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[Kronos] Factional Warfare Complex Improvements

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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#181 - 2014-05-11 20:03:54 UTC
I say if a change steps on a few toes in exchange of making pretty much everything else better, its a decent change (the cloak change)

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#182 - 2014-05-11 20:12:41 UTC
Perhaps we can make the cloaking change exclude covert ops cloaking devices? This way we can still use Recon ships and SoE ships tactically.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#183 - 2014-05-11 20:33:12 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
Perhaps we can make the cloaking change exclude covert ops cloaking devices? This way we can still use Recon ships and SoE ships tactically.

Implementation wouldn't allow that kind of differentiation. Basically if you're within 30km of the button you're at 0km from the button.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Flyinghotpocket
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#184 - 2014-05-11 23:24:23 UTC
lets use navy harbs in these new larges said no one ever.

or 90% of the other bc's and commandships

make larges restricted.

unrestricted larges are useless. i can guarantee you nobody will be resubbing to die to arty nados

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#185 - 2014-05-11 23:45:55 UTC
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

And that exact scenario is why most plex farmers use stabbed ships.


The exact scenario which leads to most plex farmers using stabbed ships is far more trivial: Because they can use stabbed ships and still make LP. It has nothing to do with blobs, since they are not there to fight in any case! In a perfect 1v1 world, the 3 day farming alt would still be stabbed, because it has about a snowball's chance in hell in case an actual engagement happens and because the person controlling it is not there to fight.

The system sort of rewards not fighting (warp off/cloak up, bore your "attacker" to death, proceed to capture the plex as if nothing happened) because there is no actual penalty to not fighting (unless you run across a persistent hunter who denies you the ability to plex across several systems without getting bored as hell), so people will not fight unless they are looking for fights in the first place.

Yes the 3 day farmer would still stab but the 5 mil Sp farmer would be less likely to.

Your response, although I doubt it intentional, just backed up my proposal.

99% of 3 day old no skill farming alts belong to established players who should not get an easy ride to riches by training "Warp Drive Operation 1"

I used to think I was really bad at 1 v 1 pvp until i looked at my alts kilboard and saw, out of 9 losses, all were in plexes, 1 was 1 v 1, the rest involved 5 or more players. Due to Eve Pvp mentality of "more wins" I'll keep my plex ships stabbed.

For those who go to plexes looking for 1 v 1 Pvp, I feel sorry for you, the blob mentality has and will continue to deny you kills.

Someone said it is un-eve like to have the sort of thing I propose. I ask WHY - we have it every year with alliance tournaments.

I wonder how many of the "don't do it" crowd would react the same if a dev had proposed - The possibility of removing 90% of stabbed farming alts ( or at least make it far harder for them) and creating more small scale pvp content.

Lock gates in small, novice plexes for 1 v 1 fights, add timer resets for those who warp out to avoid a fight. Removes at least 90% of alt farmers, creates new content in FW. Solo hunters can still use those plexes to look for fights and are more than likely to get more. The only ones who lose out are the small gang blobs that "ewar only" these sites.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#186 - 2014-05-11 23:49:47 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Endo Saissore wrote:
Perhaps we can make the cloaking change exclude covert ops cloaking devices? This way we can still use Recon ships and SoE ships tactically.

Implementation wouldn't allow that kind of differentiation. Basically if you're within 30km of the button you're at 0km from the button.


I think you misunderstand me. Make it so cloaking devices cant be used within 30km, but covert ops cloaking devices can be. Range isn't a factor, the type of cloak you use is.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#187 - 2014-05-12 01:06:00 UTC


X Gallentius wrote:
Yeah actually just not being able to collect lp if your ship has a cloak/stab is pretty straightforward and simple way to increase risk while not hurting other forms of gameplay.



In a world without mobile depots that would work, but alas....
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2014-05-12 01:08:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
Yun Kuai wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Cloaking prevention within capture range
To help ensure balance around cloak use in FW complexes, we are disallowing cloaking within 30km of the capture point. This is achieved through an inert beacon with a 30km radius, so that when you are within capture range of the point you are also always 0km from an object.

