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Dev blog: Researching, the Future

First post First post First post
Author
Sigras
Conglomo
#861 - 2014-05-12 17:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Darin Vanar wrote:
Sigras wrote:

You would have a point if the game required your character to actively research the BPO, but it's just something you can passively do in the background while your character does other stuff.

See when you're sent to jail, youre required to actively be in jail for that time, it isnt just something you can do in the background as you go out and work your job and live your life.

You know what does work passively in the background while you live your life? Investment funds ... gee, its almost as though researching BPOs is an investment.


Yeah, that would work out all well and fine, if I was planning my retirement. :P

And you would be locking out your science lines, so in effect you may not be in jail, but your character is technically locked from whatever skill slots you assigned to that research for a very long time.

I would like to play the game more actively, not wait to play it, when I'm say, 80.

In real life, you can have an unlimited amount of investment funds, so it's a little unfair to apply that to one character in a game, that only has several skill slots. And those skill slots were designed to be used a little more pro-actively, than what they are proposing now. Unless they want to get rid of those slots all-together too? Wouldn't that be a new wrinkle.

Even if you could, I don't know why you would. I pay to play this game, not have it passively play in the background for me.

Exaggerated figures and all. I think you get the overall gist of my problems with this new system.

Oh I agree it is a problem; just not to the scale that you think it is... That said, I have called for a move to a 100 level system from a 10 level one several times for that reason.

I just disagree with you use of hyperbole as an adequate description of the situation.
Luke Erata
Divergent Contrivances
#862 - 2014-05-13 01:11:10 UTC
Ok, I went through about ten pages and was not going to read it all.

In regards to the over researched BPOs, instead of some sort of abuse able token i would like to see a sheering effect where multiple BPOs are generated. Lets say i had a BC BPO at 100, instead of getting a single "perfect" BPO and some time token things, i would get 10 perfect BPOs. Of course some sort of limiting mechanic based on existing BPO researching multipliers should be used. IMO this would offset my profit per unit, that was lost to someone who spent 10% of my time researching, by increasing my productivity. i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.
superNuts
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#863 - 2014-05-13 01:35:28 UTC
Luke Erata wrote:
Ok, I went through about ten pages and was not going to read it all.

In regards to the over researched BPOs, instead of some sort of abuse able token i would like to see a sheering effect where multiple BPOs are generated. Lets say i had a BC BPO at 100, instead of getting a single "perfect" BPO and some time token things, i would get 10 perfect BPOs. Of course some sort of limiting mechanic based on existing BPO researching multipliers should be used. IMO this would offset my profit per unit, that was lost to someone who spent 10% of my time researching, by increasing my productivity. i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.




I'm with this guy. My over researched BPCs are a steady source of isk, and that research took a lot of time. I still have a couple research jobs going that had to be queued MONTHS ago. One of the things that I don't think has been adequately answered is; was this change a priority? Are there thousands of pilots out there that constantly complain that the research mechanics are a hindrance to their gameplay? Is there a large special interest group in game that demands that everyone that has spent months and in some cases years suddenly needs to be on par with the noobs for fairness? Does it free up resources in the hardware server side? Researchacide gets two thumbs down from me!
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#864 - 2014-05-13 02:06:39 UTC
Luke Erata wrote:
... i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.


Better educated minds think your idea is ****

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them

Luke Erata
Divergent Contrivances
#865 - 2014-05-13 03:21:52 UTC
Dramaticus wrote:
Luke Erata wrote:
... i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.


