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[Crius] Industry Landscape feedback

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Author
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#41 - 2014-06-11 14:05:25 UTC
Rust Connor wrote:
Quick look today. Amazing! A few comments

1) skill
Just checked that Material Efficiency skill didnt change. Any plan for it?

2) install cost
Really like the cost decreasing by number of runs. You should keep that way, without limit.

3) material cost
Love the change to apply ME on total batch. That change alone is amazing. Stimulate long runs and Makes reserch useful even to small rigs. Wish i had a t2 bpo to check if you get a "free hull" on long runs....

1) Yes, there's a plan, it's not done yet
2) It becomes silly for certain items, we're probably going to use 1) to cap it some how
3) No free hulls!

Scarlett LaBlanc wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


No tax at starbases. Nothing stops you spamming moons with towers except for other players :)



I was under the impression that we would have the ability to set the job install tax rate at a POS. Did that not make it in, or was the idea scrapped?

I was really looking forward to bottom up income from industry members.


My understanding is that you can only install corp jobs in a starbase, so you're just taxing yourself, which didn't seem worth the development time.
Arkumord Churhee
Perkone
Caldari State
#42 - 2014-06-11 17:04:51 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- A bonus for multiple starbase structures *is* included: for any job installed in a structure, there is a bonus to the build cost based on how many structures of the same type are currently onlined at the tower; the size of the bonus should be listed in the structure's show info. (Yes, there are "exploits" with offlining structures that we will be looking at further.)


Is this bonus a linear function of the number of modules of that type, or some higher-order scaling?

Did you implement any of the ideas that were thrown out to limit the number of jobs that could benefit from this sort of bonus simultaneously?


Linear, we add them together and then multiply the cost.

No additional fanciness is in place yet.


Hope that means some kind of stacking penalty. Otherwise Highsec is going to be littered with POSes that contain only 1 type of module.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#43 - 2014-06-11 17:22:55 UTC
Arkumord Churhee wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- A bonus for multiple starbase structures *is* included: for any job installed in a structure, there is a bonus to the build cost based on how many structures of the same type are currently onlined at the tower; the size of the bonus should be listed in the structure's show info. (Yes, there are "exploits" with offlining structures that we will be looking at further.)


Is this bonus a linear function of the number of modules of that type, or some higher-order scaling?

Did you implement any of the ideas that were thrown out to limit the number of jobs that could benefit from this sort of bonus simultaneously?


Linear, we add them together and then multiply the cost.

No additional fanciness is in place yet.


Hope that means some kind of stacking penalty. Otherwise Highsec is going to be littered with POSes that contain only 1 type of module.

Is there a problem with that? :)
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#44 - 2014-06-11 17:31:52 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Arkumord Churhee wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- A bonus for multiple starbase structures *is* included: for any job installed in a structure, there is a bonus to the build cost based on how many structures of the same type are currently onlined at the tower; the size of the bonus should be listed in the structure's show info. (Yes, there are "exploits" with offlining structures that we will be looking at further.)


Is this bonus a linear function of the number of modules of that type, or some higher-order scaling?

Did you implement any of the ideas that were thrown out to limit the number of jobs that could benefit from this sort of bonus simultaneously?


Linear, we add them together and then multiply the cost.

No additional fanciness is in place yet.


Hope that means some kind of stacking penalty. Otherwise Highsec is going to be littered with POSes that contain only 1 type of module.

Is there a problem with that? :)


Wasn't there an expectation that elimination of research and manufacturing slots would reduce the number and size of POSes such that the isotope market would crash so badly that a demand increase was required in another area?
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2014-06-11 17:39:21 UTC
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Arkumord Churhee wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

-- A bonus for multiple starbase structures *is* included: for any job installed in a structure, there is a bonus to the build cost based on how many structures of the same type are currently onlined at the tower; the size of the bonus should be listed in the structure's show info. (Yes, there are "exploits" with offlining structures that we will be looking at further.)


Is this bonus a linear function of the number of modules of that type, or some higher-order scaling?

Did you implement any of the ideas that were thrown out to limit the number of jobs that could benefit from this sort of bonus simultaneously?


Linear, we add them together and then multiply the cost.

No additional fanciness is in place yet.


Hope that means some kind of stacking penalty. Otherwise Highsec is going to be littered with POSes that contain only 1 type of module.

Is there a problem with that? :)


Wasn't there an expectation that elimination of research and manufacturing slots would reduce the number and size of POSes such that the isotope market would crash so badly that a demand increase was required in another area?


There are additional considerations playing into that math.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#46 - 2014-06-11 17:54:50 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

There are additional considerations playing into that math.


I look forward to seeing the rest of these considerations ;)
Pic'n dor
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-06-11 18:22:58 UTC
Since POS are removed when mirroring, i have several question :

1 - What will happen to job running remotly on pos lab when Crius will be deployed ?
a - when done, BPO will return to corp hangar or Pos hangar ?
b - jobs will finish ?

2 - Will members will still see in the ui BPC that are in cans that they cannot view or know of in directors restricted level hangar ?