We received some requests at Fanfest to increase this radius farther, which we will consider after we have seen how this first change plays out. One of the advantages of using the 30km radius is that it will still be possible for a cloaking combat ship to sit 30km from the capture point in the direction of the warpin location and remain close enough to the warpin to make hunting viable.



Well let's see how to begin...
First, my arazu would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Second, my rapier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Third, my pilgrim would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fourth, my falcon would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Fifth, my astero would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Sixth, my stratios would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Seventh, my nemesis would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Eighth, my manticore would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Ninth, my purifier would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.
Tenth, my hound would like a word with you about how it won't be viable in plex fights anymore.

Should I keep going with every other cloaking ship in the game that has now been ruined because you decided to fix the farmers ability to cloak inside a plex instead of addressing the problem of it being better and more profitable to just run instead of fighting?

Bad move on this one. I now have to burn over 30km once inside the plex to cloak up and then always be at least 30km from the target if they sit at 0 on the warp-in. Which warp scrambler goes out beyond 30km on the arazu again? Oh that's right they don't unless I spend over 150mil for a faction scrambler and have maxed out boost in system....

/me starts a slow cap in rememberence of those brave cloaky ships that can't be flown in the warzone again



@CCP Fozzie,

Can you please provide some more insight as these decisions:
1) What is the reasoning behind thinking that cloaking is the bigger issue over stabs when addressing the farming issue and plexes?

2) What is the logic behind not trying to address the problem that it is more profitable to run and hide versus actively trying to defend your plex?

3) Why do you feel that it is not okay to ban a single module that is designed purely to allow people to run but feel comfortable in all but eliminating over 10 ships who use covert op cloaks from use inside of plexes except now in very niche cases?

Thank you for the responses!

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#189 - 2014-05-12 01:19:05 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:


I think you misunderstand me. Make it so cloaking devices cant be used within 30km, but covert ops cloaking devices can be. Range isn't a factor, the type of cloak you use is.

You misunderstand how the devs are changing it. they are making the button have a 30km radius size. so your cloak deactivates since you are inside 2500m of an object. Regardless of type of cloak since they all have that limit.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#190 - 2014-05-12 01:21:41 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:


3) Why do you feel that it is not okay to ban a single module that is designed purely to allow people to run but feel comfortable in all but eliminating over 10 ships who use covert op cloaks from use inside of plexes except now in very niche cases?

Thank you for the responses!

Fit prop mod, be closer than 30km almost instantly, profit? Most of those ships don't need to be inside 30, most people won't sit at 0 on the beacon so you can get closer than 30 sometimes and you can move once you decloak.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#191 - 2014-05-12 01:25:02 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Angelus Ryan wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I don't see why anyone would be against 1 v 1 fights in plexes, unless they don't want to have to fight 1 other ship alone and need friends.


I spend most of my time flying alone in FW space and I am entirely against such a change, despite me muttering "damn blobs" often enough.

I think that it will lead to more people running since they cannot bring their own backup. People are more likely to engage if they know their friends from next door can come to help and this provides more targets for people who can kill tackle, separate gangs, use deadspace to even the field or use plexes to bait enemy gangs into their own gang. Remove that, and at that point only the hardcore 1v1 crowd (and their links!) will bother to enter these plexes.

That, and farmers.

As unbelievable as it can sound to some people: There is no need to force 1v1s to happen with contrived mechanics. They are out there and can be found.

And that exact scenario is why most plex farmers use stabbed ships.
Most of the dedicated farmers I have met don't have backup so when someone enters Dscan range they leave, only to return once the threat is gone, to again sit on the button with no consequences.

I suppose it really comes down to, people who complain about wcs in plexes are only doing so because it simply doesn't suit them. They don't want anything more than to ban wcs from plexes and force others to play to their style. I want to kill something every time I enter a plex, remove WCS.

As for forcing solo pvp with contrived mechanics - Every mechanic is contrived, that is how mechanics come about. The mechanic that allows someone to call 20 friends in to help him in a novice plex because he is losing a 1 v 1 fight was once also contrived - but it now seems to be acceptable.

