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[Future Release] Removing Wh systems from the map/kills EVE API

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Author
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#521 - 2014-05-08 19:45:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
CCP FoxFour wrote:

The gist of the change is that we would like to remove information about NPC kills for wormhole systems in the API.


Do it.

Having read nearly every post in this chain it is surprising to me that so many have a narrow view of what kind of gameplay they can perform to exist in wormhole space and the amount of anger thrown at those who play with different goals.

Wormhole space is not *only* a PvP arena. If it was, it would have zero PvE content. One aspect of PvP is avoidance of combat. If a PvE organization can, through in game information, remove themselves from a PvP fight with no losses, then thay have won they day from their PvP point of view.

I will not argue whether it is too easy for PvE groups to avoid combat. That is not at issue here. The issue is entirely about automatic out of game intel. It should stop for all the reasons CCP has put forward.

As for those groups looking to PvP on PvE groups, it is time to expand your thinking. You complain about groups that log off in carriers and care not for their POS after you burn it to the ground. Is there a reason you cannot occupy, or otherwise take ownership of that same PvE wormholes when you find them? Can you not field a force in a known occupied wormhole for periods of time to eventually catch them returning?

Yes, it would mean moving beyond this single hole occupation meta that dominates wormhole space. Do large k-space entities occupy only one system? Is there something fundamentally impossible about it in wormhole space? If so, perhaps that could be the focus of gameplay discussions, not out of game intel. No one would say that it would be the easy route, but dominating large portions of space should never be easy. It is ironic that it seems WH PvP entities seem to only want to dominate large portions of space from the confines of their single system and the relatively small numbers of pilots that occupy them...

TL;DR Kill the API. Let's see then if WH space residents can come up with fundamentally new ways to use WH space other than what has been the status quo for so long...
Meytal
Doomheim
#522 - 2014-05-08 22:42:52 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
the joke is that every single person in wormhole space is a farmer

In a sense, true. Many of us farm people, instead of NPCs. With CCP's continuing improvements, they've increased by leaps and bounds the safety that the PvP-averse players have while in W-space. For example, we just rolled our C4 static, jumped in, and saw wrecks. By the time I had warped to their site, they had scattered like cockroaches because they saw the sig.

They didn't have to work for that information, they didn't have to train up any skills. They had instant, free intel that is 100% accurate, with no effort required. The one mechanic that has the highest chance of working to catch people doing PvE in W-space now is the logoffski, and that takes significant time and effort to set up. My corp doesn't use it, but others do. This change won't affect me or my corp, but it will affect others in W-space. CCP is now nerfing the data used to set up these traps, removing the last big danger for PvE fleets in W-space.

The PvP corps in this thread are flailing their arms in panic because of the progression CCP is making toward protecting the PvE activities in wormholes, where it is already easy to avoid PvE if you are smart. Previously, it would require preparation and vigilance to keep your PvE fleet safe. Now only the most braindead of people die to hostiles.

The hunters in W-space are backed into a corner as more and more of the methods and tools they use to hunt are being taken away, and more and more safety is being given to those who do not wish to engage in this game's primary, core reason for existence: ship-based PvP combat. It's natural to expect such behaviour when continually backed into a corner.

Those who wish to exist in W-space simply to farm NPCs for ISK are of course in agreement with CCP's course of action. Sadly, the largest voice on the CSM belongs to groups who only care about W-space as an ISK farm, since the "real" action happens in Nullsec.

CCP, yes, the arguments you are using are in fact justifying the removal of the data. However, before responding to cries from any of your friends who may have fallen prey to an efficient, properly-executed Russian Logoffski trap, consider how you have been harming the PvP gameplay in Wormhole space, space many of us have considered the best part of the game that you guys have ever made, and how you may have driven some groups to this tactic because of your recent changes to the game.

Please spend a little bit of time in your design groups talking with the WH CSM, past and present, and honestly try to understand how the game is played in that area of space. Please don't limit yourself to the WH CSMs, because while they may have some past knowledge of tactics used in C1-C4 W-space, their bread and butter has been C5-C6. Talk to some of the prominent C1-C4 WH corps as well. Come up with something that works in the game AND works for ALL of the groups involved, not just your largest CSM constituency.

