have to patch the game, but I am too lazy. Have fun, fly safe!
Torg Rann
Tor Industrials
#209 - 2014-07-23 02:46:26 UTC
The UI for ME is ineffective.

If you "Show info" on a BPO you see the base materials for the blueprint without skills or ME applied, OK.

On the left side of the BPO in the UI you should see the materials needed for the blueprint with skills AND ME applied, which of course is not there :(

On the right side of the BPO in the UI you should see the materials needed for the blueprint AFTER the ME change with skills AND ME applied.

Being able to see the output results of the ME change BEFORE running the job OR sitting down with your shiny calculator to guess at what MIGHT happen, would make deciding how far to upgrade a BPO simpler.

Pre Crius my Charon BPO was ME 1. Post Crius my Charon BPO is ME -5%, which uses more materials than it used too :( The current UI does not show me the results for changing the ME to -6% or -7%.

The current UI for ME needs to be enhanced.
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
#210 - 2014-07-23 02:47:02 UTC
Meytal wrote:
DeODokktor wrote:
Meytal wrote:
I like how the math was simplified with the blueprint change of eliminating waste

"Simplified"?... "Eliminated"?

Previously, ME was an abstract value representing waste that had to be converted using a different calculation depending on whether it was positive or negative to determine actual waste:

If ME was negative:
wasteQuantity = ROUND(baseQuantity * (baseWasteFactor + ABS(ME / 10)))

Otherwise, ME was zero or positive:
wasteQuantity = ROUND(basequantity * baseWasteFactor / (1 + ME))

Where baseWasteFactor = 10% (0.10) in most, but not all, cases.

Your final count of materials is: baseQuantity + extraMaterials + wasteQuantity



Now, ME is the direct reduction for material quantities on the blueprint (ie: ME-7% = -0.07). There is no more waste and there are no more extra materials, there is only possible reduction to total materials required.

Your final count of materials is: baseQuantity * (1 + ME)

So yes, the math is simplified and more intuitive.
And yes, waste is eliminated.

DeODokktor wrote:
Meytal wrote:

PS: I still can't make a post about this patch without expressing how silly it is for Sov Nullsec and W-space to pay ISK to some ethereal entity for job installations, and request this be eliminated in those two regions of space.


Logically that seems backwards.
...
I don't think anyone understands how much of a ISK Sink CCP is making here.

It's a huge ISK sink.

Supposedly, you're paying work crews because while you can automate PI facilities, you can't automate manufacturing facilities. That's fine. In Hisec, Lowsec, and NPC Nullsec, an NPC governing entity is in control of the systems under its domain. They theoretically supply the manpower, provide a police force/security, and a slew of other benefits that warrant increased costs.

In W-space especially, there is nothing there except what you bring with you. You pay taxes for produced goods that you import into the system, sure, but you also bring your own populations and your own crews. You can choose to enact whatever payment system you like, be it generously showering them with ISK and other material goods in exchange for glorious productivity, or perhaps whipping them and torturing their children if production falls in the slightest. You don't pay anything to anyone outside your little sphere of influence. In Sov Nullsec, you are the governing entity, with same results as W-space.

CCP wants this to be an ISK sink. That's fine. I still don't have to pretend it makes sense in the situations I described.



I had always assumed that my workers at my POS live in there where i provided the protection and a home for them and in exchange they worked for me
Bubba Abbott
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2014-07-23 04:03:31 UTC
I used to make bpo copies for sale, offlined the pos today.

The BPO I commonly use have had their max copy runs changed from 300 to 40.

3 copies of 300 runs used to take 4 days.
now 3 copies of 40 runs takes 2.25 days and costs 450K isk in a system with no copy capability.

In order to get the same number of runs (900) I need to make ~22 copies which takes something like 16 days and costs ~34M

Borked.




Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#212 - 2014-07-23 04:04:50 UTC
Having not done industry much prior to this and re-researching the teams function - they don't seem like the greatest idea. While I understand the bid system it seems like another mechanic where the already affluent or large corps can control the best teams. It also doesn't seem to add anything incredibly interesting to the interface.