Better educated minds think your idea is ****



Perhaps I should give more detail to my idea. I immediately see why you dislike my suggestion as there could potentially be thousands more "perfect" researched BPOs. So to clarify if i had a BPO researched to lvl 100 currently, a single "perfect" BPO would be generated using 10 of those lvls. The remaining 90 would then be applied as time to a second BPO of the same item under the new time tables. If there are enough levels to cross the thresh hold for a "perfect" BPO under the new tables for that specific BPO, it moves on to a third. If there is not enough time to make a second "perfect" BPO it brings it to the apropriate level under the new format. I am NOT suggesting that that a lvl 100 BPO be broken into 10 "perfect" BPOs. As i said before "some sort of limiting mechanic based on existing BPO researching multipliers". I left it open ended because I am well aware that i do not know the nitty gritty details of all the math. Now i can see where in some cases this would be an issue, as it will increase player productivity in a tight market. However, if we were to receive some sort of token for time [similar to extra skill points] could the not be exploited to create BPOs in exactly the same manner? The reason i prefer my example is it only increases productivity in the areas players have already invested themselves. I imagine some idiot out there who created hundreds of lvl 20 T1 ammo BPOs getting the aforementioned "tokens" and applying them to something much more costly. Sure time is time, but he did not have his capital tied up in a more expensive BPO while it was being researched.

Again I am only offering a different idea, one opposing "time tokens", to the BPOs that are researched beyond lvl 10.
asteroidjas
Rothschild's Sewage and Septic Sucking Services
The Possum Lodge
#866 - 2014-05-13 03:34:49 UTC
I'll put this here too, just to hope it gets seen.

I think this whole industry/research change that requires ALL blueprints to be in the exact location of their operation should happen at the same time there is a centralized POS storage.

Material Tetris at a tower is bad enough, let alone the new Blueprint Tetris with all the new hundreds of copies you want us to use under the new system. I would have no problem with this change if it weren't ADDING lots of extra headaches for those who chose to build/research in a POS. For once, think of how players actually use your product, and not only thinking about how 'neat' or shiney something is. Try to consider the daily use-case scenarios. (yes, the INTERFACE will be much better, but Tetris is not a mini-game i wish to play inside of Eve.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#867 - 2014-05-13 03:59:49 UTC
Luke Erata wrote:
I imagine some idiot out there who created hundreds of lvl 20 T1 ammo BPOs getting the aforementioned "tokens" and applying them to something much more costly. Sure time is time, but he did not have his capital tied up in a more expensive BPO while it was being researched.

Again I am only offering a different idea, one opposing "time tokens", to the BPOs that are researched beyond lvl 10.

yeah i too think its a good idea to spawn massive amounts of free bpos for idiots who spent ages on useless research

gimme gimme gimme

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

per
311. Bomber squadron
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#868 - 2014-05-13 12:16:33 UTC
about those BPO's / BPC's that are over-researched ... just take the time that was researcher over perfect ME and turn it into perfect ME BPC's that we could have had for that same amount of time


and for all those that call us dumb and stupid for researching over perfect ME try to sell same BPC with perfect ME and over-rsearched ME for same price and guess which one will be sold first .. we did research those BPO's like long term investment and not for our fun or pleasure (well maybe some ppl did)



overall i like those changes that will hit us soon
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#869 - 2014-05-13 13:32:07 UTC
Luke Erata wrote:
Ok, I went through about ten pages and was not going to read it all.

In regards to the over researched BPOs, instead of some sort of abuse able token i would like to see a sheering effect where multiple BPOs are generated. Lets say i had a BC BPO at 100, instead of getting a single "perfect" BPO and some time token things, i would get 10 perfect BPOs. Of course some sort of limiting mechanic based on existing BPO researching multipliers should be used. IMO this would offset my profit per unit, that was lost to someone who spent 10% of my time researching, by increasing my productivity. i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.


I too would like an opportunity for us to instantly make 10's of trillions. What could possibly go wrong.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#870 - 2014-05-13 13:38:54 UTC
Luke Erata wrote:
Ok, I went through about ten pages and was not going to read it all.

In regards to the over researched BPOs, instead of some sort of abuse able token i would like to see a sheering effect where multiple BPOs are generated. Lets say i had a BC BPO at 100, instead of getting a single "perfect" BPO and some time token things, i would get 10 perfect BPOs. Of course some sort of limiting mechanic based on existing BPO researching multipliers should be used. IMO this would offset my profit per unit, that was lost to someone who spent 10% of my time researching, by increasing my productivity. i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.


Injecting tens or hundreds of trillions of ISK into the economy would probably be a bad thing for inflation I think. Have you considered not doing that.

Frankly overly researched BPOs have already been useful. It's like saying I bought a ton of T3 ships right before a big T3 nerf and their value went down and I should be compensated. Um, no.