Please remember that the core of this game is PvP, and that the balance of your game's ecnomy depends greatly on things exploding.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#523 - 2014-05-08 22:52:16 UTC
the fact of the matter is that what you are considering the "norm" of w-space is partially the result of an oversight in the API

now that this is being corrected, you will have to stop relying on this crutch

it is not going to kill PvP

if something like this kills PvP, how the heck does anyone kill anything in nullsec
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#524 - 2014-05-08 23:10:33 UTC  |  Edited by: corbexx
Meytal wrote:

Please spend a little bit of time in your design groups talking with the WH CSM, past and present, and honestly try to understand how the game is played in that area of space. Please don't limit yourself to the WH CSMs, because while they may have some past knowledge of tactics used in C1-C4 W-space, their bread and butter has been C5-C6. Talk to some of the prominent C1-C4 WH corps as well. Come up with something that works in the game AND works for ALL of the groups involved, not just your largest CSM constituency.


I've been chatting to a fair few people from c1 to c4 so you don't need to worry there. Several have my skype so its easy for them to get in contact with me about there concerns (and me get hold of them). As I've said several times my main worry is it affecting the lower end wh's isk.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#525 - 2014-05-08 23:15:43 UTC
Meytal wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
the joke is that every single person in wormhole space is a farmer

In a sense, true. Many of us farm people, instead of NPCs. With CCP's continuing improvements, they've increased by leaps and bounds the safety that the PvP-averse players have while in W-space. For example, we just rolled our C4 static, jumped in, and saw wrecks. By the time I had warped to their site, they had scattered like cockroaches because they saw the sig.

They didn't have to work for that information, they didn't have to train up any skills. They had instant, free intel that is 100% accurate, with no effort required. The one mechanic that has the highest chance of working to catch people doing PvE in W-space now is the logoffski, and that takes significant time and effort to set up. My corp doesn't use it, but others do. This change won't affect me or my corp, but it will affect others in W-space. CCP is now nerfing the data used to set up these traps, removing the last big danger for PvE fleets in W-space.

The PvP corps in this thread are flailing their arms in panic because of the progression CCP is making toward protecting the PvE activities in wormholes, where it is already easy to avoid PvE if you are smart. Previously, it would require preparation and vigilance to keep your PvE fleet safe. Now only the most braindead of people die to hostiles.

The hunters in W-space are backed into a corner as more and more of the methods and tools they use to hunt are being taken away, and more and more safety is being given to those who do not wish to engage in this game's primary, core reason for existence: ship-based PvP combat. It's natural to expect such behaviour when continually backed into a corner.

Those who wish to exist in W-space simply to farm NPCs for ISK are of course in agreement with CCP's course of action. Sadly, the largest voice on the CSM belongs to groups who only care about W-space as an ISK farm, since the "real" action happens in Nullsec.

CCP, yes, the arguments you are using are in fact justifying the removal of the data. However, before responding to cries from any of your friends who may have fallen prey to an efficient, properly-executed Russian Logoffski trap, consider how you have been harming the PvP gameplay in Wormhole space, space many of us have considered the best part of the game that you guys have ever made, and how you may have driven some groups to this tactic because of your recent changes to the game.

Please spend a little bit of time in your design groups talking with the WH CSM, past and present, and honestly try to understand how the game is played in that area of space. Please don't limit yourself to the WH CSMs, because while they may have some past knowledge of tactics used in C1-C4 W-space, their bread and butter has been C5-C6. Talk to some of the prominent C1-C4 WH corps as well. Come up with something that works in the game AND works for ALL of the groups involved, not just your largest CSM constituency.

Please remember that the core of this game is PvP, and that the balance of your game's ecnomy depends greatly on things exploding.


And the Discovery Scanner should also be fixed due to it giving instant unearned intel.

PvE has always been exceptionally safe out here if you're doing it right and that's something that CCP should probably look into sometime.
I said a while ago that the WH CSM should find out who on the Game Design team are full time w spacers and make them their primary point of contact. Ideally there should be two devs who are exceptionally familiar with our way of life, a low wh and a high wh. There are changes being made without the understanding of the effect on w space and having someone on the inside who can point these put early is important.

That the only danger to any wh pve is data crunching via the api is an issue and complaining about it's removal is not the right path. It should be fixed at the source.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#526 - 2014-05-08 23:17:38 UTC
Meytal wrote:

The hunters in W-space are backed into a corner as more and more of the methods and tools they use to hunt are being taken away, and more and more safety is being given to those who do not wish to engage in this game's primary, core reason for existence: ship-based PvP combat. It's natural to expect such behaviour when continually backed into a corner.