3 - Some of corp BPO disapeared (they were locked down) since the patch on Sisi, they were in progress or ready to deliver but they just vanished.. Can we get them back ? Will that happen with the real patch ?

COUCOU TOUCHE TOUCHE

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2014-06-11 19:48:09 UTC
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

There are additional considerations playing into that math.


I look forward to seeing the rest of these considerations ;)


the amount of ice in highsec is only enough to supply a part of what is needed.

there is still plenty of ice out there in null and low.

go figure out the rest yourself ;)
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#49 - 2014-06-11 20:03:25 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

There are additional considerations playing into that math.


I look forward to seeing the rest of these considerations ;)


the amount of ice in highsec is only enough to supply a part of what is needed.

there is still plenty of ice out there in null and low.

go figure out the rest yourself ;)


I'm hoping for something in development that will make building **** in null more feasible to reduce dependency on jump freight, to be honest.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-06-11 20:17:38 UTC
something along the lines of getting 20% more from refining in nullsec ?

i always hated it when people talked about free minerals, but yeah, those are free because you can't easily sell them in a market hub and have to produce locally.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#51 - 2014-06-11 20:21:32 UTC
Gilbaron wrote:
something along the lines of getting 20% more from refining in nullsec ?

i always hated it when people talked about free minerals, but yeah, those are free because you can't easily sell them in a market hub and have to produce locally.


That helps a hell of a lot, but my concern is around tech 2 stuff. You're lucky if you can build even 1 race's components from local resources. Then you get key components that are smaller than the goo they're made out of and it just gets silly.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#52 - 2014-06-11 21:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Gilbaron wrote:
something along the lines of getting 20% more from refining in nullsec ?

i always hated it when people talked about free minerals, but yeah, those are free because you can't easily sell them in a market hub and have to produce locally.


People like that are the problem of the game. You ARE supposed to use them locally, you always have been. Bringing the majority of that stuff to a market hub like Jita was never the intention and CCP made it quite clear that this attitude has to change. While I am against these massive buffs to 00 sec stations (leveling them with High sec would be more than sufficient), I am very much agree with CCP that as much stuff that you use needs to be produce in the space you call your home, not in some remote corner of the universe by other people. That is what your home is for and has to be used for.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

CCP Nullarbor
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2014-06-11 21:16:13 UTC
Pic'n dor wrote:
1 - What will happen to job running remotly on pos lab when Crius will be deployed ?


They will continue for the amount of time that was originally allocated for that job.

Pic'n dor wrote:
a - when done, BPO will return to corp hangar or Pos hangar ?


The blueprint will return to wherever it came from, be it a remote station or the POS hangar if that is where it was started.

Pic'n dor wrote:
b - jobs will finish ?


After their originally scheduled amount of time, yes.

Pic'n dor wrote:
2 - Will members will still see in the ui BPC that are in cans that they cannot view or know of in directors restricted level hangar ?


They should only be seeing blueprints that they can normally see through the inventory, based on roles. (Let me know if you find a case where that isn't true)

Pic'n dor wrote:
3 - Some of corp BPO disapeared (they were locked down) since the patch on Sisi, they were in progress or ready to deliver but they just vanished.. Can we get them back ? Will that happen with the real patch ?


That's because we trim POSes and old jobs when we do the Singularity mirror. That won't happen on TQ.

CCP Nullarbor // Senior Engineer // Team Game of Drones

Circumstantial Evidence
#54 - 2014-06-11 21:51:20 UTC
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
something along the lines of getting 20% more from refining in nullsec ?

i always hated it when people talked about free minerals, but yeah, those are free because you can't easily sell them in a market hub and have to produce locally.
That helps a hell of a lot, but my concern is around tech 2 stuff. You're lucky if you can build even 1 race's components from local resources. Then you get key components that are smaller than the goo they're made out of and it just gets silly.
The diversity of resources across New Eden, such that some areas may be coveted for one thing or another... conflicts with player's desire to build any kind of ship or module solely using one region's resources. I don't think market hubs are going away.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#55 - 2014-06-11 22:10:42 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
ElectronHerd Askulf wrote:
Gilbaron wrote:
something along the lines of getting 20% more from refining in nullsec ?

i always hated it when people talked about free minerals, but yeah, those are free because you can't easily sell them in a market hub and have to produce locally.
That helps a hell of a lot, but my concern is around tech 2 stuff. You're lucky if you can build even 1 race's components from local resources. Then you get key components that are smaller than the goo they're made out of and it just gets silly.
The diversity of resources across New Eden, such that some areas may be coveted for one thing or another... conflicts with player's desire to build any kind of ship or module solely using one region's resources. I don't think market hubs are going away.


They don't need to go away, but instead of bringing all the stuff from there to your "home", you should only bring surpluses from your home to the hubs (ie rare minerals, moon goo surplus) and from the hubs things that you cannot get in your home back (ie specific mods, moon goo products from other regions/the other side of the cluster).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Current Habit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-06-11 23:00:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Current Habit
Right now the team auction notification seems bugged. When losing a bid instead of showing the system that won the auction it names the system the person that made a bid actually bidded for.