The run of the mill attitude in this and other threads like it seems to be, Change is good but only if it changes someone else's play style to make mine easier.


The cloaky stabbed plexers have pretty much 99% god mode. Now, I ask why someone using a 5 day old alt that risks practically nothing should be making those sums? And I'm talking about an activity so easy bots are doing it. A few days training, 2mil or less for a ship, and about the same effort as mining and it makes more than level 5 missions, more than the lower class sleepers, etc etc etc

There is supposed to be risk involved, and I'm not talking about losing a couple minutes on a plex timer. Huge rewards should come at the cost of high risk.

FW wasn't created to be an LP faucet for the masses, but the sad truth is that a growing majority feel it is. With the worthless lazy farmers, that add nothing to this part of the sandbox except ghosts to chase, being a majority it's doubtful any meaningful changes will be made because there are too many entitled moaners in this thread whining about their precious income.......
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2014-05-12 05:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Yun Kuai wrote:


3) Why do you feel that it is not okay to ban a single module that is designed purely to allow people to run but feel comfortable in all but eliminating over 10 ships who use covert op cloaks from use inside of plexes except now in very niche cases?

Thank you for the responses!

Fit prop mod, be closer than 30km almost instantly, profit? Most of those ships don't need to be inside 30, most people won't sit at 0 on the beacon so you can get closer than 30 sometimes and you can move once you decloak.



First let me clear up what I'm talking about here. I'm not just talking about hunting the farmers. You're right most of those guys will sit right on the edge which means you can catch them. I'm talking about actually engaging in faction warfare with real PVP ships with the intent of killing other PVP ships.

The pilgrim....
I use it to go out solo hunting. There are plenty of 2-3 man destroyer gangs running around in thrashers and cats which are perfect for my pilgrim to fight. Those destroyers sit at 0km on the warp-in. My pilgrim is also 10mn AB fit as well so I will now have to AB over 30km at a blazing 550m/s and hope they either a) stick around to fight or b) we role play a scene from a comedy movie where the guy sneaking up is completely obvious and tells the guys he is sneaking up on to pretend he's not there so they finish the scene. While option b would be fun I don't think it's going to happen very often.

Which brings me to my point I was trying to make. Eliminating cloaks within 30km of the capture point takes out cloaky ships from plex fights in 99% of all cases except for those very few niche cases, like falcon at 90km. But falcon at 90km means you had him on d-scan while he was burning 30+ Km off the warp in before he could cloak up and finish slow boating the rest of the distance.

So my question still stands, why is not banning a module that is designed to allow people to run away allowed inside of plexes supported when not allowing the use of specialty ships the super majority of the time also supported? I would much rather see a module that goes counter intuitive to faction warfare limited vs expensive ships that are being put at real risk being banned.

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#193 - 2014-05-12 06:13:37 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:


X Gallentius wrote:
Yeah actually just not being able to collect lp if your ship has a cloak/stab is pretty straightforward and simple way to increase risk while not hurting other forms of gameplay.



In a world without mobile depots that would work, but alas....

OK, I guess were just back to "timer won't run if your ship is fitted with a stab/cloak". I can live with that.
HuGo87
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#194 - 2014-05-12 06:46:56 UTC
I love the no-cloaking in plexes idea, I've seen way to many cloaky tristans farming all day long, and they're a PITA. I do inmensly enjoy aproaching them, decloaking them and killing them though. Especially then I've two scrams and they're stabbed! :D

However, this does screw recon ships and alike. It also nerfs scouting (I can't warp in and cloak my Buzzard any more!).

I think there's two options we can consider:

  • Only affecting non-covert-ops cloaking devices. Ships that use those generally rely on them to work as expected.
  • However, this does sound more technically complicated for you guys. Also, does everybody else want to stone me to death for suggesting that we allow some ships to cloak??