Those who wish to exist in W-space simply to farm NPCs for ISK are of course in agreement with CCP's course of action. Sadly, the largest voice on the CSM belongs to groups who only care about W-space as an ISK farm, since the "real" action happens in Nullsec.

CCP, yes, the arguments you are using are in fact justifying the removal of the data. However, before responding to cries from any of your friends who may have fallen prey to an efficient, properly-executed Russian Logoffski trap, consider how you have been harming the PvP gameplay in Wormhole space, space many of us have considered the best part of the game that you guys have ever made, and how you may have driven some groups to this tactic because of your recent changes to the game.


Quoting the gems in this post that sum up our concerns and the reasons why we're so frustrated with the proposed change

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

PDP11
ExoGen Foundation
New Miner's Union
#527 - 2014-05-09 00:32:31 UTC
RudinV wrote:
sorry, but goonies are ignored in this thread by default.

Promiscuous Female wrote:
appeal from non-authority next


Talk about poor signal to noise ratio. This thread needs a moderator to delete the crap.
Then between the one liner crap there are postings with content

Andski wrote:
"we need to be equipped to find farmers in w-space because Reasons"
excellent, use actual reconnaissance and not something that CCP never intended to exist in wormholes

CCP position still seems confused. What is the logic of reporting player kills but not NPC kills if nobody has exited the wormhole? If it is destruction of a capsule then you have the medical clone activation to trigger a public ship kill report. For validation the details have to be verifiable via the API and CCP is forced to publish all player ship kills. What is the game logic that says all player ship combat gets verified but not NPC. Combat in space should leave some trace and if PvP combat gets reported then NPC combat should be reported via the same mechanism into the API. If there is no wormhole player ship kill data in the API then the NPC data should not be reported for consistency. Therefore CCP just needs to be consistent and if that means the data should be removed let the players have their wails and we move on.

Combat in space (nuclear explosions from ship destruction, munitions, etc.) should leave detectable traces in space for some time. If the NPC data is removed from the API the ship scanner should be enhanced to detect the traces of combat within the wormhole. The accuracy of the scanner's report should be like PI planetary reports where skill determines accuracy.

Quote:
"but local"
...has nothing to do with wormholes

'Local' still exists in wormholes, it is only the relay function that is disabled. In a wormhole I've used Local regularly to communicate with other players.

Quote:
"my group depends on this for our meta"
tell that to the AoE DD nerf, the titan tracking nerf and the nano nerf

So what, these are unrelated nerfs.

Wormhole groups looking for PVP will find it much harder to find their fights within the wormhole environment. So I'm not surprised there are protests from wormhole dwellers. The nerf will encouraged wormhole PvPers to boil out of their wormholes into low and null sec systems to perform hit and run combat. Gets them some cheap kills then they disappear before retribution can be organised. This promotes great small gang PvP deep into Alliance areas as you can pop out at random and choose victims at leisure.

Wormhole PvE and mining will be riskier for HiSec or LoSec dwellers as they won't know if a system is active or quiet therefore the risk increases, effectively increasing the chances of being ganked making the activity less profitable. This does add up to a nerf, increases complexity and makes wormholes less attractive to enter.

Established wormhole dwellers will find this nerf makes their life more difficult but I expect they will adapt. It will be harder for new players to become established within wormholes and will increase the pull of the established wormhole corporations.
Nooonnnnnoooo notme
Doomheim
#528 - 2014-05-09 02:51:38 UTC
Having a bad capital/subcapital ratio is lazy, mmkay
Smarty MacGyver
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#529 - 2014-05-09 03:44:56 UTC
I`ve been reading all of the posts for a while now and I suggest we do a little thought experiment here.

Please if you are in a WH PvP corp that is directly affected by this changes write down your own version and line of thought with reasoning behind it as this provides better feedback for a developer than throwing the "You have no idea of WH PvP Bullshit" at everyone.

Version A)

The change will be made, BU & QEX and the rest of the bigger WH Alliances cry in outrage like they already do and continue to blame CCP and its developers to have ruined their prefered playstyle of sitting around in POSes and waiting for WH activity to show in the chain they scanned X Days / X Hours ago and keep blaming the Dev`s and their votes WH CSM not knowing a thing about the game they develop.