If I didn't want to play the EvE market or contracts, why would I now want to mimic the same function here? Is there an assumption that someone that enjoys dabbling in industry also enjoys the market interface?
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#213 - 2014-07-23 04:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Bienator II
i hoped the new ui would allow this usecase but it still doesn't. I would like to use a corp blueprint out of a corp hangar while using the resources of the members private hangar (and deliver it to the private hangar). Members still have to move stuff around, e.g minerals to the corp hangar or the blueprint to private hangar to start a job.

but i like most of the other changes so far.

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value

Kemptiss
Perkone
Caldari State
#214 - 2014-07-23 05:58:11 UTC
yeah, not digging this patch what so ever. I have a POS that I was able to do research on my blue prints. But oh yeah, I can't do crap now, cause now industry is a corp thing now. Which means I don't have access to a corp wallet, which means I can't do much. So I guess will unsub 3 toons. So hope that cuts down the hourly rate of who came up with horrible idea. So if this is your idea to ramp indy, good job. You wonder why your laying off peeps, cause you guys lost your best people, and now your just forcing garbage down our throats and calling it team super duper. Hope that you guys figure this out sooner than later, hate to see any more down sizing cause you can't figure things out.
Quit Whining
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2014-07-23 06:02:12 UTC
After initial concern I tried test-installing a now ME8 Erebus BPC and thankfully found the number of required parts matched the pre-patch blueprint, just turns out that the show info tab doesn't list materials required with ME/TE applied which is kind of an issue...

Mackenzie Nolen
Doomheim
#216 - 2014-07-23 06:03:26 UTC
Meytal wrote:
In W-space especially, there is nothing there except what you bring with you. You pay taxes for produced goods that you import into the system, sure, but you also bring your own populations and your own crews. You can choose to enact whatever payment system you like, be it generously showering them with ISK and other material goods in exchange for glorious productivity, or perhaps whipping them and torturing their children if production falls in the slightest. You don't pay anything to anyone outside your little sphere of influence. In Sov Nullsec, you are the governing entity, with same results as W-space.

CCP wants this to be an ISK sink. That's fine. I still don't have to pretend it makes sense in the situations I described.


Slavery is not free. Generally speaking, from a historical perspective, it costs just as much to build stuff with slaves as it does to just pay your workers. Slavery is a different work model but not necessarily a cheaper one. So just assume your installation costs are going to feed your slaves and their foremen, pay for security, quell rebellions, buy shock collars, replace the burnouts, suicides, and used up husks of overworked children, etc.

In short, labour costs. It always has and it always will, however you try to do it.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2014-07-23 06:15:14 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
So far, without engaging in actual industry and only by browsing through the Industry window, I can say the following:


  • Whatever purpose you have envisioned for "System cost index" parameter is now down the drain, since it's uniform at 100% for about 95% of the systems on all industrial categories (manufacturing, ME research, ...);

Yeah, this is the part I really don't get. What the hell is the point of a scaling index if very nearly everything is maxed? Clearly this needs to be normalized. I doubt CCP intended it like this otherwise they'd have just set a flat tax.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#218 - 2014-07-23 06:51:03 UTC
Kemptiss wrote:
yeah, not digging this patch what so ever. I have a POS that I was able to do research on my blue prints. But oh yeah, I can't do crap now, cause now industry is a corp thing now. Which means I don't have access to a corp wallet, which means I can't do much. So I guess will unsub 3 toons. So hope that cuts down the hourly rate of who came up with horrible idea. So if this is your idea to ramp indy, good job. You wonder why your laying off peeps, cause you guys lost your best people, and now your just forcing garbage down our throats and calling it team super duper. Hope that you guys figure this out sooner than later, hate to see any more down sizing cause you can't figure things out.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6DEgywU-hM

The Tears Must Flow

Awkward Pi Duolus
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2014-07-23 07:02:09 UTC
Please offer a minimize button for the vast expanse of wasted space above the Team/Jobs section for times when that area has no functional use.

It's highly annoying trying to go through 100s of BPO/Cs 4 at a time..
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#220 - 2014-07-23 07:09:06 UTC
Awkward Pi Duolus wrote:
Please offer a minimize button for the vast expanse of wasted space above the Team/Jobs section for times when that area has no functional use.

It's highly annoying trying to go through 100s of BPO/Cs 4 at a time..


If only there was a filter option....

The Tears Must Flow