For example
Quote:

Your bid on Core Complexion Inc.
Team MMG00 was not successful. K3JR-J had the highest bid of 2.300.000 ISK. Your bid of 2.000.000 ISK will be returned to you. Core Complexion Inc.
Team MMG00 is now available for hire in K3JR-J.


According to the notification the team is in K3J (in the system I made a bid for), actually it's in Amamake (https://imgur.com/q2iN38N), the system I used an alt to bid for.

Additionally, the top contributors list shows the top contributors for the system pool the person was bidding for and not the top contributors for the winning bid. This might be intentional though, the wording isn't clear.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#57 - 2014-06-12 04:10:59 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:


The diversity of resources across New Eden, such that some areas may be coveted for one thing or another... conflicts with player's desire to build any kind of ship or module solely using one region's resources. I don't think market hubs are going away.


They don't need to go away, but instead of bringing all the stuff from there to your "home", you should only bring surpluses from your home to the hubs (ie rare minerals, moon goo surplus) and from the hubs things that you cannot get in your home back (ie specific mods, moon goo products from other regions/the other side of the cluster).


One thing CCP should have done long ago is to ensure that raw materials to make ships, mods, POS fuel and other essentials would actually take up significantly less cargo space than the finished products, and then ensure that these raw materials could be sourced locally. That's how you lay the groundwork for a local economy with the correct incentives (nobody likes hauling). Rather than nerfing JFs into the ground.
ElectronHerd Askulf
Aridia Logistical Misdirection
#58 - 2014-06-12 05:34:26 UTC
Maduin Shi wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:


The diversity of resources across New Eden, such that some areas may be coveted for one thing or another... conflicts with player's desire to build any kind of ship or module solely using one region's resources. I don't think market hubs are going away.


They don't need to go away, but instead of bringing all the stuff from there to your "home", you should only bring surpluses from your home to the hubs (ie rare minerals, moon goo surplus) and from the hubs things that you cannot get in your home back (ie specific mods, moon goo products from other regions/the other side of the cluster).


One thing CCP should have done long ago is to ensure that raw materials to make ships, mods, POS fuel and other essentials would actually take up significantly less cargo space than the finished products, and then ensure that these raw materials could be sourced locally. That's how you lay the groundwork for a local economy with the correct incentives (nobody likes hauling). Rather than nerfing JFs into the ground.


There are other considerations to sizes of various things, unfortunately. Modules are expected to take a certain volume according to their intended hull, but must use enough raw materials to keep their cost in line. I suspect that the metamaterials are large to constrain the sorts of POS setups that can be used to create them. Or perhaps there is no good reason that the raw materials for a HAC take nearly twice the volume of the finished ship.

There are also good aspects to the uneven distribution of resources: it forces various areas in the New Eden universe to interact with each other economically. I feel that this makes our game economy richer and more complex (in a good way). It also provides a source of potential conflict (ice interdictions, fights over R64 moons, etc) and tension. Ironically, it has also lead to various non-aggression pacts and treaties: some resources are too valuable to fight over.

CCP evidently doesn't like jump freight, for various reasons. Others have described its necessity (in the current state of the game) better than I can.

If it is CCPs desire to make null sec industry more viable in all its flavors, they will need to find a trade-off between these various goals and constraints. If that is not CCP's desire, I would like to know. My personal stake in this is as a leader in an alliance that recruits new players into null sec, I want to provide them the opportunity to experience this part of the game conveniently. I don't expect them to be able to compete with large, focused players, but I would like it to not be an exercise in absurdity.
shaun 27
Bulldog Industry
#59 - 2014-06-12 07:02:50 UTC  |  Edited by: shaun 27
Will you need to have max run bpcs for max run on invention as atm i cant seem to invent or copy anything. If you do need max runs will you look at copying time because for instance (@ pos with maxed skills) copying 1 curator 200 run is like 18 hours per bpc.

Invention error @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
FACILITY_TYPE
The job cost has changed

Error.FACILITY_TYPE (23564,)
Error.MISMATCH_COST (22, 25)

Copying error on both new and researched blueprints @ pos

Unable to install job due to the following reasons:
The job cost has changed

Error.MISMATCH_COST (3976, 3890)

Also as i stated in a previous post here regarding tax ie system cost index. Will i be able to spam all the moons in a none system station to keep this cost down and stop other people raising it Or is this a constant price and isnt effected by amount of industry related jobs, Because you said that theirs no tax at pos's and i kinda see this as tax tbh. I assume this would be 0 in player owned systems and lower in low sec but shouldn't corps with standings towards a certain faction get a reduction on this cost if it is the case that pos's get charged system cost index (shouldnt be better then low sec or 0.0 though even with high standings)

shaun
Current Habit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-06-12 08:45:01 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:

Yes you should be able to start a job with a blueprint in a container.

Performance with 20,000 blueprints is going to be sub-optimal at the moment, but we still have plans to optimize performance for heavy users, including improving the filtering options based on feedback.


As of right now I still can't use a BP from a station container, this is what I've used and when moving the BP out of the container the job starts without problems.