Some people will quit over this, the rest adapts as we players usually do when there are big changes to a speciifc playstyle we enjoy and keep going. How, remains to be seen.

As the bigger WH PvP entities said themselves with the change and the W-Space Risk / Reward structure out of balance now new people will stream into Wormholes across the board C1 - C6 to make ISK, saturating the W-Space landscape with new opportunities for the established WH PvP Corps to PvP and giving them a better chance to find new prey in a more reasonable time as there is a lot more activity in all over W-Space right now. But they have to actively work for it now, making it a much more satisfying experience to actually kill something.

CCP monitors the aftermath of the changes closely, with blue loot prices dropping and WH Farmers outsmarting WH PvP groups because of the way they can protect their holes ( Closing & Instant Signature Monitoring ) CCP decides that the changes rather drastically alter the wormhole experience for both groups ( PVE & PVP ) as Farmers get less ISK for the same amount of time spent in W-Space shooting sleepers because a lot more people are farming blue loot now.

Therefore CCP Fozzie's idea of delayed signatures comes into play and CCP decides to implement the feature to support the WH PvP groups in having a better chance to create content and a lot more Risk for the PvE groups.

WH PvP entities suddenly praise CCP for their awesome vision of the Game, send beer, hookers and chocolates in Proteus shape to Fozzie and build corbexx a monument right besides the one we already have from the secret wormhole PvP RMT fund showing his middle finger in the direction of north north-west.

Rolling holes for targets is now a much more rewarding and easier task.
With a lot more targets now due to the changed Risk / Reward structure by taking away the NPC API kills and implementing delayed signatures the WH PvPers squealing in joy like little pigs and patting themselves on the back for all the "awesome Marauder & Capital kills" they are getting left and right with their 20+ T3 gangs that sit right next door to the farmers.

And life for WH PvPers was good once again.

This change essentially meant three things:

A) Everyone can be attacked by something cloaky at any times and most likely he`ll have a bunch of friends in warp already when they do.

B) The boring times of sitting in a POS and waiting for Siggy to show activity are over, a much more active playstyle got enforced and with the changes CCP implemented after taking away the NPC data from the API

C) The risk / reward ratio gets raised significantly

But when there is light, there is also shadow.
PvE groups crashed back into reality when they realised that the holy land of ISK farming turned into hell with 20+ T3 gangs constantly ripping them a new one.

So they adapted.
As we learned countless times before if people adapt they do things differently but the most important is they`ll fly different ships.

People will fly in cheaper ships and most groups will stop using capitals at all probably, they will come up with new ideas and doctrines to replace their dual boxing marauders and battleships in C4s with cheap and easy to replace stuff if they can even afford to loose them at all over and over again.

Farming fleets will get bigger and plexing baits will become a much more effective and usual thing because it`s way easier to bait and counter-drop in your own system than rolling holes all day to get PvP.

Finally it will also not only become quite a bit harder for the lower class WHs to constantly generate income with PvE content but also for Corps in C5 / C6 as the only time efficient and effective way to run sites in there are capital escalations.

Who just became a lot more risky. I think most of the C5 / C6 groups are able to fleet a proper composition that fits through a 3B hole and massacre a small escalation fleet.

But as I said before, the defending group is at advantage and can bring whatever size of capital fleet they want while the attackers have to take care of mass issues.

The consequence, suddenly large groups / corps will gain a huge advantage over smaller ones and will be the only one running capital escalations properly shifting the wealth of all WH inhabitants a large percentage in the direction of the big WH PvP corps.

For PvE people it`s simple. If you can`t beat them, join them. So a lot of these carebears and farmers you despise so much would end up in your corp doing a bit of pew while silently farming your escalations with their solo quad account setup.

In the end the ripple effect you set loose by constantly nagging and distrusting the game designers in the future of the sandbox will not make any good changes for your WH PvP at all.

Farmers will either join your corps or put together large groups themselves to safely escalate.
The lower wormholes will be infested with stuff you don`t want to shoot because C3 Drakes are a lot less fun to shoot than C3 T3s farming.

And finally you`ll be only doing PvP against shiny targets with each other.



Smarty MacGyver
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#530 - 2014-05-09 03:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Smarty MacGyver
Version B)

CCP decides you guys are completely right and removing the NPC API kills would be a terrible mistake.
After BU & QEX performing a week-long logoffski party to celebrate, FoxFour gets punished by cleaning & polishing the EvE Monument on Livestream covered in bird seed.