Overly researched BPOs were very valuable and now they're going to just be valuable. Making duplicate BPOs has to be off the table. Can you imagine the threadnaught if they pushed even more money towards the people who already have it. Not good.
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#871 - 2014-05-13 13:45:26 UTC
From Greyscale's original blog:
" removing the weird outsized TE bonus on fuel blocks (I'm pretty sure that's my fault and I'm pretty sure I did it by accident),"

I think this "by accident" can describe pretty much all the stuff he'd planned for this industry overhaul. He doesn't understand the game, the mechanics or the unintended consequences. He doesn't think things through.

You want more copies, no problem, just a database update... (Oh, that messes up copy time and invention? Didn't realize that.)

No more remote research? Sure. Oh, corp theft? Didn't think about that.

Shorter copy times, yep... let's do that. Oh, I just drastically changed T2 BPO production?

Totally change the way research works, no problem. Oh, just broke rounding and will kill new players? Hmmm.

Teams that allow mega corps to outbid then crush any small corps? Excellent idea. Oh, wait.

Infinite slots, so 1,000,000 jobs can be running inside a single assembly array at a small POS? Sure. Ummm... any negative potential there I'm not seeing?

No standings needed for planting a POS. That won't change any game play, right?


Game design "By accident".
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#872 - 2014-05-13 13:47:07 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Luke Erata wrote:
Ok, I went through about ten pages and was not going to read it all.

In regards to the over researched BPOs, instead of some sort of abuse able token i would like to see a sheering effect where multiple BPOs are generated. Lets say i had a BC BPO at 100, instead of getting a single "perfect" BPO and some time token things, i would get 10 perfect BPOs. Of course some sort of limiting mechanic based on existing BPO researching multipliers should be used. IMO this would offset my profit per unit, that was lost to someone who spent 10% of my time researching, by increasing my productivity. i will leave the exact math to better educated minds but i think the idea is sound.


Injecting tens or hundreds of trillions of ISK into the economy would probably be a bad thing for inflation I think. Have you considered not doing that.

Frankly overly researched BPOs have already been useful. It's like saying I bought a ton of T3 ships right before a big T3 nerf and their value went down and I should be compensated. Um, no.

Overly researched BPOs were very valuable and now they're going to just be valuable. Making duplicate BPOs has to be off the table. Can you imagine the threadnaught if they pushed even more money towards the people who already have it. Not good.


I suspect the research change is one of the big reasons the industry stuff was delayed 6 weeks. People counting on the big "round up" may be counting their chickens before they've hatched.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#873 - 2014-05-13 17:11:36 UTC
Man, the last twenty pages or so were an absolute blast to read, thanks for the enlightening commentary everyone.

Anyway, as per the other thread, I'm back from Fanfest and we've announced the split between Kronos and Crius, so now is a good time for an update!

I am hoping to do a follow-up blog to cover a bunch of things, but it doesn't hurt to outline most of them here first.

Things being worked on:

We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)

We are going to unify ME and TE per-level research times on all blueprints. Currently it looks like most T2 and capital BPOs have different TE and ME times. We're planning on kicking T2 BPO times up to the higher of the two values, and capital ones down to the lower of the two.

Ytterbium is doing some legwork to allow you to build starbase structures in starbases, because that seemed reasonable.

As mentioned at Fanfest, we're looking very hard at a lowsec-only component assembly array (not for fuel, RAMs etc) that has a reasonable ME bonus, to allow lowsec cap manufacturers to stay ballpark competitive with nullsec builders after the refine changes.

Copy times are currently a bit weird. We are rebasing the authored values so they're all specified per-run rather than per-max-run as they more or less seem to be currently. (Copy pricing will also revolve around cost-per-run.)

We're probably going to pull the research ranks down significantly on capital ship blueprints, and potentially also on T1 ships TBD.

I've got a to-do note to revise upwards the max runs count on both cap components and nanite paste. We want to revisit how max runs works in the nearish future; its impact on invention prevents us from doing this immediately.