  • Another choice (I belive this would satify almost everyone) is that ships with cloaking devices fitted don't affect the timer, even uncloaked. So atrons with cloaks or falcons with covops will never affect the timer, even while uncloaked, making the sit-still-and-cloak-whenever-somebody-warps-in" tactic completely unprofitable, but recon traps still work.
Ambo
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#195 - 2014-05-12 08:09:25 UTC
Just re-iterating what others have said really... Nice that there are some changes but this is missing the mark.

Cloaks are not the problem. Even stabs aren't really a problem.
The real problem is that if you find a farmer, it's a better use of your time to just leave them to it than to run the plex against whatever they've already put on the timer.

IMO, from any given situation, the person looking for a fight should never have a longer time to cap a plex than the person looking to avoid a fight.
Templar Dane
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#196 - 2014-05-12 08:12:22 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Templar Dane wrote:


X Gallentius wrote:
Yeah actually just not being able to collect lp if your ship has a cloak/stab is pretty straightforward and simple way to increase risk while not hurting other forms of gameplay.



In a world without mobile depots that would work, but alas....

OK, I guess were just back to "timer won't run if your ship is fitted with a stab/cloak". I can live with that.



I was always a fan of the button structure locking you and putting an infinipoint on you out to 100km or so. Big smile
HuGo87
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#197 - 2014-05-12 09:11:30 UTC
Templar Dane wrote:


I was always a fan of the button structure locking you and putting an infinipoint on you out to 100km or so. Big smile



This would be nice if it has a bit of locking delay - just so recons and covops get a chance to cloak as soon as they land (while it still avoids someone cloaking after having been in the plex for a while, which is the real issue.).
Madbuster73
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2014-05-12 11:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Madbuster73
I love the new changes!

Thank you Fozzie!

And to all people that are complaining about stabs inside plexes: Stabs are a viable fitting concept and have negative effects.
With the NPC getting better reps the stabs will work against farmers (slower locking-time and less dps)
Hell, they might not even be able to break the reps without damage mod.
It will at least be a LOT harder for stabbed farmers to kill those NPC's and because they will respawn every 2 minutes or so it is gonna be a pain in the ass for them.


Also if Covert Ops Cloaking were gonna be allowed we would only see the farmers switch to Stealth-Bombers to farm and we would be back at Square 1...


So +1 to the changes!!!!
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#199 - 2014-05-12 17:08:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey everyone. I've been chatting with CSM9 about these changes and I want to go into a bit more detail surrounding the plans for NPC spawns, decloak radius and plex farming.

We are aware that some of you are unhappy about the decloak radius blocking your current gameplay with bombers and asteros hunting farmers, and that it can seem to some of you that we're being overly harsh on cloaks without focusing on warp core stabs.

The changes being made to the NPC tanking and spawning are quite significant, and raise the dps barrier for larger sites quite significantly while ensuring that even in sites that a stabbed farmer can complete they will be spending enough time eating through the npcs that their profits will suffer relative to someone running the plex in a pvp fit.

Current design has the Novice frigate tanking 25dps, the Small destroyer tanking 70dps, the Medium cruiser tanking 150dps, and the Large battlecruiser tanking 300dps. We've reduced the HP in the off-tanking areas (shield for the Amarr/Gallente rats, Armor for the Minmatar/Caldari rats, and hull for everyone) but in practice it will take lower dps ships a lot longer to eat through these guys.

The dps barrier as a method of balancing farming works much better for countering warp core stabs than it does for cloaks, since you can get the dps on a cloaked t1 frig significantly higher than you can on a t1 frig with two stabs. This led us to predict that without any other changes to bring balance to cloaked farming the prevalence of cloaks as a farming tool would increase significantly. This is why we decided that the decloak radius is necessary.

Once again, we aren't under any illusions that these changes will "end" farming and that was never a goal. We want to ensure that the choice between fitting for evasion and fitting for dps is a significant one. We are trying to achieve this goal by ensuring that a dps fitted ship can complete the sites significantly faster and has more sites available to it.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#200 - 2014-05-12 17:24:43 UTC
Why not add a DPS penalty to stabs? It doesn't need to be large, but would make killing the rats in a pure stabbed ship near impossible.