Two weeks later after a traumatic experience with seagulls that will scar him for life, life in W-Space is business as usual.
WH PvP alliances sitting in their poses waiting for Siggy pings and patting themselves on the back for getting "awesome kills" that way.

CCP Fozzie scared about the punishment FoxFour received from Hilmar delays the delayed signatures to after the Kronos release in a short statement, but because of the pure pressure John Caldr and his Super Wormhole Adventurers Group or in short [SWAG] puts on CCP by spamming the forums once again that WH PvPers are still at a disadvantage and should be informed by devs personally when anything worth shooting logging in Fozzie gives in to the SWAG and delayed signatures are released in a hotfix.

Now, that W-Space has become a place where everyone can be ganked by cloaky stuff at any time without the slightest chance of defense most of the farmers get fed up after exploding in glorious fireballs for a week and move back to Nullsec & K-Space or simply fly cheap **** to waste the PvP alliances time. WH PvPers keep shooting 4 man fleet of drakes for a while before they realise this is not the PvP they are looking for. Also as the bigger groups are the only ones flying capital escalations any longer they decide to go for a non-agression pact to keep their income for PvP activities flowing. Unfortunately you don't loose much T3s to battlecruisers and therefore it gets even worse to pretend to farm ISK for something you are not having to spend ISK on anymore at all because your gang hardly dies to anything or engages other groups in fear or retaliation and eviction.

Also half the corps / alliances either moved down to lower WHs because their members got back to other parts of the space or simply left, which left the elite WH PvP alliances with even less activity in siggy and noone to play with.

WH PvP alliances keep complaining about how CCP doesn`t make any changes to W-Space and how nobody cares about them.

W-Space keeps being a low-saturated part of the space and with the T3 rework incoming that specializes them even more for wormhole tasks noone keeps buying blue loot anymore, because noone wants to live in W-Space where it is impossible to make the same ISK / H as Hisec incursioning or nullsec afk plexing but with a lot more risk to loose anything you fly in there due to 3rd party based intel tools and delayed signatures the wormhole community kept pressing so much for.
Sith1s Spectre
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#531 - 2014-05-09 04:28:39 UTC
See - for me the solution is simple - remove the instant sig overlay spawn thing and make everyone have to use probes to find/see signatures and I wouldn't have a problem with the changes.

But as it is the PvE guys in WH space have it too easy and this will only make things easier for them.

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2014-05-09 05:06:25 UTC
Something about an abyss and staring into it too long.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133

ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#533 - 2014-05-09 05:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Post of kill board link was removed.
Post of attack on CCP personnel was removed.

Forum rule 34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
Forum rule 30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#534 - 2014-05-09 07:43:11 UTC
Noname alts and goonies talk about whine and tears, besides this way is ultraproductive, the list of participants clearly represents who is agree to the "fix": bunch of trolls and butthurting carebears. It will be interesting to see what side CCP choose, force players to evaluate or benefit degradation and laziness.
Calsys
Monks of War
#535 - 2014-05-09 08:05:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Calsys
stop whining please

just rollin' holes as it did before Big smileBig smile
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#536 - 2014-05-09 08:12:56 UTC
RudinV wrote:
Noname alts and goonies talk about whine and tears, besides this way is ultraproductive, the list of participants clearly represents who is agree to the "fix": bunch of trolls and butthurting carebears. It will be interesting to see what side CCP choose, force players to evaluate or benefit degradation and laziness.


You're literally the only one butthurt in this thread, mate, and if your posts would have made any sense at all, CCP would take note. But all you can do is namecalling, baseless chestbeating and whining, and nobody takes you seriously.

Anyway, you'll adapt and life will go on, have fun o7

calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#537 - 2014-05-09 08:32:11 UTC
On a more serious note. I support this change. CCP has a history of altering mechanics that is considered broken even if they are cause of emergent gameplay. From the very beginning. Emergent gameplay is not a valid argument for leaving broken mechanics broken. m0o and jump api in wh is but a few examples. Furthermore this will have very little impact on wh's as a whole. Spreadsheets will be made in overlords and things continue as always.

Another reason I support this change is because the api data make people lazy. You dont need dscan to check if a wh is active with this api data.