Things we are fairly sure we're not doing:

We're still very keen to stay with a 10-point system. We acknowledge the advantages of 100 points, but don't feel it's hugely compelling from a usability point of view, or that it's a sufficiently important part of post-Crius industry to want to spend a lot of extra time on it.

I looked into getting numbers for T2 ship use responsiveness to cost changes, but we determined that it probably wasn't worth the analysis needed just to resolve a side-discussion in a forum thread :)

Still on my to-do list:

Look at Gallente outposts. This may involve kicking T2 copy times right back up again, that's the simplest solution available :)

Have another look at NPC nullsec stations, see if they need some assistance.

Have another look at the way we're scaling research levels, to see in particular if the kink around level 9 is acceptable.

Sort out what we're doing with Molden Heath bonuses (re DUST )

To discuss:

We're currently leaning heavily towards calculating ME for the job as a whole, not per-run, probably with a limiter that requires every run always consumes at least one of every material (to prevent 9 apocs -> 10 paladins shenanigans).

This obviously has a knock-on effect on current "perfect ME" blueprints, as the ability to add up all those roundings over multiple runs will create gains that weren't currently possible. This is already going to be the case in many scenarios with the various additional ME bonuses available in Crius, so there's no obvious strong reason not to, but we wanted to run this past people for opinions obviously :)



Anyway, that's what's up, I'm going to answer a few specific posts next.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#874 - 2014-05-13 17:13:42 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
Will we be able to skill up blueprints more than once per job? E.g. going from ME 0% to ME 10% for an ammo blueprint by sticking it in for 3d straight?


Nullabor says "yes".

Valterra Craven wrote:
I understand why CCP is doing what they are doing (even if I dont like it) in terms of the push vs pull mechanic in terms of industry, but one thing I don't understand is why the "optimal" ME levels are become so curvey instead of so linear? It seems alittle insane for a game thats only been going on 10 years to require someone to research a bpo for 6 years (even if a high end one) to reach level 10 ME. What exactly is the "gameplay" benefit or the reasoning behind doing this.... I just don't understand why you'd want to do this vs the old system where each level required the same amount of research time.


In any case, I have an idea for keeping numerous pos modules relevant.

Parallelism.

In other words the "killer feature" of POS would be to allow you to break up research jobs in parallel to complete them faster.
You have two mods, you can break them up to complete twice as fast and so and so forth.

I did some rough estimates, and it looks like with a dread gur tower and assuming labs cpu cost of 500 cpu would allow you to have 15 labs at once if that's all you put on it. So to balance this you could either hugely increase the cpu cost so that it wouldn't be wise to go over 3-4 labs, or limit the amount of jobs that you could run in parallel. (I'd say balance it on the average number of labs people run now). I'd also mess with the current numbers that labs give bonuses to so that they are closer to NPC stations. In this way, POS don't compete with NPC/Null stations in the same way.

To be fair this could also be adapted to production jobs as well.


This is interesting.

DetKhord Saisio wrote:
DetKhord Saisio wrote:
Researching, The Future Dev Blog wrote:
currently the trend is that T1 blueprints take 20x longer to copy than to build
If my math is correct below, your statement appears to be misleading. Do you have any examples of this trend you speak of, other than maybe doomsday devices?

Item -- Copy Time -- Build time -- Copy to Build Ratio
Prototype Cloaking Device I -- 3 Hours, 20 Minutes -- 1 Hour, 46 Minutes -- ~1.8868
Moros -- 44 Days, 10 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 11 Days, 20 Hours, 26 Minutes -- ~ 3.7493
Condor -- 1 Hour, 40 Minutes -- 1 Hour, 20 Minutes -- 1.25
Large Shield Extender I -- 1 Minute -- 8 Minutes -- 0.125
Mega Beam Laser I -- 1 Minute -- 8 Minutes -- 0.125
Judgement -- 31 Days, 6 Hours -- 1 Day, 16 Hours -- 18.75
Scourge Torpedo -- 6 Seconds -- 4 Minutes -- 0.025
Avatar -- 177 Days, 18 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 47 Days, 9 Hours, 46 Minutes -- ~3.75
Celestis -- 6 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 2 Hours, 40 Minutes -- 2.5
Tempest -- 15 Hours -- 4 Hours -- 3.75
Catalyst -- 3 Hours, 45 Minutes -- 2 Hours -- 1.875
Cap Booster 400 -- 2 Seconds -- 1 Minute, 36 Seconds -- ~0.0208
Core Scanner Probe I -- 3 Seconds -- 1 Minute, 36 Seconds -- 0.03125
Bump for reply from CCP Greyscale or CCP Phantom.