Furthermore. Everyone claiming the majority of wormhole players in wspace is in favour or disfavour of this change is just plain wrong. Majority of players dont care. They have this data already through 3rd party and really dont use it in the same way as i.e. BU. Majority of players dont care enough to make a forum post even. So for most people this wont matter much. BU/QEX will still find targets and people will still fear them.
RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#538 - 2014-05-09 08:43:11 UTC
calaretu wrote:
On a more serious note. I support this change. CCP has a history of altering mechanics that is considered broken even if they are cause of emergent gameplay. From the very beginning. Emergent gameplay is not a valid argument for leaving broken mechanics broken. m0o and jump api in wh is but a few examples. Furthermore this will have very little impact on wh's as a whole. Spreadsheets will be made in overlords and things continue as always.

Another reason I support this change is because the api data make people lazy. You dont need dscan to check if a wh is active with this api data.

Furthermore. Everyone claiming the majority of wormhole players in wspace is in favour or disfavour of this change is just plain wrong. Majority of players dont care. They have this data already through 3rd party and really dont use it in the same way as i.e. BU. Majority of players dont care enough to make a forum post even. So for most people this wont matter much. BU/QEX will still find targets and people will still fear them.

So u think, now we roll the hole, go in, check data and leave it without even checking dscan? Priceless representative I can admit. And kungfu, strangers advices are the most important right?
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#539 - 2014-05-09 09:23:21 UTC
An example of why this change is a good thing.

Yesterday evening I found a target in a c2, 4 or so jumps down the chain.

I didn't find it by seeing a green dot on tripwire. I found it because of the following chain of events:

1. I was in losec, there were 2 sigs (one of them my entrance) and +2 on local chat. Checking d-scan there were probes in the air.
2. the probes vanished and 30 seconds later, so did one of the characters in local. He didn't go through my exit because I was there watching it.
3. I quickly scanned out the other sig, finding it to be a wormhole.
4. jumping in, I saw probes on D again. They were there for a while so I figured he was scanning out all 10 sigs. This either meant:
4a. he was a forward scout for a wh pvp corp (but character info didnt fit)
4b. he was looking to work in sigs rather than anoms to be safe (a good sign)
4c. he was just being thorough.
5. once the probes vanished (eventually), there was a pause - patience is important at these times.
6. and then there was a drake on d-scan, and wrecks started to appear.
7. now using d-scan I had a fairly good bead on where he was, one quick combat probe cycle will get a drake to 100%
8. sure enough, found him in a relic site in one scan. none the wiser to my presence.

And that, children, is how you will get w-space ganks when the pathetically easy free intel has been removed from the API - by actually being there and putting in the work.

I predict that Darwinian principles will eventually force lazy, whinging w-space gank-monkeys out of w-space, leaving it to the pros.

w-space will be better for it. We might even start to get some reasonable fights.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#540 - 2014-05-09 09:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Invictus
Smarty MacGyver wrote:
I`ve been reading all of the posts for a while now and I suggest we do a little thought experiment here.

Please if you are in a WH PvP corp that is directly affected by this changes write down your own version and line of thought with reasoning behind it as this provides better feedback for a developer than throwing the "You have no idea of WH PvP Bullshit" at everyone.



Agreed. However the number of people commenting on this topic who probably never been to WH and conduct philosophical masturb***** of what WH should and should not be is just silly. The idea the Devs propose is great - anything that requires more player interaction and less laziness is good.

However we WH guys are interested in practice. The npc loss in the WH tells me if there is anything going on in it what is the estimated strength of the corp. There are so many uninhabited or barley used WHs that sometimes, even with current system, u are unable to find a good fight. And while I am interested in killing anything that I can, it's much more fun for me to get an even PvP with an equivalent corp, then to blast helpless farmers.

So with current system I can just close a sparsely populated, unused WH and search for a better fight, leaving small corps alone. Now if I will be forced to scout every damn WH I will kill anything I come across to make my efforts worthwhile.

Those are mine concerns - I don't say that what Devs propose is outright a bad thing, but it does ad a lot of randomness to WH fight. Is it how it supposed to be? I don’t agree - WH environment is renowned for heaving a lot fair fights I would like to keep it that way. Don’t confuse uncertainty with chaos.

So I just ask Devs to closely look at feedback after this change is made and consider reverting it if number of large scale engagements in WH drops.