Yeah, I made some assumptions about the mapping between the number in the database and the number in the client that turned out not to be true :/ It's not a big deal going forwards as we know exactly what the numbers do in the new system, but yeah, the way the blog describes the current balance is not accurate. Sorry about that :)
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#875 - 2014-05-13 17:52:20 UTC
Quote:
We're currently leaning heavily towards calculating ME for the job as a whole, not per-run, probably with a limiter that requires every run always consumes at least one of every material (to prevent 9 apocs -> 10 paladins shenanigans).


that would be a really nice change, offers some very interesting optimisation options when considering job length. you may or may not have to adjust some material requirements to make sure that overall material consumption remains the same. the numbers can quickly ad up towards some significant changes for certain items, mainly capital ships, POS mods and T2 components. luckily, you have won some additional time by delaying the release

good to see you are working on adding POS mods to the stuff that can me made in a POS. would be the first time that i can say that i made an actual impact on the game by telling the devs about something :D
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#876 - 2014-05-13 18:07:35 UTC
Quote:
We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)


If i understood this right it's a rather massive T2 BPO nerf.

if you want to touch T2 BPOs you should NOT touch their profitability. touch the impact they have on the market.
Odoya
Aeon Abraxas
#877 - 2014-05-13 18:08:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


I looked into getting numbers for T2 ship use responsiveness to cost changes, but we determined that it probably wasn't worth the analysis needed just to resolve a side-discussion in a forum thread :).


Do you mean the change in sell/buy rates or ?? Production changes? or ??
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#878 - 2014-05-13 18:21:04 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Things being worked on:

We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)



I dont think this is a good idea. Negative ME lvls have VERY big impact on materials needed. If you turn negative ME into positive ME on t2 items, we are looking on massive devaluation of everything T2, prices dropping by half and more. Just dont touch current invention system, it is good as it is, it gives out many interesting opportunities when manufacturing. And its already profitable, a lot, if one can use excel.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#879 - 2014-05-13 18:33:01 UTC
Zakarumit CZ wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Things being worked on:

We are currently of a mind to shift invented BPCs so they have positive (or at worst 0) ME and TE figures. This a) prevents the removal of extra materials giving invention an extra-hard kick, and in particular b) prevents every invented T2 item from requiring two of the relevant T1 items (due to always rounding up materials). This will probably put all invented BPCs in the 1-5% ME/2-10% TE range, with decryptors adjusted to match. We may adjust T2 build costs upwards across the board to put the net T2 resource usage roughly where it is currently, so we don't end up nerfing the demand for T2 components. (This obviously also serves to close the gap somewhat between invention and T2 BPOs; this is not a goal here but it's an acceptable side-effect.)



I dont think this is a good idea. Negative ME lvls have VERY big impact on materials needed. If you turn negative ME into positive ME on t2 items, we are looking on massive devaluation of everything T2, prices dropping by half and more. Just dont touch current invention system, it is good as it is, it gives out many interesting opportunities when manufacturing. And its already profitable, a lot, if one can use excel.



Did you read the part where he acknowledged this and said they would increase resources needed to build something ie - making it cost the same? I bolded it for you so you dont miss it.
Zakarumit CZ
Zakarum Industries
Forgers United
#880 - 2014-05-13 18:37:56 UTC
OopsSorry, missed it.
But then I must ask - whats the benefit? If you will be able to invent better ME but it will cost proportionally more, the cost will remain the same, probably also the profit. Whats the point really? If its really because of the problems CCP Greyscale highlighted, i.e. extra materials and need of 2* t1 item, isnt it overkill? Isnt there really any reasonable way how to bypass those issues without changing all decryptors and materials needed for all items? What?